Why do liberal Catholics stay in the Church?

  • Thread starter Thread starter tom_c_1
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Can you give me a list of the statements that have the highest level in the hierarchy of Truths?🙂
The highest level would be Ex Cathedra statements; since this was defined in the late 1800s, there have been two: the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of Mary into Heaven, both by Pope Pius.
Other high level Truths would be the declared divinely revealed truths at various councils, such as God the Son is of the same substance as God the Father.
Other truths could be declared Truth without divine revelation, such as the illicitness of prostitution and abortion.
There is no definitive list. I found this link to a paper written by Cardinal Ratzinger which does provide a list that he was careful to say was not meant to be all inclusive.

adoremus.org/RatCom1098.html
 
That’s OK. I was just curious if such a list of highest level Truths existed.
Ok.

Just wondering why you’re having such difficulty giving an example of a Catholic re-interpreting “a Truth, rather than obstinately refusing to believe a Truth”?
 
Ok.

Just wondering why you’re having such difficulty giving an example of a Catholic re-interpreting “a Truth, rather than obstinately refusing to believe a Truth”?
OK, I will give it a shot. I think it more important to believe that Jesus is present in the Bread and Wine at the Mass, than it is to believe that I must insert my penis into my wife’s vagina at the end of every marital act.
Both have been listed as Truths on this forum.
 
Ok.

Just wondering why you’re having such difficulty giving an example of a Catholic re-interpreting “a Truth, rather than obstinately refusing to believe a Truth”?
I would first need a list of these Truths, before I could give an example of a reinterpretation of a Truth.
 
OK, I will give it a shot. I think it more important to believe that Jesus is present in the Bread and Wine at the Mass, than it is to believe that I must insert my penis into my wife’s vagina at the end of every marital act.
Both have been listed as Truths on this forum.
Sorry–but not sure if you’re addressing Ahimsa’s question or in what context this addresses heresy.
 
The highest level would be Ex Cathedra statements; since this was defined in the late 1800s, there have been two: the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of Mary into Heaven, both by Pope Pius.
Other high level Truths would be the declared divinely revealed truths at various councils, such as God the Son is of the same substance as God the Father.
Other truths could be declared Truth without divine revelation, such as the illicitness of prostitution and abortion.
There is no definitive list. I found this link to a paper written by Cardinal Ratzinger which does provide a list that he was careful to say was not meant to be all inclusive.

adoremus.org/RatCom1098.html
This is very interesting:
5. The first paragraph states: “With firm faith, I also believe everything contained in the word of God, whether written or handed down in tradition, which the Church, either by solemn judgment or by the ordinary and universal Magisterium, sets forth to be believed as divinely revealed”. The object taught in this paragraph is constituted by all those doctrines of divine and catholic faith which the Church proposes as divinely and formally revealed and, as such, as irreformable.

These doctrines are contained in the word of God, written or handed down, and defined with a solemn judgment as divinely revealed truths either by the Roman pontiff when he speaks “ex cathedra” or by the college of bishops gathered in council, or infallibly proposed for belief by the ordinary and universal Magisterium.
**
These doctrines require the assent of theological faith by all members of the faithful. Thus, whoever obstinately places them in doubt or denies them falls under the censure of heresy, as indicated by the respective canons of the codes of canon law.
The Pope has spoken ex cathedra only twice, so the list of Truth statements from the Pope is pretty short.

But the tricky part is when the ‘ordinary and universal’ Magisterium (OUM) is invoked. How does one find out what the OUM teaches? I guess you could go to the catechism, but not all statements in the catechism are of the highest level of Truth.
 
I can dig it. I can see this statement being of the highest level of Truth.

Now, how do you interpret this statement?
Please give an example of what you think would be a Catholic re-interpreting “Jesus is God” rather than obstinately refusing to believe that Jesus is, well, God.
 
Ahimsa, one can generally say that dogma has a dominant place, and also that any doctrine that derives from an integrated foundation, explicitly stated as integrated in the CCC, is of primary importance in terms of what is called “binding belief.”

(For a discussion of doctrine vs. dogma vs. discipline, visit:)
catholic.com/quickquestions/what-is-the-difference-between-doctrine-and-dogma

also
catholic.com/tracts/can-dogma-develop

And you should avail yourself of searches on the non-forum section of Catholic Answers for more on this.

