Why do liberal Catholics stay in the Church?

[sedonaman]

Liberalism creates poverty? Really?
oecd.org/dataoecd/47/2/41528678.pdf

This liberal website makes the classical mistake: income is ***not ***distributed; it is created, and it is created by people. The quintessential liberal looks at inequality and concludes that those who have more cheated; and therefore, everyone should have equal outcomes, not just equal opportunity [which is hard enough to achieve]. But people do not want equal outcomes. “When incomes are equalized, they will be equalized at a low level.” – Economist Vilfredo Pareto. One need only look at communist societies to see that. God created people with different skills, abilities, and physical attractiveness, and these all translate into different incomes.

Unions are bad? really?
“Thus, the encyclical rises strongly to the defense of labor unions, which are still vehemently opposed by large numbers of politically conservative Catholics. The pope notes that unions “have always been encouraged and supported by the Church” (n. 64).” ncronline.org/blogs/essays-theology/popes-social-encyclical-part-2

Actually, I agree with this somewhat. The local union actually took my side in a labor dispute with one of my subordinates. There are good unions and bad ones. The bad ones price their employees out of the market.

Decrease access to health care? Really?
Spend some time scrolling through this material:
cmhmd.blogspot.com/search/label/Access%20to%20Treatment

When a highly desirable commodity becomes free, demand shoots through the roof. There is not enough information given about Hawaii’s experience to conclude anything about a complex subject. It’s like taking one data point and extrapolating a unified theory of the whole universe.

 

[hawwahh]

They wont want to leave if they believe that the real presence of Jesus Christ is there in the Eucharist at Mass. I mean that is beside the point, of whatever economic, social, political, cultural or personal views a person might have.
The Catholic Church is the universal Church and it holds together peoples from all types of backgrounds, however it is held together by obedience to the Magesterium.
I think a great deal of damage was done to that authority in the Galileo affair, which had the affect of seeing the Church backtrack and change its position. Of course it had no other choice and the reality is that the whole affair was never properly explained to the public at large, but that at least is the perception.
Under these circumstance its probably not hard to concieve of the church perhaps modifying its position with regard to something such as married clergy at some point in the future. From there its a short step to women priests etc.
So many people, who are convinced of the Truth of the Church but are socially liberal, remain because they believe that, whatever the church says today, tomorrow it will be agreeing with them.

They are wrong, but they can plead ignorance I suppose.

 

[Tsuwano]

I consider liberals, religious or political, to be “ThOpp-ers”: to get truth, Think Opposite from what they say.

Think that way and you never have any ideas of your own worth listening to. Keeping an open mind is not the same thing as having an empty mind, and as we all know “A mind is a terrible thing to waste.”

 

[hawwahh]

I’m a Unitarian, however, my daughter’s father’s family is Catholic (we have split due to his drug abuse causing an unsafe home environment for both my daughter and I). I encourage her to learn about Catholicism so she can choose her own religious path and not associate her father’s behavior with the religion.

So, how do I respond to a 3-yr-old who tells me she wants to be a priest when she grows up. I explained that only men can be priests. Like most children, the immediate question was “Why?”. I myself believe that the Catholic Church is sexist, but out of respect, that is something I will NEVER tell her. But, what SHOULD I tell her? So far, I’ve told her that I’ll find an answer for her.
Help!

Sincere Blessings to all, and infinite respect,
~Hawwahh

 

[St_Francis]

They wont want to leave if they believe that the real presence of Jesus Christ is there in the Eucharist at Mass. I mean that is beside the point, of whatever economic, social, political, cultural or personal views a person might have.
The Catholic Church is the universal Church and it holds together peoples from all types of backgrounds, however it is held together by obedience to the Magesterium.
I think a great deal of damage was done to that authority in the Galileo affair, which had the affect of seeing the Church backtrack and change its position. Of course it had no other choice and the reality is that the whole affair was never properly explained to the public at large, but that at least is the perception.
Under these circumstance its probably not hard to concieve of the church perhaps modifying its position with regard to something such as married clergy at some point in the future. From there its a short step to women priests etc.
So many people, who are convinced of the Truth of the Church but are socially liberal, remain because they believe that, whatever the church says today, tomorrow it will be agreeing with them.

I don’t think the Galileo affair, as you call it, was a big deal until people recently started to use it to discredit the Church.

And when the full facts are known, it wasn’t a question of whether Galileo was right or not, but that he had not proved it and wanted to go around talking as if he had, and it was a local discipline, not the entirety of the Church.

