Why do liberal Catholics stay in the Church?

[geckomon]

Why do sinners ( all of us ) stay in the church? Same as " liberal " Catholics I believe.

Being a sinner is different from being a person who flat out disagrees with the tenets and teachings of the faith.

A sinner who remains usually does so because they are repentant and gives up of themselves with humility to continue to belong. The so called “liberal” catholic is usually unrepentant of their objections of Church’s teachings and show’s little evidence of shedding of the self when rationalizing their rejections.

 

[DeaconPaulY]

I believe that everyone has the right to their own beliefs, no matter what church they belong to, or whatever. As long as that is what they believe in.
As a Catholic I attend mass on a regular basis and do the best that I can to follow its teachings. However I do have beliefs that do not fit with the Church also. I will have to deal with them at the pearly gates when the time comes.
I think it is wrong to push my beliefs on other people and think a few ways on the topic of abortion. It may be wrong for me, but I have no right to say it is wrong for someone else. It is their right to make that decision themselves. They will deal with the consequences themselves, I can not do that for them either.
I also believe that Laws of man should no in infilltrated with those of a religious faith at all. If that was the case, then someday we will have “Shia” laws impossed on us also. It is not a good idea to open the door to imposing ones beliefs on the masses of those not of your faith. That is why laws should be broadly enough written to accomidate all beliefs. They should have nothing to do with the church. We are not a religious state but a unified Republic that allows people of different beliefs to live togather in peace.

please let me offer you a few things to think about. First of all, I would agree with you that it is wrong to “push” our religion on other people. However, Jesus told us to evangelize the world and to bring everyone into the Church for the salvation of their souls. That should prompt us to lead people to Christ by the way we live our lives and by our words when the opportunities present themselves.

I would disagree completely with you on your thoughts on abortion. Actually, women do not have the right to make that decision for themselves. They yield that right when they decide to have sex because every time they have sex, they run the "risk"of it resulting in the conception of a child of God. The argument over abortion should never have been about the rights of a woman or her body. It has always been in reality, and always will be about the right of the child to live.

As far as imposing religion on the state in terms of laws, I agree with you to the extent that we should never pass laws that require everyone to belong to or practice a particular religion. For example, it would be very wrong for us to pass laws that require everyone to attend Mass on Sunday or abstain from meat on Fridays or go to jail. At the same time however, it is important for religious beliefs to guide secular laws. if religious beliefs had guided secular laws of 1972, Roe v. Wade would’ve never resulted in the murder of over 60 million babies in this country alone. In fact, this very argument is changing our country from one nation under God to a nation free from God. It is resulting in the persecution of our military as well as rules, laws, and mandates like the HHS mandate that literally tramples on the Constitution of the United States.

Peace and Blessings, Deacon Paul

 

[Brendan]

The attribute of randomness, when properly understood from a philosophical perspective, does not stand in opposition to the will of God being worked in the creation of man.

I understand that, but it does stand in opposition to the scientific definition of random

To have a process that has a predetermined result cannot be considered to be either scientifically nor philosophically to be random,

I agree with you that a Catholic can hold that the process of evolution APPEARS to be a random process, but a Catholic must recognize that any differentiation of species cannot actually BE a random process.

 

[sedonaman]

… Some teachings have undergone modfication in emphasis. In addition, some things were informally “taught” or “understood” or even preached, but never codified. Other teachings were matters of open-ended belief (such as Limbo) or matters of discipline (such as Friday abstinence), rather than dogmatic or doctrinal matters.

…

And some teachings were never understood before or after the so-called “change” (e.g., Friday abstinence).

I have asked the OP question of myself many times and this forum at least once. Bottom line: there are probably as many reasons as there are liberals.

 

[kozlosap]

And some teachings were never understood before or after the so-called “change” (e.g., Friday abstinence).

I have asked the OP question of myself many times and this forum at least once. Bottom line: there are probably as many reasons as there are liberals.

 

[vames]

But my question is, what about the average layman? The man or woman who attends Mass weekly, yet his opinion on many things is not in accord with the Church. Why do these folks remain in the Church? You can’t really say that they stay for reasons of influence or power. So what is it?

Two simple answers:

1. Because they are Catholic by virtue of their indelible baptism and nobody can take this away from them.
2. Because they are not slaughtered or burned anymore for heresy. The Church doesn’t try to scare people with anathemas or old-style public excomunications (declaring them “vitandi”) either. One of the few tools which seem to be available now is withdrawing the Eucharist from people who disagree with the Church on various sexual issues of the day (abortion, same-sex marriage). Or, if the person works for a Catholic institution, another tool is firing them.

 

[KSU]

I think the political leanings of the Catholic church are a mixture of traditional conservatism and more left-leaning economically.

