Why do liberal Catholics stay in the Church?

[sedonaman]

I know, Friend. It was my failed attempt at being coy.

Thanks for your support.

 

[Aboveallbereal]

I think everyone should stand back, take a breath and take cognisance of the simple and unavoidable reality that there are catholics and there are …catholics.

The vast majority of nominal catholics are not in any meaningful sense obedient to the magisterium…EG 12% of nominally catholic Austrians attend church. A tiny fraction of the 88% non attending de facto agnostics will regard themselves as being in sin since the concept is irrelevant to them. Figures are similar elsewhere. It is easy for such “catholics” to remain nominally inside the Church while accepting abortion/Divorce etc etc for the simple reason that the teaching of the Chruch is barely relevant to them one way or the other and Church is simply a venue for Rites of passage and is deemed harmless as long as it is ignored when its teaching is not ad idem with the tenets of liberal humanism which as we know is the true conscience of the vast majority of so called catholics.

This debate must take into accout the above reality.

 

[St_Francis]

I think everyone should stand back, take a breath and take cognisance of the simple and unavoidable reality that there are catholics and there are …catholics.

The vast majority of nominal catholics are not in any meaningful sense obedient to the magisterium…EG 12% of nominally catholic Austrians attend church. A tiny fraction of the 88% non attending de facto agnostics will regard themselves as being in sin since the concept is irrelevant to them. Figures are similar elsewhere. It is easy for such “catholics” to remain nominally inside the Church while accepting abortion/Divorce etc etc for the simple reason that the teaching of the Chruch is barely relevant to them one way or the other and Church is simply a venue for Rites of passage and is deemed harmless as long as it is ignored when its teaching is not ad idem with the tenets of liberal humanism which as we know is the true conscience of the vast majority of so called catholics.

This debate must take into accout the above reality.

I don’t think the non-practicing Catholic is who is under discussion here, more like the priest we once had visit our church who said, from the pulpit!, that “the Church should re-think the ordination of women.”

 

[tbcrawford]

Holiness does not consist in doing the right things or following the rules and regulations set by the Church, or else we will be like the Pharisees who were concerned only with the laws. No, holiness consist in loving God first, and loving Him in our neighbors. When we are governed by love, then rules and regulations set by the church will serve their purpose.Therefore, the only right thing in spiritual life is striving to love as God love–Fr.CS,OP

 

[lynnvinc]

I consider Western so-called conservatives to be too liberal (at a personal level) for me. That’s why I was thrilled to marry a Catholic from India 42 years ago, before modernism started taking over Indian culture.

My husband and I are extremely conservative, and get upset even watching “G” programs that have kissing, etc. – which my husband considers fornication, if it is between unmarried people & unnecessary porn. So we hardly watch any TV or movies, because nearly all of them are bad, worse, or worst. Divorce is totally immoral and bad. Can’t people honor commitments to God – their vow of Holy Matrimony – even if they have extreme difficulties with their spouse, who has become a hair-shirt to them? Can’t people do penance, sacrificial love, agape, and strive to get along with another person, see the good in that person (as God sees it, as Our Lady sees it, along with the tremendous suffering and sorrow so many have), love that person sacrificially? No, bec it’s all about “my happiness” and damned the other.

Since I was a small kid I never liked the Western emphasis on rugged individualism, me-me-me, and pursuit of wealth beyond modest living. These too are bad and against Christianity. I’m thinking I’m the only one who recognized this – the total disconnect between Church teaching and the world out there. Didn’t people pay attention in Sunday school or CCD?

My heart rejoices not in “rights,” but in duties, responsibilities, love, generosity, selflessness, sacrifice, and nothing at all the West (whether conservative or liberal) stands for – gobbling up everything for self-self-self and harming one’s neighbor, one’s baby, others’ babies. That’s a project shared by both conservatives and liberals in our American society.

I just wonder why American Catholics stay in the Church since American culture is Western culture carried to the extreme, gone awry, and in no way fits with what Jesus taught.

Both so-called conservatives AND liberals in this day and age are really immoral and bad, and seeming to be getting worse.

The liberals stand for killing unborn babies, bec of “women’s rights” – what about women’s duties? And the conservatives stand for annihilating life on planet earth thru exceeding planetary boundaries on serious problems such as climate change, chemical pollution, strat ozone depletion, the nitrogen & phosphorous cycles, ocean acidification, etc, bec of “my rights” – what about “my duties”? And the liberals now appear to be as bad as the conservatives in this area too (in addition to their being “pro-choice”), such as Obama, who has recently shown himself to be a turn-coat on environmental issues. And I had thought that liberals were just a tab less pro-death than conservatives, weighing all life issues & all forms by which we kill people, mainly the unborn & future generations. What a rude awakening. They are both very evil, very pro-death. Voting is going to be like being poked by 2 sharp, piercing horns of a dilemma. Either way, we lose, goodness loses.

I pray for both the conservatives and liberals. Why do they both want us to die, like those aliens in INDEPENDENCE DAY?