They are wrong, but they can plead ignorance I suppose.

They can plead ignorance all they like, but just the smallest amount of research, or a question to their priest, should elicit the explanation that the issue of married clergy is one of discipline and the issue of women clergy is one of unreality–just as a woman cannot be a father, she cannot be a priest.

No, they certainly can’t plead ignorance in this time of the internet, that’s for sure.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I’m a Unitarian, however, my daughter’s father’s family is Catholic (we have split due to his drug abuse causing an unsafe home environment for both my daughter and I). I encourage her to learn about Catholicism so she can choose her own religious path and not associate her father’s behavior with the religion.

So, how do I respond to a 3-yr-old who tells me she wants to be a priest when she grows up. I explained that only men can be priests. Like most children, the immediate question was “Why?”. I myself believe that the Catholic Church is sexist, but out of respect, that is something I will NEVER tell her. But, what SHOULD I tell her? So far, I’ve told her that I’ll find an answer for her.
Help!

Sincere Blessings to all, and infinite respect,
~Hawwahh

Simply tell her the Truth. The Church has no AUTHORITY to ordain women. It isn’t the 'CHURCH" that is stopping women from priesthood. . .it is the Lord who has said, “I require men for my priests. Trust in Me; I am goodness, truth, and fairness beyond humanity’s knowledge. If this is what I need, this is what is best not only for men but for women too.”

God has rules (just like Mommy and Daddy and Grandma and Grandpa do). Some of the rules seem unfair (why can sister stay up an hour later just because she’s OLDER? How come at Grandma’s we can have a cookie before dinner but we can’t at home?) but the person in charge has the RIGHT to make rules. God is in charge, He made the rules.

 

[St_Francis]

I’m a Unitarian, however, my daughter’s father’s family is Catholic (we have split due to his drug abuse causing an unsafe home environment for both my daughter and I). I encourage her to learn about Catholicism so she can choose her own religious path and not associate her father’s behavior with the religion.

So, how do I respond to a 3-yr-old who tells me she wants to be a priest when she grows up. I explained that only men can be priests. Like most children, the immediate question was “Why?”. I myself believe that the Catholic Church is sexist, but out of respect, that is something I will NEVER tell her. But, what SHOULD I tell her? So far, I’ve told her that I’ll find an answer for her.
Help!

Sincere Blessings to all, and infinite respect,
~Hawwahh

Girls can grow up to be mommies, right? But they can’t grow up to be daddies. In the same way, because priests are oir spiritual fathers, girls can’t grow up to be priests.

Note: this is a different issue from ordaining married men, which is a disciplinary matter. In the Eastern Catholic churches, married priests are not unusual.

I think it is wonderful for you to teach your daughter about her father’s family’s Faith, and it’s great that you are reaching out for accurate answers Welcome to the forum!

 

[CMatt25]

it is the Lord who has said, “I require men for my priests. Trust in Me; I am goodness, truth, and fairness beyond humanity’s knowledge. If this is what I need, this is what is best not only for men but for women too.”

Tantum, is that a direct quote?

 

[Robintrinket]

Unions are bad? really?
“Thus, the encyclical rises strongly to the defense of labor unions, which are still vehemently opposed by large numbers of politically conservative Catholics. The pope notes that unions “have always been encouraged and supported by the Church” (n. 64).” ncronline.org/blogs/essays-theology/popes-social-encyclical-part-2

I just love the way some people, when they can’t argue with what you say, twist your words into something they *can *argue. What I said was that unions can be harmful sometimes instead of beneficial. Just because unions are “encouraged and supported by the Church” does not mean that what every union in every country does is always right. They are human organizations, and can be subject to corruption and abuse like any other human organization. I think it is the bad things about unions in America that politically conservative Catholics don’t like. Besides causing harm to the economy in some states, they give huge amounts of money to political campaigns, then receive favors from these politicians (such as when unions were exempted from the health care bill).

 

[valentino]

As strange and as contradictory as this may sound liberal Catholics believe you can still be Catholic and disagree with the Pope on issues that are considered infallible teachings.When the Pope (the Church) says its mortal sin to participate in a certain behavior it must be accepted as such and there are no mitigating circumstances.EX;the Church condemns birth control (other that NFP if you want to consider it as such)and it must be followed.No Catholic is a Catholic who disobeys such teaching.For liberal Catholics who continue to recieve while breaking this law of the Church is committing a sacriledge and will be severely punished.