A believer cannot deconstruct the Trinity, for example: declare that he believes in the Father and the Son, but not the Holy Spirit (“but after all, I’m a good Catholic.” :confused:) He cannot say that he believes in all but one of the Sacraments. The Sacraments, all of them, are foundational to the life of a believing Catholic. He cannot develop, privately (or align with dissenting theologians), a theology that states that Christ becomes present in the Eucharist by virtue of the community gathered and not independently through the power of the priest confecting the Eucharist. (“Because Father so-and-so or Ph.D. so-and-so describes the concept that way, and that makes sense to me, personally.”) The Eucharist may be best experienced in community, but it is no less real and effectual if no community is present. Priests offer Mass privately (alone) all the time, and transubstantiation takes place. Transubstantiation is an example of a core doctrine which must be believed.

One can look at the Creeds (the Nicene Creed, the Apostle’s Creed – slightly different content, but similar core concepts). These are not exhaustive in terms of dogma (and they do not go into sacramental theology), but they would be an example of some fundamental priorities as to beliefs.

For example, these teachings declare the Church to be “one, holy, Catholic, and apostolic.” A Catholic may not say, “I no longer believe in the Church as holy, because of all the evident pedophilia.” The concept of holiness refers to the inviolate guidance of the Holy Spirit, not the personal sinfulness of Church members on all levels. That Catholic may not further say (in logical sequence) that “because I do not believe the Church is [always] holy [in the personal holiness of all of its leaders], I therefore have legitimate permission to disbelieve doctrine X, Y, and/or Z – or even to throw it all out and construct or rearrange the Catechism according to my personal priorities.”

The faithful Catholic (or those of us trying our sometimes-feeble best to be 😊) cannot replace faith with subjective reasoning. (Indiividual reason is not an absolute, because our reason is colored by our experience, our circumstances, and our level of education. Our reason is subject to error.) Making sense to “me, personally” is not the standard for assent of the intellect, let alone the will.

One also has to look at the language in the various sections and particular paragraphs of the CCC. When the Church herself is non-commital, the topic will be presented that way – such as the journey of any particular soul after death. The Church affirms definitively The Four Last Things in the discussion of eschatology, and also discusses mortal sin and its morbid consequences on earth and its indicated consequences at death, but never says in the CCC that the Church would know the destination of a person who dies in mortal sin, because she does not know that. To paraphrase, she says, not a good idea to die in a state of mortal sin which has not been sacramentally absolved. She also says many times in the CCC (and elsewhere) that the mercy of God is infinite and unfathomable, and no human has insight into God’s mercy at the end of a life.

An example of an integrated doctrine which cannot be deconstructed is the doctrine on marriage. The Church’s doctrine on marriage is radical. It cannot be other than one man + one woman, both canonically eligible to be joined in marriage. No Catholic could support same-sex “marriage” and declare such support to be within the field of faithful Catholicity. Those are radically opposed concepts. And the doctrine of marriage is part of an integrated theology of the human person, his or her native gender, the nature of family and procreation, etc. (Not deconstructible.)

But in any case, I agree with PRMerger, in that examples from you would help.
 
Ahimsa, one can generally say that dogma has a dominant place, and also that any doctrine that derives from an integrated foundation, explicitly stated as integrated in the CCC, is of primary importance in terms of what is called “binding belief.”

(For a discussion of doctrine vs. dogma vs. discipline, visit:)
catholic.com/quickquestions/what-is-the-difference-between-doctrine-and-dogma

also
catholic.com/tracts/can-dogma-develop

And you should avail yourself of searches on the non-forum section of Catholic Answers for more on this.

A believer cannot deconstruct the Trinity, for example: declare that he believes in the Father and the Son, but not the Holy Spirit (“but after all, I’m a good Catholic.” :confused:) He cannot say that he believes in all but one of the Sacraments. The Sacraments, all of them, are foundational to the life of a believing Catholic. He cannot develop, privately (or align with dissenting theologians), a theology that states that Christ becomes present in the Eucharist by virtue of the community gathered and not independently through the power of the priest confecting the Eucharist. (“Because Father so-and-so or Ph.D. so-and-so describes the concept that way, and that makes sense to me, personally.”) The Eucharist may be best experienced in community, but it is no less real and effectual if no community is present. Priests offer Mass privately (alone) all the time, and transubstantiation takes place. Transubstantiation is an example of a core doctrine which must be believed.

One can look at the Creeds (the Nicene Creed, the Apostle’s Creed – slightly different content, but similar core concepts). These are not exhaustive in terms of dogma (and they do not go into sacramental theology), but they would be an example of some fundamental priorities as to beliefs.

