Why do liberal Catholics stay in the Church?

[theswan]

2478
To avoid rash judgment, everyone should be careful to interpret insofar as possible his neighbor’s thoughts, words, and deeds in a favorable way:

    Every good Christian ought to be more ready to give a favorable interpretation to another's statement than to condemn it. But if he cannot do so, let him ask how the other understands it. And if the latter understands it badly, let the former correct him with love. If that does not suffice, let the Christian try all suitable ways to bring the other to a correct interpretation so that he may be saved.280

2479
Detraction and calumny destroy the reputation and honor of one’s neighbor. Honor is the social witness given to human dignity, and everyone enjoys a natural right to the honor of his name and reputation and to respect. Thus, detraction and calumny offend against the virtues of justice and charity.

2480
Every word or attitude is forbidden which by flattery, adulation, or complaisance encourages and confirms another in malicious acts and perverse conduct. Adulation is a grave fault if it makes one an accomplice in another’s vices or grave sins. Neither the desire to be of service nor friendship justifies duplicitous speech. Adulation is a venial sin when it only seeks to be agreeable, to avoid evil, to meet a need, or to obtain legitimate advantages.

2481
Boasting or bragging is an offense against truth. So is irony aimed at disparaging someone by maliciously caricaturing some aspect of his behavior. MY Opinion is that we have no right to put anothers opinion down as it disrespects them. We must temper with love, not offer church teachings as WE see them. Even this post can be construed as to make me guilty because I am. Voice opinion not state teaching of… 2487!

 

[KSU]

Theswan, if you are looking for sympathy because of your (self-made) situation, you have it; we all pray for you. We all are sinners and we understand the pain you are experiencing.

But if you are trying to convert us to your Liberalism, you are on the wrong Forum for that, my friend. Catholicism is a lot about absolutes, i.e., doctrine which says this is right, that is wrong. Your recommended ‘Perhaps the Church means this or that’ about its teachings is relativism-- the lifeblood of Liberalism and error. Private opinion is OK where the Church is silent, but please don’t try to sell us your utilitarianism in lieu of doctrine.

I pray that teaching Catholicism is not another one of your ministries at your parish.

 

[theswan]

The Church has been often wrong thousands have paid with their life.

I have a right and obligation to speak as I choose. You are speaking as authority and you sir are not authority!

Glen

 

[estesbob]

The Church has been often wrong thousands have paid with their life.

I have a right and obligation to speak as I choose. You are speaking as authority and you sir are not authority!

Glen

You have the right to speak as you choose and we have the right to point out when people have rejected Church teachings in favor of their politic views. A Catholic can not support a pro-abortion candidate .

 

[estesbob]

The Church has been often wrong thousands have paid with their life.

I have a right and obligation to speak as I choose. You are speaking as authority and you sir are not authority!

Glen

Speking of authority:

“No, you can never vote for someone who favors absolutely what’s called the ‘right to choice’ of a woman to destroy human life in her womb, or the right to a procured abortion,”

Cardinal Edmund Burke

Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.

Pope Benedict XVI

Obviously, we have other important issues facing us this fall: the economy, the war in Iraq, immigration justice. But we can’t build a healthy society while ignoring the routine and very profitable legalized homicide that goes on every day against America’s unborn children. The right to life is foundational. Every other right depends on it. Efforts to reduce abortions, or to create alternatives to abortion, or to foster an environment where more women will choose to keep their unborn child, can have great merit–but not if they serve to cover over or distract from the brutality and fundamental injustice of abortion itself. We should remember that one of the crucial things that set early Christians apart from the pagan culture around them was their rejection of abortion and infanticide. Yet for thirty-five years I’ve watched prominent “pro-choice” Catholics justify themselves with the kind of moral and verbal gymnastics that should qualify as an Olympic event. All they’ve really done is capitulate to Roe v. Wade.

*Archbishop Charles Chaput

 

[sw85]

The Church has been often wrong thousands have paid with their life.

I have a right and obligation to speak as I choose. You are speaking as authority and you sir are not authority!

Glen

Do you even know “authority” means?

I ask this because you clearly don’t know what “rights” or “obligations” mean in a Catholic context, so…

 

[Aboveallbereal]

The Church has been often wrong thousands have paid with their life.

I have a right and obligation to speak as I choose. You are speaking as authority and you sir are not authority!