 

[TedDC]

Tantum, is that a direct quote?

No, Tantum cleaned up the language to be suitable for a public forum

 

[charlescritt]

This a very good discussion, but I have yet to see any serious pecuniary considerations. My opinion be that as it may, rests on two premises.
First, there is the trap of money and living expenses. Most people aren’t so liberal as they are poor and as they try to make a living they are stretched in pursuit of a life convenient enough to give back to the church. But they can’t, situations won’t let them, so they rationalize about the church in ways they shouldn’t.
Second, is confession. Most people want to go to confession, they have nothing against it. Yet when the time comes, we fuss and rationalize that away as well. One thing is always building on another and very few of us get to the point where we say we’ll do these things.
It’s a matter of faith and there’s just enough under faith or over faith to keep us all liberal or conservative. It’s enough for us to save our own souls and in such a pluralistic world we should just thank God we’re Catholic and not worry too much about the adjectives that describe us. There are exceptions though and if there is someone in our midst, whose sole purpose is to destroy us, we need to band together to protect ourselves.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I have no idea why someone who favors abortion, or who believes in including gays in the sacrament of marriage would want to be in the Catholic Church. <<

:nope: These are DEMOCRAT PARTY issues, not Catholic issues. Social Justice is COMMUNISM. You are confused.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Liberalism creates poverty? Really?
oecd.org/dataoecd/47/2/41528678.pdf

Unions are bad? really?
“Thus, the encyclical rises strongly to the defense of labor unions, which are still vehemently opposed by large numbers of politically conservative Catholics. The pope notes that unions “have always been encouraged and supported by the Church” (n. 64).” ncronline.org/blogs/essays-theology/popes-social-encyclical-part-2

Decrease access to health care? Really?
Spend some time scrolling through this material:
cmhmd.blogspot.com/search/label/Access%20to%20Treatment

TURN OFF FAUX NEWS!!!

Turn off your exclamation points. And put down the tin-foil hat too.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Tantum, is that a direct quote?

If you mean did Christ speak those words directly and are they recorded in Scripture in exactly that order, no. Neither did he specifically state the Creed. But The Holy Spirit revealed to us what is necessary in the Creed (or indeed the several creeds including the Apostles Creed and the Nicene Creed.) We believe that the words of the Nicene Creed are true–in fact, most Christian communities recite that creed at their worship services, even though they are not a ‘direct quote’ from Jesus.

If you mean, did Christ ever tell us to “Trust in me”. . .yes, He did. Not just in Scripture but in every area where the Holy Spirit has led us, including the canon of Scripture, the definitions of things like the Trinity, etc.

Did Christ ever say, through the Spirit, that He is goodness, truth, and fairness, beyond humanity’s understanding? Yes, He did. He said it in Scripture, in several psalms.

Did Christ ever tell us that he desired men for His priests? Yes, He did --He revealed it through the Spirit who revealed it to His Church.

I find it quite astonishing that people have no trouble accepting that the Church 'spoke through the Spirit" when it suits them about things which they WANT to believe or ‘choose’ to believe, but can’t accept the very same Church as speaking through Christ when it comes to things they DON’T want to believe.

**It’s like saying that you’ll believe science and scientists about gravity, but dang, you want to believe that the moon is made of green cheese so even though you’ll ‘accept’ science on gravity, you’ll deny them when they tell you the moon is made of rock. **

 

[valentino]

This a very good discussion, but I have yet to see any serious pecuniary considerations. My opinion be that as it may, rests on two premises.
First, there is the trap of money and living expenses. Most people aren’t so liberal as they are poor and as they try to make a living they are stretched in pursuit of a life convenient enough to give back to the church. But they can’t, situations won’t let them, so they rationalize about the church in ways they shouldn’t.
Second, is confession. Most people want to go to confession, they have nothing against it. Yet when the time comes, we fuss and rationalize that away as well. One thing is always building on another and very few of us get to the point where we say we’ll do these things.
It’s a matter of faith and there’s just enough under faith or over faith to keep us all liberal or conservative. It’s enough for us to save our own souls and in such a pluralistic world we should just thank God we’re Catholic and not worry too much about the adjectives that describe us. There are exceptions though and if there is someone in our midst, whose sole purpose is to destroy us, we need to band together to protect ourselves.

Its sad to think someone would stop going to church over money issue.if you don’t accually enrol in a parish no one could know what you give or not.NOt sure even then if they know what individuals give.Confession is only once a year obligation how could a person abandon the Church over that.They must care very little aboout their Catholic faith.

