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Ahimsa
Guest
Can you provide me with a list of these definitive statements?
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Wardog
Guest
I think the closest to a list you will find are the Nicene Creed and CCC. I find it is good to also check the Vatican website for the actual encyclicals and statements rather than read any summary or interpertation here or on other sites. They can provide some remarkable clarity, and if I do have a dissenting opinion, at least I know I am dissenting from the real thing and not some made up opinion.
There is no list of infallible statements; I recently read a thread on this forum from 2005 about this, and the people there were pretty heated that if you had to ask which statements were infallible you were not a a true Catholic.
Vatican I defined the rules for an infallible statement, which included the Pope stating he was talking Ex Cathedra. There have not been many of these, but there are many doctrines without Ex Cathedra statements that are considered infallible. And it is not just the Pope who can declare doctrine infallible; the Ordinary and the Extraordinary/Universal Magisterium (such as Vatican I, Council of Trent, etc) can do so as well.
The trouble I find on this forum is that when I try to discuss doctrine, it is like nailing jello to the wall. Because sometimes the answer is, “well that is not infallible doctrine” or " that is “discipline, not dogma” or that is infallible and you must agree and obey to remain in good standing with the Church. Yet when I ask how they knew if something is infallible or not, I either get no answer or fuzzy answers, mainly implying that I am going to Hell for even asking.
And God help you if you ever question the logic, reasonableness or rationality of some doctrines. Sometimes the answers come across pretty cold hearted. I think that is why many parish priests have a hard time explaining doctrines; they have to look the person in the face and say things like, sorry, but you are an eunuch, and therefore cannot have the sacrament of marriage. Or, " yes, you have 10 kids, but you still are not considered open to life unless each and every marital act is open to life; you can use NFP to avoid pregnancy, but avoiding pregnancy any other way is inherently immoral."
It is a lot easier for someone in the Vatican who talks with no one other than religious who do not face these problems. Locked away in an ivory tower, they can make quite logical and rational arguments for things that deeply effect personal lives, without ever having to face those people whose lives are affected.
Why do LIberal Catholics stay in the Church? Because the Church has the lock on the truth. It is only when they divert from the Truth and try to make it work in a factual manner that anyone has difficulty.
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Ahimsa
Guest
So that would imply that if I disagree with any statement in the CCC, then I would be a heretic.
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Wardog
Guest
I am not qualified to answer that. There are plenty of others in this forum who are more than ready to tell you yes, you are.
I can only tell you that I struggle with several things in the CCC; mainly whenever the teachings move away from sex education (every couple should be open to life) to sex training (each and every marital act must end in intercourse)
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RobbyS
Guest
Hard cases make bad law. There is no way to make a rule that covers all possible cases. Good rules admit exceptions. A wise person does not ask a question if he knows he will not get the answer he wants. A wise judge errs on the side of mercy.
Some things are best left unsaid.
Whatever happened to recognizing that prudence is a virtue? The guy with ten kids goes to the priest and ask him: can I afford to have more kinds? Any sane priests would say, “You are asking ME?” All I can tell you is that the Church says that birth control is wrong. It is up to you to decide how best to apply that rule.
Foir it is like asking someone: Should I climb the Matterhorn? Some people can --like that couple in Arkansas–handle sixteen kids. Some people think they are crazy, others marvel at their faith, and the apparent grace that enables them to cope–and thrive. I marvel at the story of Bartoleme de Las Casas who as an old man was trampling around the jungles of northern South Armerica. Heck, I marvel at the ability of some batters to hit a fastball comes at them at 100 MPH. Something do not come easy, and most of us do want the easy way out. People bear suffering with a Christlike calm, that astounds. Most of us suffer less than we ought to. Turn to God. Listen up. If you are cast down, he will lift you up. If you are at a pay grade you don’t deserve, you will be demoted. He’si n charge.
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PRmerger
Guest
No, you cannot be a heretic, Ahimsa. Only a Catholic who obstinately refuses to believe in a Truth of the Church can be a heretic.
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Ahimsa
Guest
What if a Catholic re-interprets a Truth, rather than obstinately refusing to believe a Truth?