Glen

Swan this type of discussion can often be clarified by the participants asking themselves a question: Do I accept the teaching magisterium?

I am not asking you this question. I don’t expect an answer. I am not asking anyone this question. I am saying that it is a useful precursor to honestly discussing the issues being discussed in this thread.

 

[estesbob]

Swan this type of discussion can often be clarified by the participants asking themselves a question: Do I accept the teaching magisterium?

I am not asking you this question. I don’t expect an answer. I am not asking anyone this question. I am saying that it is a useful precursor to honestly discussing the issues being discussed in this thread.

Some of us have posted direct quotes from members of the Magestrium.

 

[Mudgely]

I recently read (can’t remember where) that the reason most dissident Catholics stay in the Church is because they realize that if they left then their influence would weaken (i.e. no one would really care what they think). I think this seems reasonable enough with respect to Catholic politicians who support abortion, gay marriage, etc. It also could apply to dissident priests. And even those people in charge of organizations like Catholics for Choice.

But my question is, what about the average layman? The man or woman who attends Mass weekly, yet his opinion on many things is not in accord with the Church. Why do these folks remain in the Church? You can’t really say that they stay for reasons of influence or power. So what is it?

Thanks.

Because they are optimistic, and think that the other Catholics can grow morally and spiritually, and they want to be there to help the church evolve into something better?

 

[KSU]

Because they are optimistic, and think that the other Catholics can grow morally and spiritually, and they want to be there to help the church evolve into something better?

Right. Christ didn’t have a clue when He established His Church. Who did He think He was, God? But don’t worry; Liberals will help the Church evolve into something better-- especially, of course, in all matters below the waist.

 

[Dirt]

I recently read (can’t remember where) that the reason most dissident Catholics stay in the Church is because they realize that if they left then their influence would weaken (i.e. no one would really care what they think). I think this seems reasonable enough with respect to Catholic politicians who support abortion, gay marriage, etc. It also could apply to dissident priests. And even those people in charge of organizations like Catholics for Choice.

But my question is, what about the average layman? The man or woman who attends Mass weekly, yet his opinion on many things is not in accord with the Church. Why do these folks remain in the Church? You can’t really say that they stay for reasons of influence or power. So what is it?

Thanks.

If you read this:
papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10pasce.htm

And this:
papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10lamen.htm

you will understand this:
“Why do these folks remain in the Church?”

For the “father of all lies”, to destroy from within is a much better tactic than from without.

 

[AamahJones]

They stay because they have no where else to go. Because they believe that Christ is their saviour and that HE is present in the Eucharist to receive it is to be ONE with HIM. No other church can give them that. They receive because they believe the prayer, “Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, say but the word and I shall be healed.”

They are disappointed with the Organization of the Church. They see it as a group of men with absolute power over millions of people but are totally out of touch. The Cardinals and Bishops live in palaces and mansions with servants and vestments more valuable than most persons homes but beg pennies from those with the least to give. They claim dominion over women’s bodies.

They’ve written scores of rules and regulations but forget the one great commandment. “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.” And the second, “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

They judge and condemn. Only God has that privilege.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

They stay because they have no where else to go. Because they believe that Christ is their saviour and that HE is present in the Eucharist to receive it is to be ONE with HIM. No other church can give them that. They receive because they believe the prayer, “Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, say but the word and I shall be healed.”

They are disappointed with the Organization of the Church. They see it as a group of men with absolute power over millions of people but are totally out of touch. The Cardinals and Bishops live in palaces and mansions with servants and vestments more valuable than most persons homes but beg pennies from those with the least to give. They claim dominion over women’s bodies.

They’ve written scores of rules and regulations but forget the one great commandment. “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.” And the second, “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

They judge and condemn. Only God has that privilege.

You sir or madam, are not a Catholic. None of what you posted is true, and your post has been reported.

 

[estesbob]

They stay because they have no where else to go. Because they believe that Christ is their saviour and that HE is present in the Eucharist to receive it is to be ONE with HIM. No other church can give them that. They receive because they believe the prayer, “Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, say but the word and I shall be healed.”

They are disappointed with the Organization of the Church. They see it as a group of men with absolute power over millions of people but are totally out of touch. The Cardinals and Bishops live in palaces and mansions with servants and vestments more valuable than most persons homes but beg pennies from those with the least to give. They claim dominion over women’s bodies.