 

[sedonaman]

Think that way and you never have any ideas of your own worth listening to. Keeping an open mind is not the same thing as having an empty mind, and as we all know “A mind is a terrible thing to waste.”

The liberal concept of “keeping an open mind” is letting one’s brains fall out. What I have stated is nothing more that what liberals claim, that truth is relative [never mind why we should accept their truth].

Few errors have so firmly entrenched themselves for so long a time as has the Error of Liberalism. Few sins have been so misunderstood as has been the Sin of Liberalism. In reprinting this timely book, first printed in English in 1899, we hope to enlighten Catholics as to the causes and effect of and remedies for Liberalism. Liberalsim Is a Sin.

Why is liberalism is a sin? Because its roots are in Original Sin. Contrary to popular belief, Original Sin was not the literal eating of a fruit in the Garden of Eden. It is the idea that man can play God. God clearly established in Genesis that man was not to “eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." IOW, He makes the rules, not man.

As I have indicated, modern liberals have even redefined truth. On his TV program, “Life Is Worth Living,” Bishop Fulton Sheen once posed the question, “Where are your sox?” To answer that question, he explained that traditional Western thought turns to reality to determine the truth of where your sox are and concludes that they are in your dresser drawer. Liberals/Leftists would answer, “Wherever the party says they are!” So it is with any question; political correctness determines truth. We have all experienced the phenomenon of “political correctness.” But few have defined it, so I will put forth my definition: “A crusade to ignorance characterized by a rejection of truth that conflicts with liberal ideology.” The primary function of liberal-Leftist altruistic, selective arguments over truth is to conceal that fact.

On the issues of the day, it is the intelligentsia that sets the tone and content of the debate – and it’s the intelligentsia where the most irrational and bigoted views on these issues are to be found. That’s because the core of this phenomenon [liberalism] is the replacement of truth by ideology. Rather than following the evidence to arrive at a conclusion, ideology wrenches facts to fit a prior governing idea. Ideology is thus intrinsically inimical to both truth and reason.

It is the intelligentsia which is attracted to ideology – or the dogma of a governing idea. Non-intellectual people have little time for the rarefied world of theorizing, being generally too preoccupied with the daily grind of making a living. It is the universities where the ideologies of moral and cultural relativism and post modernism took an axe to the concepts of morality and objective truth; and so it is, the intellectual classes – the supposed custodians of reason – who have turned into the destroyers of reason.

Moreover, the most highly educated are often the most high-minded. They therefore tend to be drawn towards theories promising utopia. But utopia never arrives. So frustrated utopians invariably create scapegoats upon whom to take out their anger. Hence the various secular inquisitions.

So the failure of the environmental vision of spiritual one-ness between man and nature has seen mankind blamed for despoiling the planet and imperiling the survival of life on earth. The failure to arrive at a perfect state of reason in which all injustice and suffering are ended has been blamed on religious believers. The failure of the apparatus of international law and human rights to prevent war and tyranny has been blamed on America. And the failure of the existence of Israel to bring about the end of ‘the Jewish problem’ has been blamed on those same Jews for its continuation.

– Phillips, The World Turned Upside Down.

I might add that the goal of education has been morphed from the pursuit of truth into political advocacy.

And that is why liberals are ThOpp-ers. Having my own ideas is not the measure. The measure is the results of liberal thought, and who can claim that society is better off today since the expansion of liberal ideas 50 years ago?

 

[Me1234]

Liberals stay so the church has both ‘wheat and weeds’ in it. Since we’re the catholic church we get that sort of problem. cockle among the wheat. We’re God’s church so the enemy has sowed some that are bad in our field with the good. The catholic church is like that parable. It has both the saints and the unsaintly in it till harvest time.

 

[PRmerger]

So, how do I respond to a 3-yr-old who tells me she wants to be a priest when she grows up. I explained that only men can be priests. Like most children, the immediate question was “Why?”. I myself believe that the Catholic Church is sexist, but out of respect, that is something I will NEVER tell her. But, what SHOULD I tell her? So far, I’ve told her that I’ll find an answer for her.
Help!

Sincere Blessings to all, and infinite respect,
~Hawwahh

I suppose you could tell her the same thing you’d tell her if she said she wants to grow up to be a daddy: “Sweetheart, girls can’t be daddys.”

 

[Robintrinket]

Social Justice is COMMUNISM.

At least that seems to be the liberals’ definition.