I’m quite left-wing, a British republican and the Catholic church appeals to me because of it’s stand on social justice and the poor. Too many conservatives have hijacked Catholicism in the name of greed - something that the church is against.

StranraerHibby, why did you choose “‘The World is full of crashing bores.’ Morrissey” as your signature?

 

[arabic_catholic]

well … I consider myself catholic, I accept the dogmas of the church, and like pope francis , I really hope that the western church would come closer to its people… for the church cant evangelize in a language that is alien to its culture . However , I discovered lately that my views are considered very liberal for many … specially U.S Catholics, although not liberal for me , or for many bishops within the church. I would argue that U.S Catholicism is nothing but a reflection of its culture . and since many evangelicals have joined the church , they influence it deeply, positively and negatively . This site is no exception. I mean when it comes to the bible my views might upset the regular believer , although a fair number (if not the majority ) of catholic theologians stand with me… but I guess freedom of conscience is something sacred and as St. Thomas Aquiance said " “it is better to die excommunicated than to go against one’s conscience” . So like Conservative catholics, Liberal Catholics have a room. The world is bigger than one way of reflecting the same truth .

 

[TheBreak]

I recently read (can’t remember where) that the reason most dissident Catholics stay in the Church is because they realize that if they left then their influence would weaken (i.e. no one would really care what they think). I think this seems reasonable enough with respect to Catholic politicians who support abortion, gay marriage, etc. It also could apply to dissident priests. And even those people in charge of organizations like Catholics for Choice.

But my question is, what about the average layman? The man or woman who attends Mass weekly, yet his opinion on many things is not in accord with the Church. Why do these folks remain in the Church? You can’t really say that they stay for reasons of influence or power. So what is it?

Thanks.

English is not my native language, I’m sorry for any misspellings.

I hope I didn’t understand you wrong but look, the Catholic church is NOT your church to ask why these people are still in the church, you can open church for you and then ask people before they come in if they agree with you or not and according to that you will let them in or not. But as far as I know, the Catholic church is open for everyone, if you agree or disagree with her that is not enough to let you out of it.

 

[Hamlet123]

well … I consider myself catholic, I accept the dogmas of the church, and like pope francis , I really hope that the western church would come closer to its people… for the church cant evangelize in a language that is alien to its culture . However , I discovered lately that my views are considered very liberal for many … specially U.S Catholics, although not liberal for me , or for many bishops within the church. I would argue that U.S Catholicism is nothing but a reflection of its culture . and since many evangelicals have joined the church , they influence it deeply, positively and negatively . This site is no exception. I mean when it comes to the bible my views might upset the regular believer , although a fair number (if not the majority ) of catholic theologians stand with me… but I guess freedom of conscience is something sacred and as St. Thomas Aquiance said " “it is better to die excommunicated than to go against one’s conscience” . So like Conservative catholics, Liberal Catholics have a room. The world is bigger than one way of reflecting the same truth .

Arabic, what are your views that you consider “liberal”? My guess is you are not liberal or conservative, but Catholic; nevertheless, what views of yours make you liberal?

 

[JannyC]

Being a sinner is different from being a person who flat out disagrees with the tenets and teachings of the faith.

Do you believe in the death penalty?

Do you believe in in-vitro fertilization and other artificial methods of conception?

Do you believe that labor unions are an abomination and have no valid place in society?

If you answered “YES” to any of the above questions, then YOU flat out disagree with the tenets and teachings of the Catholic Church.

I am a liberal because I believe in the right of women to make their own choices regarding reproduction, in gender and marriage equality, and in all of the tenets presented in Rerum Novarum I also believe that good works are required for salvation, and tolerance of others’ beliefs and attitudes is implicit in good works and Catholic social justice.

I do not believe in the death penalty.

I do believe in the dignity of all people, regardless of their stations in life.

I am a Catholic because I believe in God, the Father almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried; he descended into hell; on the third day he rose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty; from there he will come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting.

Many of you here may call me a ‘cafeteria Catholic’. I say to you that those who are anti-abortion and pro-death penalty are as much of ‘cafeteria Catholics’ as you consider liberal Catholics to be.

Oh, by the way, during my 17 years of Catholic education (in which I learned the theory of evolution as science), I also learned about how God gave us all free will and a conscience. He wouldn’t have done that if HE didn’t want us to use them.

 

[KSU]

Many of you here may call me a ‘cafeteria Catholic’. I say to you that those who are anti-abortion and pro-death penalty are as much of ‘cafeteria Catholics’ as you consider liberal Catholics to be.

Oh, by the way, during my 17 years of Catholic education (in which I learned the theory of evolution as science), I also learned about how God gave us all free will and a conscience. He wouldn’t have done that if HE didn’t want us to use them.

