M
MaHeRsHaLaL
Guest
I heard on the Catholic Answers live show that people who don’t believe in Christ are going to be in heaven.
How is that?
How is that?
Why do I here Catholics saying that non-christians can go to heaven?
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M
mchale
Guest
Well, I didn’t see the show in question, so I can’t address specifically what was said, but I think I can explain what I think they were trying to get across (BTW, this might be better asked in the Apologetics section).
Essentially the Church teaches that Christ died to save all men. As Catholics we believe that those who explicitly reject Christ when they know the truth of Christ will be excluded from the Joys of Heaven (i.e. sent to Hell). That being said, there are a large number of people on Earth who have never heard of Christ, or having heard of him, because of cultural, personal or family background are unable to know him. While we cannot be sure of their fate (just as we cannot be sure in our own), we can trust in God’s Justice and Mercy and have hope that such people might be allowed a chance to know and accept the truth of Christ at the moment of death and thus be saved.
There is also the notion of an implicit belief in Christ. In some respects a person might have an internal sense of Christ without knowing what Christ is explicitly. The Prophets and the Patriarchs of the Old Testament had this sense and they would be saved through this implicit belief.
Anyway, I hope that helps answer your question.
–
Bill
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MaHeRsHaLaL
Guest
But those people who lived and died in ignorance would never have been baptized.
It just seems strange to me that God could judge some so harshly while giving a free pass to others.
That seems very un-just.
It just seems strange to me that God could judge some so harshly while giving a free pass to others.
That seems very un-just.
C
Contarini
Guest
A
AquinasT
Guest
The precise Biblical verse escapes me right now, but isn’t it a Biblical principle that - to those who are given much, more will be expected?
Not everyone is born into the same situation, but each will be given the grace necessary to achieve salvation. It is up to us to make use of God’s grace depending on our lot in life.
Who are we to question what God has given to others? Those who are called late to work in His vineyard will be paid the same wages when the day is done.
Thomas
Not everyone is born into the same situation, but each will be given the grace necessary to achieve salvation. It is up to us to make use of God’s grace depending on our lot in life.
Who are we to question what God has given to others? Those who are called late to work in His vineyard will be paid the same wages when the day is done.
Thomas
T
tmango
Guest
Those that have not been baptised and have not been introduced to Jesus can still achieve eternal life in heaven depending on their disposition to a higher power. It is called baptism by blood, such as what happens to an aborted fetus that has not had the good fortune to be baptised prior to being murdered in his mother’s womb. I believe I heard this from one of Fr Corapi’s teachings on the catechism.
I agree completely.
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I agree completely.
R
ralphinal
Guest
Not all of any faith are going to heaven, just like not all of any group are going to hell. There are lots of individual issues involved.
Here is how it works. First, did the person have the chance to learn the truth of Jesus Christ and of his Church? If no, then they are judged by how they responded to special grace in their lives. If yes, then did they accept it or not? If no, was it their own fault? In other words, did they agree that Jesus is who we say he was and that the Catholic Church is his Church and we are all called to it? If the answer is yes to both, they must be Catholic. If it is yes to one and no to the other, then they have other issues.
As another poster said, to those that much is given, much is expected.
Here is how it works. First, did the person have the chance to learn the truth of Jesus Christ and of his Church? If no, then they are judged by how they responded to special grace in their lives. If yes, then did they accept it or not? If no, was it their own fault? In other words, did they agree that Jesus is who we say he was and that the Catholic Church is his Church and we are all called to it? If the answer is yes to both, they must be Catholic. If it is yes to one and no to the other, then they have other issues.
As another poster said, to those that much is given, much is expected.
M
MaHeRsHaLaL
Guest
Those who are exposed to the truth but do not accept it.
If an individual lives in a time and place when the knowledge of Christ exists and does not accept it, then he is condemned.
If an individual lives in a time and place where the knowledge of Christ is not present then he is given a free pass into heaven due to his ignorance.
Neither individual chose to be born in their respective time and place and yet one cannot fail while the other is subject to a test.
Perhaps the ignorant one would have rejected Christ had he been given the chance.
M
MarcoPolo
Guest
Here is a more official statement from the Catechism on the matter:
“Outside the Church there is no salvation”
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”
“Outside the Church there is no salvation”
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”
C
Contarini
Guest
You misunderstand. No one teaches that people who have not heard of Christ get a free pass.
The point is that someone who has not heard of Christ, but implicitly believes in Christ (i.e., responds to the truth that they do know and would respond to the truth of Christ if they knew it) can be saved. The same would apply (though this is a bit more controversial) to someone who has heard of Christ but for whatever reason sincerely does not believe Christianity to be true.
Edwin
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ralphinal
Guest
the Church does not exactly teach this. The person must have been taught it in such a way that the only logical conclusion is that Jesus was God. They may not accept it through no fault of their own.
Again, this is not what the Church teaches. They must respond to the grace that God gives them. Some have speculated that it is based on God knowing that, if exposed to the truth, how they would respond.