They’ve written scores of rules and regulations but forget the one great commandment. “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.” And the second, “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

They judge and condemn. Only God has that privilege.

Welcome to CAF. Hopefully will learn a lot about what the Church teaches here Based on your initial post you need it.

 

[SurlyMermaid]

You sir or madam, are not a Catholic. None of what you posted is true, and your post has been reported.

Why would you report this? If I"m understanding the post correctly, I know several people who feel this way. It’s an answer to the OP’s orignal question. One thing I keep reading here is who are we to discern who is Catholic and who isn’t?

I was introduced to Catholicism by a colleague who felt pretty much like this. I was surprised she was Catholic; she was very pro-choice, pro-ABC, etc. I told her I was surprised and she said, “Here’s a secret: 95% of Catholics don’t believe what the Church teaches on several things.”

But, I adored and respected this woman so it was another catalyst for me learning about the Church. And here I am.

 

[Contarini]

You sir or madam, are not a Catholic. None of what you posted is true, and your post has been reported.

That’s a truly bizarre post. Someone who says that only in the Catholic Church can Jesus be found in the Eucharist (which even the Catholic Church doesn’t teach, since it recognizes Orthodox sacraments) is not a Catholic?

This is a poisonous attitude, far more likely to destroy Catholicism than any amount of “liberalism” or heresy.

However, I’m confident that not even the defenders of “orthodoxy” will manage to destroy the Church.

And if you wish to report me, by all means do so.

Edwin

 

[Roy5]

You sir or madam, are not a Catholic. None of what you posted is true, and your post has been reported.

** Wow! I guess it’s dangerous to express unapproved views here**. I certainly hope not. I follow CAF to read various and instructive views and wouldn’t waste my time if everybody had to salute and never express honest and divergent opinions… I hope the Church permits freedom of speech. I recall that Hitler’s Germany and Stalin’s USSR didn’t, and see what happened to them.

** Will the Church allow people who love the Church to ask sincere questions, even air doubts and give honest answers to questions being asked - such as this one?** If not, well…eventually it could die, to be replaced perhaps by a broader, more flexible Christianity centered less on uniform doctrine and more on the Sermon on the Mount and Matthew 25, This narrowness is one reason it has lost so much clout in many areas of the world - Ireland, Spain, Austria, Canada, USA, etc. Humanity will not be denied its investigative spirit. To try to sqelch it is suicidal.
**God bless everybody - no exceptions.**

 

[KSU]

That’s a truly bizarre post. Someone who says that only in the Catholic Church can Jesus be found in the Eucharist (which even the Catholic Church doesn’t teach, since it recognizes Orthodox sacraments) is not a Catholic?

This is a poisonous attitude, far more likely to destroy Catholicism than any amount of “liberalism” or heresy.

However, I’m confident that not even the defenders of “orthodoxy” will manage to destroy the Church.

And if you wish to report me, by all means do so.

Edwin

Hello, Edwin, my old friend. I see you still like to hang around the CAF and attack orthodox Catholics like Juliane. You put words in her mouth and then criticized her “bizarre” and “poisonous” post.

If as an Episcopalian you must defend unorthodox comments on this board by attacking Catholic posters, could you please at least do so in a context that relates to the OP’s question?

BTW, I have reported you to your Guardian Angel, who is a Roman Catholic

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Please discuss the OP, not each other.

 

[Snowshoes]

I am not a cradle Catholic so it is possible that that my view is overly simplified. My understanding is that having, facilitating or promoting abortion is defined by the church as a mortal sin. When someone commits mortal sin, the person severs their connection to the Holy Spirit. Many Catholics commit mortal sin throughout their lives and repair their connection to the Holy Spirit through reconciliation.

It is good that Pro-Choice proponents who are Catholic continue to attend church and are exposed to the true presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. I believe that Mary would encourage Pro-Choice Catholics to participate in Eucharistic Adoration as well. Certainly St Paul strongly cautioned those in mortal sin against receiving communion but did not kick them out of the church.

This thread is sort of disturbing to me in that it seems to be a discussion of “Why do Pro-Choice Catholics stay in the Church?” In my experience the church embraces both liberal and conservative ideas. Abortion should be a practice that is rejected by both liberals and conservatives as infanticide was rejected by all early Christians.