No, my friend, you did not have a Catholic education. You had an American Catholic education.

But where there is life there is hope.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

I recently read (can’t remember where) that the reason most dissident Catholics stay in the Church is because they realize that if they left then their influence would weaken (i.e. no one would really care what they think). I think this seems reasonable enough with respect to Catholic politicians who support abortion, gay marriage, etc. It also could apply to dissident priests. And even those people in charge of organizations like Catholics for Choice.

But my question is, what about the average layman? The man or woman who attends Mass weekly, yet his opinion on many things is not in accord with the Church. Why do these folks remain in the Church? You can’t really say that they stay for reasons of influence or power. So what is it?

Thanks.

One can intellectually disagree and still obey.
We define ourselves more by what we do than what we say.

As Francis of Assisi was want to say, preach, and if necessary use words.

 

[DeaconPaulY]

Do you believe in the death penalty?

Do you believe in in-vitro fertilization and other artificial methods of conception?

Do you believe that labor unions are an abomination and have no valid place in society?

If you answered “YES” to any of the above questions, then YOU flat out disagree with the tenets and teachings of the Catholic Church.

I am a liberal because I believe in the right of women to make their own choices regarding reproduction, in gender and marriage equality, and in all of the tenets presented in Rerum Novarum I also believe that good works are required for salvation, and tolerance of others’ beliefs and attitudes is implicit in good works and Catholic social justice.

I do not believe in the death penalty.

I do believe in the dignity of all people, regardless of their stations in life.

I am a Catholic because I believe in God, the Father almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried; he descended into hell; on the third day he rose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty; from there he will come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting.

Many of you here may call me a ‘cafeteria Catholic’. I say to you that those who are anti-abortion and pro-death penalty are as much of ‘cafeteria Catholics’ as you consider liberal Catholics to be.

Oh, by the way, during my 17 years of Catholic education (in which I learned the theory of evolution as science), I also learned about how God gave us all free will and a conscience. He wouldn’t have done that if HE didn’t want us to use them.

let’s start at the top. I agree with your statement that Catholics who believe in some tenets of the Catholic faith and do not believe in others could be termed " Cafeteria Catholics". The problem with your statement is that you equate disagreeing with some tenets of Rerum Novarum with the murder of totally and completely innocent human life. I also agree with your statement that people who are pro-life but yet adhere to the validity of capital punishment are not following the teaching of the Catholic Church. but again, there is a huge difference in the degree of guilt connected with the state “murdering” a person who has committed heinous crimes with the murder of a totally vulnerable and completely innocent child of God still in the womb. that is why abortion is called an intrinsic evil because it is always horrendously evil in and of itself, without any consideration to circumstances.

in fact, people who live in a democratic society like the United States and who have the privilege of being able to vote for their leaders, run grave risk to their immortal souls when they even vote for a politician who belongs to the culture of death. The politician, when he votes for any law promoting abortion, incurs some guilt in the slaughter of every child murdered by the effects of that law (God, not us, gets to choose how much). every person who votes for that politician incurs some guilt as well (obviously to a lesser degree) because they are promoting the platform of that candidate when they vote for him or her. Again, God gets to decide the degree of guilt, not us but please don’t be deceived into thinking that we are guilt free because we vote for the candidate for his stance on the economy on the premise that the economy is much more important than life-and-death.

When you talk about gender equality, I hope you are talking about the true equality of men and women and are not trying to validate trans gender atrocities. when you talk about marriage equality, I assume your “dignity of persons” philosophy has room in it for people who frequently commit mortal sins by participating in collaborative masturbation and you think it’s just fine from those people to be raising children. this thinking is wrong on so many levels that I would love to discuss this with you in a private setting.

In summary, the underlying problem here is your statement about free will and conscience. Free will is God’s way of testing us. It is his way of allowing us to accept the gift of our salvation and he gives us the gift of a conscience to help us avoid sin and become as holy as he wants us to be. but there is an obligation on our part to rightly form our consciences so that we use free will effectively and that is why he sent the Holy Spirit to lead the Catholic Church, including the teaching authority of the Magisterium.

If I were you, I would seek out a priest and have very frank, open, and honest discussions about your thoughts and feelings. And by the way, Satan believes in every word of the Apostles Creed. Peace and Blessings, Deacon Paul

 

[Ender]

Do you believe in the death penalty? …

If you answered “YES” to any of the above questions, then YOU flat out disagree with the tenets and teachings of the Catholic Church.

Throughout her entire history the church has acknowledged the right of States to employ capital punishment. Your other arguments may be valid but this one is incorrect.

I am a Catholic because I believe…

You clearly believe much of what the Catholic church teaches and just as clearly you reject some of her major tenets. You support abortion and homosexual “marriage” which the church teaches are grave sins. Whether people who believe in capital punishment are cafeteria Catholics or not doesn’t change the fact that you are … and being one is inherently irrational.