Again, the Church says that we are judged according to what we were given. God knows. Some who had no chance ot learn will make it, some won’t.
I hope that this helps
M
MaHeRsHaLaL
Guest
I understand now. I’ve always been an absolutist when reading the scriptures, in this case John 3:5. But the thought that all truth is contained in the scriptures is not a belief of the Catholic church.
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ralphinal
Guest
I understand what you mean about John 3:5. I really do, but that would mean that God created millions, perhaps billions, of people who had absolutely no chance to get to heaven. Then, you must remember that God wills the salvation of all men and that Christ died for all. There has to be a way all of this fits together.
I am a little confused what the point about all truth not being in scripture has to do with this topic. All church teachings can in some way be defended with scriptures.
J
jmcrae
Guest
I think the idea that God is outside the Sacraments, and can thus do whatever He wants to do, has been blown out of all proportion.
We have no evidence whatsoever that God has ever, in fact, done anything of the sort. No one should depend for their salvation on the idea that God will give them a “free pass” because they didn’t have the ability to know any better. Nor should we be canonizing the unborn who never received baptism.
We have no evidence whatsoever that God has ever, in fact, done anything of the sort. No one should depend for their salvation on the idea that God will give them a “free pass” because they didn’t have the ability to know any better. Nor should we be canonizing the unborn who never received baptism.
R
ralphinal
Guest
It may not seem like it, but I agree. If the Sacraments did not matter, we would not have them. We just have to reconcile those who had absolutely no chance at all to learn with the mercy of God. I would point out that ignorance of the law is no defense.
G
Genesis315
Guest
God alone can pronounce condemnation on an individual soul. If someone has abandoned their will to His (that is, put their faith in Him alone), but for some reason outside their control do not have explicit knowledge of Jesus or even deny Him because they are taught He is something else (like a Jew or Muslim), they may have an implict faith in the Logos of God and therefore may be saved.
It bears pointing out, that we do not believe Christians are automatically saved either. This is why missionary work and evangelization is necessary among all people in all places–as we should all be converting ourselves closer and closer to the truth every day, thus becoming more and more close disciples of Christ.
At the end of our lives, He alone will pass judgment on us.
It bears pointing out, that we do not believe Christians are automatically saved either. This is why missionary work and evangelization is necessary among all people in all places–as we should all be converting ourselves closer and closer to the truth every day, thus becoming more and more close disciples of Christ.
At the end of our lives, He alone will pass judgment on us.
J
John_Hiner
Guest
Laudatur Iesus Christus.
Dear MaHeRsHalaL:
You are correct that would be most unjust.
One must beware of this dangerously relativistic intrusion into thinking among some members of the Church. One has to be careful not to understand this as a “free pass,” or as san assertion that anyone will be judged by any other standard than Christ. The casual mode of thought used in modern English when discussing philosophy coupled with the translations of the Church’s statements leads some to apparently assert that a minor possibility has swallowed the whole structure of salvation. This is a mistake.
If you are interested in the complexity of this issue, it might be helpful to read the discussion in a related thread considering whether many or few will be saved: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=214409
It is important to understand the “substance” of salvation and to realize that it is real and demanding.
Pax Christ nobiscum.
John Hiner
C
Contarini
Guest
I don’t understand, in that case, how you could argue that even the position you thought Catholics held was “harsh.” Why is it “harsher” for some to have a “free pass” and others to have a decent chance rather than for some to have a decent chance and others no chance at all (which you seem to believe)? Isn’t it in fact your view that is unbearably harsh? On face value, your accusation of “harshness” looks rather disingenuous.
What I understand the Catholic Church to teach (this is what I believe, but I’m not Catholic) is that God wants everyone to be saved and that we can trust Him to show mercy even beyond the covenanted means of grace, although those means of grace remain His chosen means and thus cannot be despised without grave peril.
Edwin
Z
Zooey
Guest
:yup: My grandmother used to say, that we are" judged according to the light that we have".
There are some dear & wonderful people who have never heard the Name of Jesus, yet they are kind & loving, & serve God the best that they know how…Who am I, to judge them? That is left to God Himself…(And my grandfather liked to say, “I am glad **I **am not in charge of admissions to Heaven!”).
Also, when you read about stories of missionaries who reach parts of the world where, as I say, no one has heard of Jesus, time & again, people will say, “I knew that there had to be a God like that!” or, “Oh, yes, but I never knew His Name was Jesus; just that God loved us all so much!!”
Somehow, there is put into hearts, the knowledge of God, however dim that light may be, and the God Who knows all hearts will judge them. Not me, not you, not anyone… except the
One 
with the nail-scarred hands…
M
MaHeRsHaLaL
Guest
I know that the Catholic church holds tradition with the same respect as scripture, like the assumption of Mary, the perpetual virginity etc…
They are not in the Bible, but they are held as doctrine by the church.
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