For example, these teachings declare the Church to be “one, holy, Catholic, and apostolic.” A Catholic may not say, “I no longer believe in the Church as holy, because of all the evident pedophilia.” The concept of holiness refers to the inviolate guidance of the Holy Spirit, not the personal sinfulness of Church members on all levels. That Catholic may not further say (in logical sequence) that “because I do not believe the Church is [always] holy [in the personal holiness of all of its leaders], I therefore have legitimate permission to disbelieve doctrine X, Y, and/or Z – or even to throw it all out and construct or rearrange the Catechism according to my personal priorities.”

The faithful Catholic (or those of us trying our sometimes-feeble best to be 😊) cannot replace faith with subjective reasoning. (Indiividual reason is not an absolute, because our reason is colored by our experience, our circumstances, and our level of education. Our reason is subject to error.) Making sense to “me, personally” is not the standard for assent of the intellect, let alone the will.

One also has to look at the language in the various sections and particular paragraphs of the CCC. When the Church herself is non-commital, the topic will be presented that way – such as the journey of any particular soul after death. The Church affirms definitively The Four Last Things in the discussion of eschatology, and also discusses mortal sin and its morbid consequences on earth and its indicated consequences at death, but never says in the CCC that the Church would know the destination of a person who dies in mortal sin, because she does not know that. To paraphrase, she says, not a good idea to die in a state of mortal sin which has not been sacramentally absolved. She also says many times in the CCC (and elsewhere) that the mercy of God is infinite and unfathomable, and no human has insight into God’s mercy at the end of a life.

An example of an integrated doctrine which cannot be deconstructed is the doctrine on marriage. The Church’s doctrine on marriage is radical. It cannot be other than one man + one woman, both canonically eligible to be joined in marriage. No Catholic could support same-sex “marriage” and declare such support to be within the field of faithful Catholicity. Those are radically opposed concepts. And the doctrine of marriage is part of an integrated theology of the human person, his or her native gender, the nature of family and procreation, etc. (Not deconstructible.)

But in any case, I agree with PRMerger, in that examples from you would help.
I like almost everything you said here, but would like a clarification. I agree that no Catholic can support same sex marriage; but as an American I believe that not legalizing same sex marriage is unconstitutional. How would you respond?
 
Sorry–but not sure if you’re addressing Ahimsa’s question or in what context this addresses heresy.
Humanae Vitae is a declaration of the definitive Catholic teaching on birth control. In it Pope Paul declared several things:
  1. Artificial Birth Control is inherently immoral.
  2. Every marriage must be open to life; but we cannot consider the totality of the marriage; each and every marital sex act must be conducted in a way that is ordered to life. This means, literally, that each and every sex act must be completed with intercourse and ejaculation into the vagina.
  3. Euthanasia and abortion warrant excommunication
  4. Sterilization is immoral, even if there are medical reasons why you should not get pregnant.
  5. The Church has the authority to declare this teaching.
If one does not believe all of this, one is heretical.
 
I like almost everything you said here, but would like a clarification. I agree that no Catholic can support same sex marriage; but as an American I believe that not legalizing same sex marriage is unconstitutional. How would you respond?
Thank you. I would respond, and have responded (on many other threads), in line with what some other thinkers have said, that one must begin with What is Marriage? Because until there is a constitutional finding (which there has not been, for homosexual unions) that “marriage is whatever I want it to be” (because it’s supposedly a private relationship between any two adults), then there is no “right” to marry. Marriage is not a matter of private definition, let alone arbitrary definition. It has societal purpose and impact, and the benefits of marriage attach to its privileges. The economic (for example) benefits of marriage are designed by the State to encourage what has been shown throughout the ages to benefit the stability of society: one man, one woman – with the intention of permanence and the assumption that only heterosexual marriages provide the natural laboratory for procreation as well as the ideal complementary environment for the raising of psychologically integrated children, who have been provided the opportunity to assimilate directly the gender-specific traits which are optimal for full human functioning. (Boys needing female mothers, as well as male fathers, to help shape them as individuals and citizens; girls needing the guidance of fathers in addition to their mothers.) I added the gender redundancy because of the unfortunate need to do so in today’s corruption of the radical irreplaceability of gender.

Marriage is more than a private contract between two individuals. Benefits accruing to private contracts (insurance, estates, and the like) can be specificaly formed by parties wishing to enter into such contracts, and needn’t even be limited to homosexuals. In fact, many have argued (including myself) that to create another “special class” of privileged couples who, unlike mixed couples, have no innate right to marry, is an arbitary act which does discriminate against other pairs of individuals who share no sexual bond, but who have compelling reasons to create legal attachments for mutual need or for the protection of vulnerable others (such as any two people taking on the needs of a dependent person of any kind).

