Why do Christians so easily submit to atheists?

[Abbigaelann]

Wow. I found that I’d better not read more of the other comments as I find them more than a bit distressing.

As a Catholic Christian, true, we have a lot of ‘chaff’. But then again, we have boocoos of wonderful folks, but like in the United States with politics, only the loud get heard? I know little of your faith, but I do know the Shiite brand scares me.

I am Christian, but I believe in evolution, actually thinking they go hand in hand very well. If ‘a day is like unto a thousand years, and a thousand years is like unto a day’ in comparison of time of heaven and earth…then we have relativity. If we go to ‘as it was in the beginning, it is now and ever shall be, world without end’ we get to the continuum, don’t we? So are we caving in? Unfortunately we have many people limited in their education teaching, who do not wish to answer questions regarding these types of ‘dilemma’ .

As far as gays go, please see the view in the catechism about how these people should be treated : From the Catholic Catechism: Chastity and homosexuality

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

On a personal note regarding gay ‘marriages’…I don’t like the idea. I am all for love. I am all for two people in love having a commitment. But considering what marriage means, and God is to be in the ceremony, I would prefer if gays called a lifetime partnership commitment something else, as the word marriage just doesn’t work! And with what marriage has come to mean in this country, one would think that they would want to call it something else without all the negative stigmas that go with!

My point to atheists… have you ever told anyone that you love them? We believe that God is love. So, if you tell someone that you love them, in which way are you lying to them? That you really do believe in God or that you really don’t love that person?

 

[KP3243]

I think the biggest difference between Christians and Muslims more specifically Catholic Christians is that the dignity of the human person is the utmost importance to Catholics. Killing or harming people is an assault on human dignity if someone says something offensive about Jesus I have to correct them and tell them it is offensive but I don’t have the right to even touch them. When we say the Our Father, we are in fact asking God to forgive us exactly how we forgive people who hurt us during our earthly lives. The more merciful you are and charitable you are the more mercy you will receive and you never know what the larger picture is so we should never play God. JRR Tolkien who infused Catholic teaching in his writing hits on this and how it plays out when he wrote The Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit. Bilbo Baggins has mercy for Gollum which later on helps Frodo Baggins. Even the most minor act of charity can pay off in dividends in the larger picture that could never be anticipated. By showing charity (in the form of mercy) towards Gollum, Bilbo’s actions prompt Gandalf to later chide Frodo for his wish that Gollum had been killed. In emphasizing that we simple creatures should avoid “playing God” so to speak, he tells Frodo “do not be so eager to deal in death and judgment.” This is also why Catholics can so easily adapt to democracy and Muslims can’t. Look at the former Soviet States, all the Catholic countries had no problems switching to the Soviet dictatorship almost immediately , the Muslim countries struggle with the democratic process.

 

[Tom22]

You know now that Rushdie’s book is wrong, but only because of the uproar, so it is not likely you’d agree with his ideas if you read it because you know it is against the essence of Islam - mission accomplished.

I really don’t get why many Christians feel the need to defend Rushdie, and his subsequent knighthood like they do. I mean is their disdain for Islam so that they result to excusing such wretchedness? It’s not even like one has to support a death sentence for Rushdie to know that what he did was inexcusable. Muslims/Christians/Jews may differ theologically on many things, but I would think that any person of faith would at least be able to see error in Rushdie’s ways.

 

[NoSurrender]

I think the biggest difference between Christians and Muslims more specifically Catholic Christians is that the dignity of the human person is the utmost importance to Catholics. Killing or harming people is an assault on human dignity if someone says something offensive about Jesus I have to correct them and tell them it is offensive but I don’t have the right to even touch them. When we say the Our Father, we are in fact asking God to forgive us exactly how we forgive people who hurt us during our earthly lives. The more merciful you are and charitable you are the more mercy you will receive and you never know what the larger picture is so we should never play God. JRR Tolkien who infused Catholic teaching in his writing hits on this and how it plays out when he wrote The Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit. Bilbo Baggins has mercy for Gollum which later on helps Frodo Baggins. Even the most minor act of charity can pay off in dividends in the larger picture that could never be anticipated. By showing charity (in the form of mercy) towards Gollum, Bilbo’s actions prompt Gandalf to later chide Frodo for his wish that Gollum had been killed. In emphasizing that we simple creatures should avoid “playing God” so to speak, he tells Frodo “do not be so eager to deal in death and judgment.” This is also why Catholics can so easily adapt to democracy and Muslims can’t. Look at the former Soviet States, all the Catholic countries had no problems switching to the Soviet dictatorship almost immediately , the Muslim countries struggle with the democratic process.

Exactly, Another main difference is they cannot spread their religion by any other means other than the sword, we however have GOD on our side.

 

[Brendan_64]

Then in Rome, Christians never really had the power to fight back.

You really do not understand the message of Jesus. Read the Beatitudes in Matthew 5:1-12

But then when we fast forward 1000+ years, we find that Christians were actively defending their faith, people were even executed for blasphemy.

These actions were counter to the teachings of Christ

I don’t understand what is wrong with you, is it inferiority complex? Would God look at you with pride, when he saw you just sitting back while you were fully aware that God’s word was being turned on its head, deformed and twisted?

Pride is the greatest of all sins. God does not sin. Our God is a humble, merciful God.

You know now that Rushdie’s book is wrong, but only because of the uproar, so it is not likely you’d agree with his ideas if you read it because you know it is against the essence of Islam - mission accomplished.

I have read it. I saw nothing whatsoever in it that warranted the over-reaction. It’s just a book. It certainly does not warrant a death sentence.

So let me ask you the question that the OP refused to answer. Do you think the fatwah issued on Salman Rushdie was justified? Do you think he deserves to be killed? Would you kill him if you had the chance? Or do you condemn those who placed the fatwah on him? Do you condemn those who called for him to be killed?

Stop waffling about and bigging up tough reactions. Where do you stand on the fatwah against Salman Rushdie? Do you support it or do you condemn it? And if you support it would you kill him yourself if you had the chance?

 

[jakasaki]

Wow…you said that guanophone… Our own book, the holy Qur’an permits us to marry Christians and Jews, why would we kill them?

You can ONLY marry Christian & Jewish women ONLY if they convert to Islam.

And without a choice, THEY **must **raise their children muslim

 

[KP3243]

guanophore, where did you get the idea that under Islam it is permitted to kill Christians?

A lot of people here seem to imply that Christianity is the beacon of tolerance and compassion and Islam is not tolerant at all. What did all those victims of the KKK think of this Christian tolerance and compassion? Or victims of Bush’s war crimes? You see, there are those that foul it up in the name of all religions, but atheists like Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins have virtually declared war on Western Christianity because they have not been made afraid to do so. If you are okay with an entire generation being brought up to think that belief in a Creator is just like belief in the easter bunny and tooth fairy then how can Christians in Europe complain that Muslims are taking over and out breeding them?

Ask any Irish Catholic how nice the Protestant KKK was to them in the early 1900s my family got crosses burnt on their font lawn for decades and Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict condemned President Bush. We have the right to free speech which is a right given by God. Europe is a disaster right now however Catholics in both Europe and the US have much higher birth rates than the rest of the population. Not for anything no one goes after Islam in the US in an effort not to discriminate and get blown up and people have been saying God is not real for 2000 years and yet here the Catholics are.

 

[expounder]

You really do not understand the message of Jesus. Read the Beatitudes in Matthew 5:1-12
These actions were counter to the teachings of Christ
Pride is the greatest of all sins. God does not sin. Our God is a humble, merciful God.

I have read it. I saw nothing whatsoever in it that warranted the over-reaction. It’s just a book. It certainly does not warrant a death sentence.

So let me ask you the question that the OP refused to answer. Do you think the fatwah issued on Salman Rushdie was justified? Do you think he deserves to be killed? Would you kill him if you had the chance? Or do you condemn those who placed the fatwah on him? Do you condemn those who called for him to be killed?

Stop waffling about and bigging up tough reactions. Where do you stand on the fatwah against Salman Rushdie? Do you support it or do you condemn it? And if you support it would you kill him yourself if you had the chance?

Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini(Shia) issued the fatwa, i’m a sunni, why would i have to follow that fatwa?

 

[KP3243]

Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini(Shia) issued the fatwa, i’m a sunni, why would i have to follow that fatwa?

Kind of like how the Protestant bishops are going along with gay marriage and abortion why are you assuming all Christians support this? Catholics cannot support either and none of our Cardinals or Bishops have, in fact they been outspokenly opposed to both.

 

[agnes_therese]

I really don’t get why many Christians feel the need to defend Rushdie, and his subsequent knighthood like they do. I mean is their disdain for Islam so that they result to excusing such wretchedness?

Saying that someone shouldn’t be murdered for writing a book is in no way the same thing as disdain for Islam. There is a lot of disdain for the “we can kill anyone who disagrees with us” mentality.

 

[Tom22]

Kind of like how the Protestant bishops are going along with gay marriage and abortion why are you assuming all Christians support this? Catholics cannot support either and none of our Cardinals or Bishops have, in fact they been outspokenly opposed to both.