 

[BigFellaMick]

I pray for both the conservatives and liberals. Why do they both want us to die, like those aliens in INDEPENDENCE DAY?

I love independence day! That aside, I am a 23 year old american (for now). I am totally in agreement. Though I don’t see it so much as republicans/democrats or conservatives/liberals. Its just the american people by and large have become a selfish, greedy, ignorant and arrogant people. By and large means the majority, not every single person (before I catch flames from defensive americans). The Catholic Church in america is too liberal in my eyes and needs to be (as all Catholic Churches should) spitting images of Rome. There should not be so much difference between western catholic churches and european catholic churches. There should only be Catholic Churches. Period. But Catholics here are failing Christ miserably in allowing the destruction of His teachings and morals in their country. The UCCB is doing everything it can to combat things but the real power for change will only come when Catholics everywhere unite as one and say “f*** you government THIS is how things are going to be run”. america strives for “freedom” yet all that means in Gods eyes is “rebellion”. You know who else rebelled against him? Satan. Look how well that worked for him. Are americans incapable of making the distinction? Do they not see how evil and corrupt their country has become? This country is slated for destruction if the people don’t change their habits. (I fully understand the rest of the world is in bad shape as well but since I live in america it is all I am suited to speak for). With our Lady’s prophecy at Fatima clearly disregarded, the chastisement is surely going to rock the world. Nations will be destroyed and I pray for the good americans stuck in this craphole because anyone who has faith can understand that this country if not being number 1 on the list, certainly makes top five. lol

 

[St_Francis]

We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

i think it is very easy for us to take what we are naturally not attracted to, set it up as a terrible sin, and knock those who suffer from that sin. But those people are in the meantime judging us for our sins which we fail to notice.

 

[kozlosap]

Holiness does not consist in doing the right things or following the rules and regulations set by the Church, or else we will be like the Pharisees who were concerned only with the laws. No, holiness consist in loving God first, and loving Him in our neighbors. When we are governed by love, then rules and regulations set by the church will serve their purpose.Therefore, the only right thing in spiritual life is striving to love as God love–Fr.CS,OP

:thumbsup:Amen!

 

[Crumpy]

I’m jumping in at the long tail of the thread.

I agree, I don’t know why liberal Catholics stay in the Church. They wanted to abandon tradition and change everything, all the time.

I don’t get it.

If you do that, then you are destroying the Church. We hear that the Church HAS been infiltrated with people who want to destroy it. That may seem fantastic, but history says it is true.

It’s a whole separate thread, but the John Corapi situation makes me shudder. How many people were duped by him!

“We came to see Jesus.” the gospels say. when I start seeing a “pastor” or an “administrator” I start to get real nervous.

 

[St_Francis]

“We came to see Jesus.” the gospels say. when I start seeing a “pastor” or an “administrator” I start to get real nervous.

Just a tiny quibble: pastor is Latin for shepherd, so when you see a pastor at a church, that’s good

 

[lynnvinc]

We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

i think it is very easy for us to take what we are naturally not attracted to, set it up as a terrible sin, and knock those who suffer from that sin. But those people are in the meantime judging us for our sins which we fail to notice.

I completely agree. I was a Presbyterian in the youth choir, when the Elders (who run the church) disbanded us. Our wonderful, humble choir master told us hopping mad kids that when you point a finger at others, you have 3 fingers pointing back at yourself (he made a pointed finger to demonstrate). That didn’t sink in then, but it did later.

I’m thinking the reason conservatives make abortion to be the main issue is because they are personally not getting medical abortions (even tho they may be contributing to miscarriages through the lifestyles and pollution emissions), and it is easy to point the finger at those sinners who are, and it gives people a smug self-satisfied feeling to point those fingers. Now I know that many if not most in the anti-abortion movement, including myself, are truly concerned about the unborn babies, but still there is a good feeling that at least we ourselves are not engaged in such a sin.

OTOH, something like global warming is all our sins (as JPII said it is everyone’s responsibility to mitigate). We’re all doing this sin, and it feels really terrible to face up to it, and so much better just to deny it (even if mitigating will save us money and be good for the economy). So the conservatives tend to deny it, bec it doesn’t fit with their goody-2-shoes image, and the liberals tend to blame it on the population “problem” overseas (or on the conservatives who are dragging their heels on it) bec it doesn’t fit their goody-2-shoes image. No one wants to take responsbility, neither the conservatives nor the liberals. We’d rather just risk annihilating life on earth than admit to any personal wrong-doing and dig in and do something to mitigate it.

So this is the apocalypse brought on by human sin. Very very sad. I just pray we don’t all end up in a much hotter place than a globally warmed world for all eternity.

I think the Church would be better off without pharisee conservatives and without willfully sinful liberals, but those striving to overcome their sins, to be authentically Catholic, and to truly follow Jesus.

However, I find the thread Q to be obnoxious, because I think most conservative and liberal Catholics in the church ARE striving to do just that, and neither should be pushed out.