I do not believe in extending a special tax class for homosexual couples. They already enjoy such status in some States, and I find it to be a travesty. There is nothing in the constitution indicating such a “right.” Nor does it benefit society to “legitimize” unbalanced relationships which are nothing more than friendship modified by sexual activity. And I’m waiting for the first heterosexual unmarried couple, or the first non-sexual pair of individuals, to file a legal action or a legislative action in this regard.

None of the following areas require the title “marriage.” They can be (and often have been) resolved through other legal instruments:
~insurance
~wills, estates
~hospital visitation
~various financial arrangements such as home ownership, incorporation, etc.

Homosexual couples have no “right” to special tax status.
Homosexual couples have no “right” to obtain a child through adoption or through any other means, just as heterosexual couples have no such constitutional “right.”
Homosexual couples have no consitutional “right” to require the rest of society to share their private enthusiasm for homosexual activity, regardless of how romanticized it is portrayed by such couples. They also have no “right” to coerce society into some form of “official” moral approval, via artificial title. That is not a constitutional concept.

The purpose of the U.S. Constitution is to ensure rights of individuals, not special categories of couples or other groups, and to guard against discrimination of certain varieties – discrimination which relates to opportunities which the courts have ruled are universally inherent to the rights of every citizen (employment, free association, access to education, enfranchisement, housing).

The social justice guidelines of the bishops’ document on Faithful Citizenship reinforce (as does the Catechism) rejection of these categories of discrimination against individuals.
 
I do not believe in extending a special tax class for homosexual couples. They already enjoy such status in some States, and I find it to be a travesty. There is nothing in the constitution indicating such a “right.” Nor does it benefit society to “legitimize” unbalanced relationships which are nothing more than friendship modified by sexual activity.** And I’m waiting for the first heterosexual unmarried couple, or the first non-sexual pair of individuals, to file a legal action or a legislative action in this regard. **

The purpose of the U.S. Constitution is to ensure rights of individuals, not special categories of couples or other groups, and to guard against discrimination of certain varieties – discrimination which relates to opportunities which the courts have ruled are universally inherent to the rights of every citizen (employment, free association, access to education, enfranchisement, housing).

The social justice guidelines of the bishops’ document on Faithful Citizenship reinforce (as does the Catechism) rejection of these categories of discrimination against individuals.
An unmarried heterosexual couple do not have to file a legal action; it is called common law marriage, so after 7 years the couple are viewed by the state as married with all the legal ramifications that involves.
The Constitution does exist to protect the right of individuals; it also serves to protect the rights of the minority from the majority. Same sex marriage falls under these protections as well.
It only takes one state to recognize same sex marriage, as the Constitution says that whatever a state approves, it will be recognized by the other states. This is why the only legal recourse to prevent same sex marriage will be an amendment to the Constitution. I think this is unlikely to happen.
 
An unmarried heterosexual couple do not have to file a legal action; it is called common law marriage, so after 7 years the couple are viewed by the state as married with all the legal ramifications that involves.
And for the first 6 years, they are being treated unequally – relative to homosexual couples-- by the fact that they have not received printed invitations for next month’s Gay Pride Parade. One day of discrimination = discrimination.
The Constitution does exist to protect the right of individuals; it also serves to protect the rights of the minority from the majority.
But as individuals, not as groups. Obviously you can be an individual who is a member of a group because you share common traits which the Courts (not popular -]media/-] fiction) have declared to be a protected class, such as disabled individuals. But even when there’s a Class Action brought on the part of a group of (say) disabled individuals, and the Court makes a determination, the finding applies to all the individuals within the group, not “the group.” It may sound like a technicality, but it’s an important, defining technicality.

You cannot create your special subcategory of minority. As indiividuals, homosexuals are already protected from being discriminated agianst as individuals, and in fact in many cases that extends to coupled living arrangements (i.e., renting an apartment). IOW, not only can a landlord not say, “I don’t rent to [individual] homosexuals.” He or she cannot say, “I don’t rent to homosexuals who want to share an apartment with his or her homosexual lover.”

There is no constitutionally-defined “minority” of “a homosexual couple.”
 
And for the first 6 years, they are being treated unequally – relative to homosexual couples-- by the fact that they have not received printed invitations for next month’s Gay Pride Parade. One day of discrimination = discrimination.

But as individuals, not as groups. Obviously you can be an individual who is a member of a group because you share common traits which the Courts (not popular -]media/-] fiction) have declared to be a protected class, such as disabled individuals. But even when there’s a Class Action brought on the part of a group of (say) disabled individuals, and the Court makes a determination, the finding applies to all the individuals within the group, not “the group.” It may sound like a technicality, but it’s an important, defining technicality.