In the UK both Catholic and Protestants support these things, I even saw a Catholic on a social network site the other day joke about how ‘serious religious people’ are backwards and should let the gays have as many children as they want if it’s a loving home.

According to this link seven out of 10 British Catholics are in favour of it:

independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/most-uk-catholics-support-abortion-and-use-of-contraception-2083291.html

 

[KP3243]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom22
I really don’t get why many Christians feel the need to defend Rushdie, and his subsequent knighthood like they do. I mean is their disdain for Islam so that they result to excusing such wretchedness?​

Because man has inalienable rights given to him by God you can’t persecute people who disagree with you, even if they are wrong. The only time this even becomes an option is if you, your family or country are violently attacked you have the right to defend yourself only after you have exhausted every peaceful means. We also have faith in God that he will sustain us during our trials because he loves us.

 

[KP3243]

In the UK both Catholic and Protestants support these things, I even saw a Catholic on a social network site the other day joke about how ‘serious religious people’ are backwards and should let the gays have as many children as they want if it’s a loving home.

According to this link seven out of 10 British Catholics are in favour of it:

independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/most-uk-catholics-support-abortion-and-use-of-contraception-2083291.html

It’s no secret that atheists like George Sorros create “Catholic” groups like Catholics for Choice that are completely not Catholic and run by liberal secularists. The US Conference of Catholic Bishops have condemned groups like this and warned the Catholic faithful not to be fooled by groups like this. The US newspaper the National Catholic Reporter constantly writes stuff that is against Catholic teaching and are constantly condemned by the USCCB too.

 

[KP3243]

catholicleague.org/democrats-push-phony-catholic-group/

ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=91674

michellemalkin.com/2008/10/22/soros-funding-pro-obama-catholic-groups/

lifenews.com/2008/10/20/nat-4472/

patheos.com/blogs/catholicnews/2013/05/donohue-says-irs-probe-triggered-by-catholics-united/

catholicleague.org/george-soros-funds-catholic-left/

Moral of the story beware groups clamping to be Catholic when they are supporting things that are against Catholic teaching because they are not actually Catholic. It is extraordinarily sad that this happens because it confuses some Catholics.

 

[Augustine3]

I do not see that the Rushdie and the cartoon protests made Islam look barbaric and cruel at all. Rather I see it that Muslims are standing up for what we believe in a world full of secularization and materialism, and dismissal of anyone who believes in a Creator to be childlike and uneducated. Not a day goes by where some Hollywood comedian or celebrity doesn’t take to Twitter or TV to deride Jesus, Noah and the flood, the Bible. They do this with Muhammad and Qu’ran too but to a less harsher degree because they know that it is not tolerated in Islam. I remember when Madonna wiped her feet on a Bible to support gay rights, safe in the knowledge that she could get away with it because she knew the Christian reaction would be timid, and any Christian that spoke out against her would be dismissed by her fans as a ‘fundamentalist’.

Yes people mock us Christians…yeah and? So what? Does it tarnish our faith? No. Does it change the objective truth? No.

We Christians are called to respond to these people with charity and prayer, not violence. As a matter of fact we endure these insults with joy. We are happy to endure suffering for the sake of our master Jesus who suffered before us as well the prophets.

*Blessed are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of evil against you (falsely) because of me. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward will be great in heaven. Thus they persecuted the prophets who were before you. – Matthew 5:11-12
*
I know this is foreign to you and it’s hard for you to swallow. We only ask you respect our beliefs. Your time would be more beneficial in this forum if you strived to learn about our faith rather than criticise it.

 

[devoutchristian]

Really? Had you considered what life for you would be like (what little of it you might have left) under an Islamic dictator? Do you realize that killing Christians is considered “just” in such a system?

What are you babbling about? I never mentioned an Islamic dictator. Are you saying that you would prefer an evil government to a just one depending on the form of government?

 

[guanophore]

guanophore, where did you get the idea that under Islam it is permitted to kill Christians?

By reading the Quran, and by listening to Muslim teachings. Islam considers Christianity a religion of infidels, because we believe that Jesus is the son of God. We are thought to be “people of the book” (Bible based).

KORAN commands to kill infidels:

Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98

On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161

Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191

Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah’s religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God’s entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39

Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.

But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54

Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah’s religion reigns supreme - 8:39

O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. - 8:65

It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - 8:67

Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3

When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5

Believers! Know that idolators are unclean. - 9:28

Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.

*Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. - 9:41

O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey’s end. - 9:73

Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123 (different translation:
Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers…

Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell. - 33:60

Unbelievers are enemies of Allah and they will roast in hell. - 41:14

When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4
(different translation: ) When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads, and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly.

Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another. - 48:25

Muhammad is Allah’s apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. Through them, Allah seeks to enrage the unbelievers. - 48:29

Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate. - 66:9

The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. - 98:51*

I have also been told that “Islam” means “peace” and it refers to the peace that a person has when they submit to Allah and obey His prophet.

A lot of people here seem to imply that Christianity is the beacon of tolerance and compassion and Islam is not tolerant at all. What did all those victims of the KKK think of this Christian tolerance and compassion? Or victims of Bush’s war crimes? You see, there are those that foul it up in the name of all religions,

You are right of course, but you will not find in Teachings of Christ any warrant for the bad behaviors of these persons who have sullied the Christian witness.

Neither are we promoting what they have done, as you are promoting violence on this thread.

but atheists like Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins have virtually declared war on Western Christianity because they have not been made afraid to do so.

Fear does not make good converts. If you look into your own history you will see that Muslims were forced by Crusaders to be baptized as Christians or be put the sword. One cannot change the human heart by using fear and intimidation. One may gain compliance, but the one who is bullied into submission will always strike back at some point.Your methods will only produce continued enmity and conflict.

If you are okay with an entire generation being brought up to think that belief in a Creator is just like belief in the easter bunny and tooth fairy then how can Christians in Europe complain that Muslims are taking over and out breeding them?

It sounds like you believe that Christian parents bring up their children to believe these things.

And even if Europe was full of nominal Christians that have become pagan, we would still not condone invasion, rape, and murder because they don’t want to become muslim.

 

[guanophore]

Then in Rome, Christians never really had the power to fight back.  But then when we fast forward 1000+ years, we find that Christians were actively defending their faith, people were even executed for blasphemy.

That changes nothing. Jesus still never told His disciples to act in such a way.

First give me examples.

You need examples of violent actions done by Muslims?!?!?!

I don’t understand what is wrong with you, is it inferiority complex? Would God look at you with pride, when he saw you just sitting back while you were fully aware that God’s word was being turned on its head, deformed and twisted? IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO SPREAD THE TRUTH

You are quite right that Christians need to stand up for the faith. It is our responsibility.
Jesus said that the world will know we are Christians by our love, and love speaks the Truth.

and clamp down on lies. You know now that Rushdie’s book is wrong, but only because of the uproar, so it is not likely you’d agree with his ideas if you read it because you know it is against the essence of Islam - mission accomplished.

You sound very angry expounder, and you probably have a lot to be angry about. Personally, I have never read his book, and have no interest in reading it. Punishing people, or killing them, because I don;t like what they write is against my religion.

Your assumption that I would agree with it’s contents is probably wrong too, because I am not “against” your religion. I dont find the precepts of Islam adopted by violent fundamentalitsts conducive to a peaceful civilization because they is intolerant of differences.

 

[guanophore]

Wow…you said that guanophone… Our own book, the holy Qur’an permits us to marry Christians and Jews, why would we kill them?

Perhaps you could be so kind as to post the relevant section so that we can become educated? I thought you could only marry them after they are conquered and enslaved (converted?).

I really don’t get why many Christians feel the need to defend Rushdie, and his subsequent knighthood like they do.

As one who has not, and knows no one that has, it is impossible for me to say.

What I do defend is the right of people to write and say what they want, even if I dont’ like it, and if I find it personally offensive.

I really don’t get why many Christians feel the need to defend Rushdie, and his subsequent knighthood like they do. I mean is their disdain for Islam so that they result to excusing such wretchedness? It’s not even like one has to support a death sentence for Rushdie to know that what he did was inexcusable. Muslims/Christians/Jews may differ theologically on many things, but I would think that any person of faith would at least be able to see error in Rushdie’s ways.

I mean is their disdain for Islam so that they result to excusing such wretchedness?

Personally, I thinkif it was not Islam, it would be something else. People with disdain in theri hearts will find a place to focus it. It says a lot more about him than it does about Islam.

It’s not even like one has to support a death sentence for Rushdie to know that what he did was inexcusable. Muslims/Christians/Jews may differ theologically on many things, but I would think that any person of faith would at least be able to see error in Rushdie’s ways.

Of course. But Jesus told us to pray for our enemies, not put them to death.

 

[KP3243]

Look at the response of Pope John Paul II after Mehmet Ali Ağca tried to assinate him in 1981. Following the shooting, Pope John Paul II asked people to “pray for my brother [Ağca] …whom I have sincerely forgiven.” Luke 6:36 Be merciful, Just as your Father is merciful.