 

[Ahimsa]

Galileo was a liberal Catholic. I’m glad he stayed.

 

[PRmerger]

Galileo was a liberal Catholic. I’m glad he stayed.

Liberal Catholics dissent against the Magisterium on issues of salvation.

What did Galileo proclaim that dissented against the Pope on the issue of faith/morals?

 

[Ahimsa]

Liberal Catholics dissent against the Magisterium on issues of salvation.

What did Galileo proclaim that dissented against the Pope on the issue of faith/morals?

Actually, liberal Catholics include those who question commonly believed ideas, whether those ideas are salvation-related or not.

 

[PRmerger]

Actually, liberal Catholics include those who question commonly believed ideas, whether those ideas are salvation-related or not.

No, Ahimsa. Catholics who are* not* liberals “question commonly believed ideas” too.

See Fides et Ratio, which is all about questioning commonly believed ideas–that’s called using your intellect, and loving God with our entire mind (see Matt 22).

 

[Ahimsa]

Catholics who are* not* liberals “question commonly believed ideas” too.

Sure, everyone questions “commonly believed ideas”, because many ideas are commonly believed by someone or some group.

The difference is that liberal Catholics are more willing to question ideas (such as geocentrism) that are not necessarily “dogma”, but that nonetheless are believed to play a supporting role in confirming dogma, or to come from a common-sense reading of scripture.

 

[PRmerger]

Sure, everyone questions “commonly believed ideas”, because many ideas are commonly believed by someone or some group.

The difference is that liberal Catholics are more willing to question ideas (such as geocentrism) that are not necessarily “dogma”, but that nonetheless are believed to play a supporting role in confirming dogma, or to come from a common-sense reading of scripture.

LOL! Geocentrism, as you correctly point out, was not dogma, and thus all non-liberal Catholics as well as liberal Catholics are free to question that.

Doing so has nothing to do with being a liberal.

 

[Ahimsa]

LOL! Geocentrism, as you correctly point out, was not dogma, and thus all non-liberal Catholics as well as liberal Catholics are free to question that.

Doing so has nothing to do with being a liberal.

Well, as you well know, there are many “non-dogmatic” statements that, nonetheless, are part of Church teaching. These include statements that are taught with the charism of infallibility (definitive doctrines), or proposed authoritatively (authoritative doctrines), or prudential admonitions and church discipline. A conservative Catholic would tend to not question even the non-dogmatic statements, whereas a liberal Catholic would. And, of course, both liberal and conservative Catholics are fully Catholic.

 

[St_Francis]

Well, as you well know, there are many “non-dogmatic” statements that, nonetheless, are part of Church teaching. These include statements that are taught with the charism of infallibility (definitive doctrines), or proposed authoritatively (authoritative doctrines), or prudential admonitions and church discipline. A conservative Catholic would tend to not question even the non-dogmatic statements, whereas a liberal Catholic would. And, of course, both liberal and conservative Catholics are fully Catholic.

Galileo got in trouble with the Church because he wanted to proclaim as truth something he had no proof for. Copernicus, you notice, did not get into trouble with the Church.

We spent some time in the earlier part of this thread defining liberal Catholocs as those who want to somehow change Church teaching in certain areas, most notably, things like women priests and homosexual marriage.

Now, it is one thing to question Church teaching, to ask what the teaching means, what the boundaries are, etc. It is another to persist after the Church has ruled on something or after clarification such as a reminder that homosexual activity is in and of itself a sin and
mortally sinful and therefore not suitable for marriage.

These “liberal Catholics” are not merely questioning but going against what God Himself has taught. They do not believe what the Church teaches, they do not accept the God-given authority of the Church.

It is one thing to sin and to realize one is going against the teachings of the Church, it is another to defy God and try to tell Him He was wrong.

 

[Ahimsa]

Galileo got in trouble with the Church because he wanted to proclaim as truth something he had no proof for. Copernicus, you notice, did not get into trouble with the Church.

If Galileo had wanted to proclaim that trees are made of rock, and if he lacked proof for that claim, I doubt the Church would have bothered him, because the constitution of trees has little bearing on Catholic dogma. Instead, Galileo challenged a teaching that, though not necessarily dogma, was pretty authoritative doctrine (the Church Fathers and Scripture supported that doctrine, for instance) because the teaching that the Earth was immovable seemed to have a direct relation to the dogma that humanity was the climax of creation. Thus, Galileo got in trouble for questioning a non-dogmatic teaching.

We spent some time in the earlier part of this thread defining liberal Catholocs as those who want to somehow change Church teaching in certain areas, most notably, things like women priests and homosexual marriage.

There are various types of “liberal” Catholics. Some want to change disciplines (such as the discipline of unmarried priests); some want to change more substantive practices (such as the practice of male-only priesthood ordination). Others, like Galileo, want to show that certain non-dogmatic teachings are not correct, and have little interest in practices regarding the priesthood or marriage.