You cannot create your special subcategory of minority. As indiividuals, homosexuals are already protected from being discriminated agianst as individuals, and in fact in many cases that extends to coupled living arrangements (i.e., renting an apartment). IOW, not only can a landlord not say, “I don’t rent to [individual] homosexuals.” He or she cannot say, “I don’t rent to homosexuals who want to share an apartment with his or her homosexual lover.”

There is no constitutionally-defined “minority” of “a homosexual couple.”
You are really going to compare not allowing same sex marriage with not getting an invite to the Gay Pride parade? Wow.
I have to disagree with the rest of your post; I do not believe that saying gays have the same rights that heterosexuals do, namely to marry someone of the opposite sex, is the same right that I have to choose my life partner. I am glad that I don’t have to face life without my wife; if I were gay, I would want and need the same sort of support.
But I am glad that you are trying to come up with non-religious reasons to reject same sex marriages. If you want to be successful in getting this thru Congress, you will have to develop concrete reasons why gay marriages will damage society,and not rely on it being a sin.
 
Humanae Vitae is a declaration of the definitive Catholic teaching on birth control. In it Pope Paul declared several things:
  1. Artificial Birth Control is inherently immoral.
  2. Every marriage must be open to life; but we cannot consider the totality of the marriage; each and every marital sex act must be conducted in a way that is ordered to life. This means, literally, that each and every sex act must be completed with intercourse and ejaculation into the vagina.
  3. Euthanasia and abortion warrant excommunication
  4. Sterilization is immoral, even if there are medical reasons why you should not get pregnant.
  5. The Church has the authority to declare this teaching.
If one does not believe all of this, one is heretical.
I would only amend a few things in your post above:

If -]one /-] a well-catechized Catholic does not believe all of this, one is -]heretical /-]embracing heresy.

HOWEVER, it would not be correct to label this Catholic a heretic.

The Catechism states that most people who have embraced heresies do not qualify for the term 'heretic". A heretic is a person who has been taught and embraced the Truth, then willfully and obdurately rejects that Truth.
 
I recently read (can’t remember where) that the reason most dissident Catholics stay in the Church is because they realize that if they left then their influence would weaken (i.e. no one would really care what they think). I think this seems reasonable enough with respect to Catholic politicians who support abortion, gay marriage, etc. It also could apply to dissident priests. And even those people in charge of organizations like Catholics for Choice.

But my question is, what about the average layman? The man or woman who attends Mass weekly, yet his opinion on many things is not in accord with the Church. Why do these folks remain in the Church? You can’t really say that they stay for reasons of influence or power. So what is it?

Thanks.
To some extent, I stay so that my family won’t hate me and refuse to talk to me ever again.
 
Why do Catholics stay in the Church when they disagree with basic teachings?
Code:
  1, **They have close family and/or cultural ties.**
  1. They have managed to remain comfortable in the Church while disagreeing with it. Many believe that they can do this. One Italian-American friend put it this way to me:“Our father told us when we were kids that the Church taught certain things with which he disagreed, but don’t worry if that happens to you. Doctrine isn’t all that important. The Church can and does serve important psychological and sociological needs, while its doctrines and some of its practices are archaic and can be ignored.”

    3.** Another active Catholic says she tried to leave the Church but after parochial schooling she found herself emotionally tied to the Church.** Her children have left, she added, and that doesn’t bother her as long as her grandchildren were baptized. Cultural tradition more than religious faith.
    1. **The Church may be primitive in much of what it teaches, but some are deeply involved in and committed to its programs to feed the hungry, achieve social justice, oppose stupid wars, etc. **They don’t want the Church to be taken over by neanderthals who focus most of their attention on correct doctrine and cultic loyalty but have little interest in a better society. Some both admire John Paul II and Benedict XVI while worrying that under them the leadership of the Church has moved dangerously to the right.
 
Why do Catholics stay in the Church when they disagree with basic teachings?
Code:
        4. **The Church may be primitive in much of what it teaches, but some are deeply involved in and committed to its programs to feed the hungry, achieve social justice, oppose stupid wars, etc. **They don't want the Church to be taken over by neanderthals who focus most of their attention on correct doctrine and cultic loyalty but have little interest in a better society. Some both admire John Paul II and Benedict XVI while worrying that under them the leadership of the Church has moved dangerously to the right.
Wow. What a non-prejudiced view.

The Roman Church is “primitive.”

Those who understand that social justice flows from correct doctrine, does not oppose it, are “neanderthals.”

Anything that is not Left is “dangeorus.”

:rolleyes:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top