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Elizabeth502
Guest
Strictly speaking, interpretation is left (ultimately) to the magisterium. That is not to say that dialogue with Church authorities is not helpful, including dialoguing about a different interpretation. For example, as has been mentioned many times on CAF, the Catechism is hardly a comprehensive explanation of Catholic teachings; it is more like a skeletal version, reduced to essentials. Many times a lay Catholic, particularly one whose catechesis has also been skeletal (which is the norm now, unfortunately), finds a specific teaching confusing or troubling, because it is not in expanded form. Having a discussion about that, with someone in authority who has had training in several branches of theology, can explain the (wider) boundaries of that concept, or in some other way help to resolve the conflict which the questioning person believes he or she must have.
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PRmerger
Guest
Perhaps it would be easier if you gave an example of a Catholic re-interpreting a Truth.
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Barbkw
Guest
I personally think it’s because diocesan priests don’t speak to these contentious issues in their homilies.
I’m always interested in comparing and contrasting EWTN homilies with those of my local parish.
EWTN priests are national in scope and talk very directly about orthodox Catholic theology and addressing sinful acts.
I’ve never heard our local priests speak about contraception, abortion, homosexual acts, chastity, etc.
See no Evil, speak no Evil, hear no Evil.
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Elizabeth502
Guest
What I actually find interesting about the EWTN Masses is that the priests often do three things: they do in fact break open the Readings of the Day (which Vatican 2 reinforced quite specifically was the purpose of the homily) – and often also discuss at some length that feast day which is usually a Saint’s, as you know. In the latter respect they often bring out wonderful sayings, facts, anecdotes about these holy people. Fr. Joseph Wolfe and Fr. Wade Menezes, as 2 examples, do quite a bit of research on the saints being celebrated.
But while doing both of the above, the EWTN priests most often also weave in moral doctrine, reminding us how that moral doctrine relates to the readings and/or feast day. That’s why I wish all Catholics would view the EWTN daily Masses (because so many lay adult Catholics are no longer current on Catholic doctrine, and it’s obvious on and off this website). These Masses repeat several times throughout the day, and even if the several repeats don’t accord with an individual’s work schedule, the station has now made the homilies available on youtube. They are better catechesis than most currently adult Catholics have probably received.
I happen to watch the Masses whenever possible for the spirituality in the homilies; I get a lot out of them, and need them.
We’ve discussed the topic of homilies on another thread (heatedly). It’s my opinion that most pastors are so concerned about more exodus from Mass attendance that they never do the 3rd step. If this is their concern, I think it’s a mistake, because most of the regular attendees are not going to flee when an uncomfortable doctrine is mentioned, unless that is all that is ever talked about. If there is a context for the doctrine being discussed, they will listen, and may or may not still feel resistant, but they will respect the pastor nevertheless. (Most reversions are not a dramatic “moment,” but a series of awakenings that happen progressively.)
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Ahimsa
Guest
Well, before I do that, would you agree that every statement in the Catechism is a Truth?
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PRmerger
Guest
Yes, I would.
And you do understand that there is a hierarchy of truths recognized by the Catholic Church, yes?
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Ahimsa
Guest
OK, now this is where it gets tricky.
The CCC doesn’t label each statement according to its position in the hierarchy of Truth. So how is a person to know which statements in the CCC are more “Truth” than other statements?
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Barbkw
Guest
I agree with what you wrote.
I also DVR the EWTN daily Mass so that I hear Sacred Scripture and the priest’s homily.
It’s also available on youTube at: youtube.com/user/EWTN but normally it takes one day for them to get the homily to youTube.
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Usige
Guest
That is actually the point of excommunication; to formally tell people that their actions have placed them outside the Church. It was always done to give them an opportunity to repent and bring their faith back in line. Once that is done then the excommunication would be lifted.
That being said excommunication is not the answer. There are few things that the laity would do that rises to the level of excommunication (the procuring of an abortion and rejecting dogma * being the two most likely)*
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PRmerger
Guest
Why don’t you first give an example of what you think might be a Catholic proposing heresy.
Then we can go on, okay?
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Ahimsa
Guest
Can you give me a list of the statements that have the highest level in the hierarchy of Truths?
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PRmerger
Guest
No.Can you give me a list of the statements that have the highest level in the hierarchy of Truths?
First give an example of what you were originally asking.
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Ahimsa
Guest
That’s OK. I was just curious if such a list of highest level Truths existed.
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