The church makes certain claims about herself. Rejecting those claims is a rejection of the church. Either she is what she claims to be or she isn’t, and if she isn’t then there is no logical reason to believe anything she teaches. The point is, if you believe the church is wrong on (e.g.) abortion then you have to also accept that she is wrong to believe she has fulfilled "her mission of authentically interpreting God’s law" (Veritatis Splendor) which “has been entrusted exclusively to the living teaching office of the Church, whose authority is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ.” (Dei Verbum)

I also learned about how God gave us all free will and a conscience. He wouldn’t have done that if HE didn’t want us to use them.

The fact that we follow our conscience does not absolve us of responsibility for our choices even if our conscience allows them.1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.

• 1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility.
  *One the other hand, since there is no reason for you to believe what the church teaches, there is no reason for you to believe this warning.

Ender

 

[KSU]

If I were you, I would seek out a priest and have very frank, open, and honest discussions about your thoughts and feelings. And by the way, Satan believes in every word of the Apostles Creed. Peace and Blessings, Deacon Paul

 

[CopticChristian]

I recently read (can’t remember where) that the reason most dissident Catholics stay in the Church is because they realize that if they left then their influence would weaken (i.e. no one would really care what they think). I think this seems reasonable enough with respect to Catholic politicians who support abortion, gay marriage, etc. It also could apply to dissident priests. And even those people in charge of organizations like Catholics for Choice.

But my question is, what about the average layman? The man or woman who attends Mass weekly, yet his opinion on many things is not in accord with the Church. Why do these folks remain in the Church? You can’t really say that they stay for reasons of influence or power. So what is it?

Thanks.

So what is it?

I have read through most of the posts and my first question is this…

What is a Liberal Catholic? I for the life of me see that no place in the Catechism.

Catholics are born and rasied Catholic.
Catholics are born and raised Catholic and attend Catholic School.
Catholics are converts.
Catholics are converts that attend Catholic School.

There is no one way to no how someone came to be Catholic and what they learned. My own history is jaded by exposure to different schools of Catholicism.

I was schooled by the Dominican Sister, raised in a home of ethnic origin, attended a Church run by Irish Priests, attended two different High Schools…one with Brothers of St. Patrick and the other with Brothers of La Salle and extensive study and participation in Eastern Catholicism. Each has their own perspective on Catholicism and I am the product of all of them.

The answer to your question though, is this…

So what is it?

Catechesis, plain and simple. I often see posters coming to this forum and when I see some of the questions or thoughts askew…I simply ask…

Have you read the Catechism cover to cover? A simple question that reveals so much.

 

[KSU]

I wish it were that simple, CopticChristian.

Then Abraham said, ‘If they will not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone should rise from the dead.’” Luke 16:31

 

[twoshoes]

I consider myself a fairly liberal Catholic. I stay in the Church because it is one, holy, catholic and universal. I stay in the Church I would be lost without the Real Presence. I stay in the Church because it is the only place I could possibly be at home.

My grown children think I am too conservative because I do not understand gay people and think life begins at conception.

Still, I would not be scandalized if women could be ordained as priests.

The Church is a Living Institution and by definition, is ever changing. But the Church’s vision and truth stays the same.

So well said. I like to think 'Im an evolving person, always striving for the “Way to Perfection in Jesus” as St Teresa Of Avil put it. I think change just to make change will always end in more troubles. I think the 50,000 generations before us knew something of what they left us. We should at least consider the consquence of our descision. Gosnell is a perfect example of fell good change gone wrong.

 

[CopticChristian]

I wish it were that simple, CopticChristian.

Then Abraham said, ‘If they will not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone should rise from the dead.’” Luke 16:31

and Paul says pretty much the same thing…in Romans…

5For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), 7or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”-- that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Sadly Protestants take this to mean that wagging your lips=salvation and in another thread

The Protestant View of Israel…a misinformed “messianic says this”

Paul is quoting Deuteronomy and intends to say that we can understand God’s word. That faith produces righteousness in us, that we don’t have to rely upon man-made traditions or laws for our understanding.

Paul is quoting Deuterotomy to tell the Jews, you did not listen to Moses, you heard Christ and now you won’t listen to me, telling you what Moses said, as if I were Moses…

you don’t need the Old Covenant to be in the New Covenant and the reality is that those that need Catechesis…are stiff necked, hard hearted and won’t listen to anyone because they refuse to listen to the Church…

15"If your brother sins , go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16"But if he does not listen [to you], take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. 17"If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

and the only hope for anyone that believes that they have something to bring to the Church that the Church does not have is…

Catechesis:thumbsup: