Why do liberal Catholics stay in the Church?

[KSU]

“However, if you look now at the Republican party at the top, they are all anti-environmentalists. Everyone of them.”

lynn, you are a good-hearted person, and educated and motivated to boot. That’s as good as it gets. I wish you were on my side politically.

Government is a place where Christ’s will for his people can be facilitated. (A more important place of course, is the heart of each person, and you seem to have that one covered). I’m older and far more politically experienced than you, so please trust me when I say that neither political nor Catholic orthodoxy/conservatism is the enemy of our country, our Church or the wonderful gift of the environment–God’s jewelry box, as someone once said.

No doubt, your “Carmelite president up north” would characterize the above as arrogance, one of the ‘sins of the right’. (St. Teresa pray for us).

The ability of the environmental and political Left to use political chicanery to make the good-hearted feel guilty, and even to become confused about Church teaching, is frightening.

 

[formerlysure]

I second that global warming being caused by humans is not a “given”. As many notable/respected scientists as not argue it is as likely the result of normal climate change as human impact…dramatic climate change is not new to our world (think ice age). I would guess that the truth lies somewhere in the middle with human behavior playing a part, normal variations over millenia in temperature playing a greater part. In any event, I don’t think it’s a “moral” issue - even the most ardent among those who posit that human behavior is wholly responsible point to decades, if not centuries, of human behavior being the cumulative cause of global warming. I’m not sure that we had the knowledge years ago that we have today about these things to be able to reasonably call it a “moral” issue, and certainly not to equate it with the informed decision to abort a baby.

While some species like polar bears are suffering presently, we also have to celebrate that we’ve made major strides for many other species. Bald Eagles are making a huge resurgence, for example. Timber wolves, mountain lions - many American species are making strong comebacks. But we must coexist with our environment, and it’s always a tradeoff, with us not always understanding the impact of our actions in the present.

If a man does not have recycling in his building so throws too much stuff in the trash a sinner? I think that’s a bit of a stretch. If he owns a refinery and dumps waste in a river, I would say that is certainly a sin and is very serious. But I don’t know of anyone in government who would argue that he did the right thing. It’s not a liberal or conservative issue - it’s common sense not to do such a heinous thing.

I also would reject the argument that today’s Republican leadership are all anti-environment. I think that’s a mischaracterization of their stand on these issues. The main Republican message today is that federal government cannot manage every issue. Federal intervention is the most costly, least effective means for resolving problems in many cases, and on that basis, some initiatives wanted by various parties are rejected - not because the goal is bad but because the method is bad.

For example, look at the issue of immigration. Some would say that because conservatives want the borders protected and for people to only come here legally, those people “hate” or are “intolerant” of immigrants. Not so. They want control over our safety, our costs, to invest limited resources in citizens and those who come here legally, to protect states that are overburdened to the point of bankruptcy supporting illegal immigrants and managing criminal behaviors along our borders and so on. They are against lawlessness, not against humanity.

It’s important as well to note that government is not so easy for either side. Any legislator will tell you that they have to compromise, sometimes in really painful ways, to get anything done. Should they be considered sinners because they compromise on their values, when the other option is to accomplish nothing? I would say it’s more moral to accomplish as much as they can toward a more moral society.

I would further argue that the difficulty in passing law and making changes is as it should be. Otherwise we’d be changing everything each time a new President or legislator got into office, and they’d have far too much power. Slow and steady wins the race.

 

[KSU]

Good post formerlysure, and look at this:

nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=1ea8233f-14da-4a44-b839-b71a9e5df868

 

[lynnvinc]

Whilst your concern for the environment is laudible, global warming etc has been blown out of all proportion to worry people like you

Not so at all, it is grossly underestimated and dismissed by skeptics and denialists, many funded by Exxon and Koch Industries. Don’t be misled by the devoils; it is very tempting to deny one’s complicity in the destruction of life.

We are fast approaching “game over,” tipping points into very severe harms to life on earth, with the possibility of ending all life on earth, by pushing the system into runaway warming or the venus syndrome. I’ve studied this like a hawk for over 20 years, almost on a daily basis, and I have a very good science background to understand it. This is the most serious threat to life on earth, except for all out thermo-nuclear war, or some planet dashing into earth, or the sun getting so hot that it annihilates all life of earth, which it will happen in about a billion years on the sun’s way to self-destruction.

That people, that Christians, that Catholics can ignore this and bury their heads in the sand is unconscionable.

Luckily JPII and BXVI have always advised us to mitigate climate change for over 20 years. There is some goodness in the Catholic Church. The other religions are left without moral rudders.

 

[KSU]

“I’ve studied this like a hawk for over 20 years, almost on a daily basis, and I have a very good science background to understand it. This is the most serious threat to life on earth, except for all out thermo-nuclear war…”

One person’s scientist is another person’s fraud looking for more grant money (i.e.,taxes) in order to keep from having to work for a living. Twenty years ago “scientists” were warning us that the earth was cooling and that soon it would be all over for us.

We must have provided too much money because we altered the cooling trend so much that now we are all going to burn up–unless we vote for Democrats and drastically increase our taxes to save the environment. I’m so confused.

thenewamerican.com/tech-mainmenu-30/environment/3583-earth-is-cooling-sea-levels-not-rising-scientists-say

 

[Jerome_Fan]

Not so at all, it is grossly underestimated and dismissed by skeptics and denialists, many funded by Exxon and Koch Industries. Don’t be misled by the devoils; it is very tempting to deny one’s complicity in the destruction of life.

We are fast approaching “game over,” tipping points into very severe harms to life on earth, with the possibility of ending all life on earth, by pushing the system into runaway warming or the venus syndrome. I’ve studied this like a hawk for over 20 years, almost on a daily basis, and I have a very good science background to understand it. This is the most serious threat to life on earth, except for all out thermo-nuclear war, or some planet dashing into earth, or the sun getting so hot that it annihilates all life of earth, which it will happen in about a billion years on the sun’s way to self-destruction.

That people, that Christians, that Catholics can ignore this and bury their heads in the sand is unconscionable.

Luckily JPII and BXVI have always advised us to mitigate climate change for over 20 years. There is some goodness in the Catholic Church. The other religions are left without moral rudders.

Unfortunately, you only see what you want to see. Keep focusing on the litter around you and not on the murder of the innocents. Who is in denial? Liberals and Protestants who insist that the world is more important than the Law of God.

 

[Jerome_Fan]

Unfortunately, you only see what you want to see. Keep focusing on the litter around you and not on the murder of the innocents. Who is in denial? Liberals and Protestants who insist that the world is more important than the Law of God.

The knowledge of scientists if not complete. They only know what God wants them to know. The wisdom of men is folly to God. Jesus said ‘Do not worry’ and unless we are personally blowing up the Ice shelves in Antartica, we can only live our simple lives in the hope that God will protect us from the great catastrophes that have overwhelmed Nature since time began. Stop fretting about what you cannot change and do something to end the evils of abortion and euthanasia. These you will answer to God for, not the state of the earth. That is in His Hands. God bless you.

 

[Jerome_Fan]

“I’ve studied this like a hawk for over 20 years, almost on a daily basis, and I have a very good science background to understand it. This is the most serious threat to life on earth, except for all out thermo-nuclear war…”

One person’s scientist is another person’s fraud looking for more grant money (i.e.,taxes) in order to keep from having to work for a living. Twenty years ago “scientists” were warning us that the earth was cooling and that soon it would be all over for us.

We must have provided too much money because we altered the cooling trend so much that now we are all going to burn up–unless we vote for Democrats and drastically increase our taxes to save the environment. I’m so confused.

thenewamerican.com/tech-mainmenu-30/environment/3583-earth-is-cooling-sea-levels-not-rising-scientists-say

The world will end when God decides. That could be in thousands of years’ time. We do not know. Read what Jesus says about it. He tells us that it is not for us to know when the world will end. There have been people forever telling that it is the end of the world and we are all still here. I don’t mean to be flippant, but this reminds me of what Shakespeare said in one of his plays “Worse fears are less than horrible imaginings”. Stop worrying, live a good life, love God above all things and your neighbour as yourself. You can do no better than that. God bless you.

 

[KSU]

Jerome, I hope you realize I was just being sarcastic while commenting on lynn’s statement that she has been studying global warming “like a hawk for over 20 years, almost on a daily basis, and I have a very good science background to understand it. This is the most serious threat to life on earth, except for all out thermo-nuclear war…”

Of course you are correct: we should rely on common sense, avoid pollution insofar as possible and leave the rest to God. Personally, I am certain that “global warming” already has been shown to be a scam by charlatan “scientists”, and, like them, is being used by Democrat politicians to raise billions of tax dollars, e.g., Cap and Trade.

The normal cooling and heating of the earth is all according to God’s plan, and has been occurring since before records were kept. You know the story: Because of higher temperatures a thousand years ago, wheat used to grow in Greenland, grapes used to grow in Yorkshire, etc.

 

[Jerome_Fan]

Jerome, I hope you realize I was just being sarcastic while commenting on lynn’s statement that she has been studying global warming “like a hawk for over 20 years, almost on a daily basis, and I have a very good science background to understand it. This is the most serious threat to life on earth, except for all out thermo-nuclear war…”

Of course you are correct: we should rely on common sense, avoid pollution insofar as possible and leave the rest to God. Personally, I am certain that “global warming” already has been shown to be a scam by charlatan “scientists”, and, like them, is being used by Democrat politicians to raise billions of tax dollars, e.g., Cap and Trade.

The normal cooling and heating of the earth is all according to God’s plan, and has been occurring since before records were kept. You know the story: Because of higher temperatures a thousand years ago, wheat used to grow in Greenland, grapes used to grow in Yorkshire, etc.

Totally agree. It is like when these ‘scientists’ speak about ‘evolution’. The world gets older and older. At first, it was `100 thousand years ago’, then ‘8 million years ago’ and now it is ‘billions and billions of years ago’ ending in the same nauseating nonsense about how we all ‘evolved’ from microbes out of the ocean. Catholic physicists have proven evolution to be a lie, merely by pointing out that we get a little bit further from the sun each year. If you were to reverse this scenario, we would burn up in the sun in less than 12 thousand years. Yet these lies are being taught to every school child as gospel, although it is referred to as ‘evolutionary theory’. Why is this so? It is because if the devil can convince people that the creation story is wrong, he can undermine belief in God. Hence, our unenlightened leaders have led us down the dark hallways to Hell. The politics of fear about the environment is just a strand of this. If you can convince people that the earth is somehow threatened by us as a species, it is so easy to usher in abortion and euthanasia. It seems to me sometimes that the world has gone mad!!!

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Catholic physicists have proven evolution to be a lie, merely by pointing out that we get a little bit further from the sun each year. If you were to reverse this scenario, we would burn up in the sun in less than 12 thousand years.

Do you have a reference for this exciting new scientific discovery?

 

[Jerome_Fan]

Do you have a reference for this exciting new scientific discovery?

I attended a fabulous talk given by a Catholic physicist and a speaker from the Kolbe Centre in Westminster, London last Aug/Sep time. I am afraid I do not remember his name. He had loads of scientific data that certainly convinced me. But I realise that speaking against the gospel according to evolutionists is taboo. The subject seems to be closed as far as the prevailing opinions are concerned. I would suggest that you, first of all, realise that evolution is merely a theory and the dating of fossils is fatally flawed. There is plenty on the Internet on it. I am not a science student as such, but I do choose to believe that God created the world and He will end it in His own time. I do not need science to confirm my beliefs. God bless.

 

[Jerome_Fan]

Do you have a reference for this exciting new scientific discovery?

Also, Catholics are not the only ones to call out evolutionists. Kent Hovind, who is a Baptist preacher, has a whole series of programmes on this subject. He has offered to debate the subject with Richard Dawkins on several occasions, but has been ignored. I, for one, would love to see that debate take place.

 

[Jerome_Fan]

Also, Catholics are not the only ones to call out evolutionists. Kent Hovind, who is a Baptist preacher, has a whole series of programmes on this subject. He has offered to debate the subject with Richard Dawkins on several occasions, but has been ignored. I, for one, would love to see that debate take place.

I just came across a wonderful quote from Fulton J Sheen’s book, Life of Christ - “…scientists are the proof-readers, not the authors of the Book of Nature; they can see and examine My handiwork, but they cannot create one atom themselves.” (Life of Christ;p67). God bless

 

[lynnvinc]

Totally agree. It is like when these ‘scientists’ speak about ‘evolution’. The world gets older and older. At first, it was `100 thousand years ago’, then ‘8 million years ago’ and now it is ‘billions and billions of years ago’ ending in the same nauseating nonsense about how we all ‘evolved’ from microbes out of the ocean. Catholic physicists have proven evolution to be a lie, merely by pointing out that we get a little bit further from the sun each year. If you were to reverse this scenario, we would burn up in the sun in less than 12 thousand years. Yet these lies are being taught to every school child as gospel, although it is referred to as ‘evolutionary theory’. Why is this so? It is because if the devil can convince people that the creation story is wrong, he can undermine belief in God. Hence, our unenlightened leaders have led us down the dark hallways to Hell. The politics of fear about the environment is just a strand of this. If you can convince people that the earth is somehow threatened by us as a species, it is so easy to usher in abortion and euthanasia. It seems to me sometimes that the world has gone mad!!!

You forgot to mention the darned heliocentrics who think the earth goes around the sun. Anyone can see that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, just as the Bible often refers to it. When or when will people come to understand that it has always been and always will be a geocentric world (sorry for my elusion to geo=gaia).

And now that we’ve opened the floodgates – what about that stupid theory of gravity. Everyone knows there are angels floating around without wings (over 10,000 hovering above the head of a pin), and what about God in heaven. Gravity is obviously a figment of a druggy’s imagination.

And we all know about the vault of heaven that has some leaks in it, or how else do we explain how the waters above the earth come down as rain. And it’s not due to gravity either – there are lots angels up there throwing down each drop of water – and some sleeping on the job, which is why we have droughts.

Thank God for those conservative scientists who are setting everyone straight (meant several ways), if people would only vote for them then ALL the problems of the universe would be solved, and we’d all go to heaven … next year.

 

[KSU]

lynn, you’re hitting below the belt. Even the enemies of the Church know that Heliocentricism was never declared a heresy by either ex cathedra pronouncement or an ecumenical council, and that Galileo’s condemnation centered on other matters–such as his insistence that science trumps theology. Moreover, some of what Galileo championed was wrong.

The freedom due legitimate science (fostered and protected by the Church) was violated, ironically, by some authorities, but Galileo was no innocent bystander either, viz:

“‘The Victorian biologist Thomas Henry Huxley, who had no brief for Catholicism, once examined the case and concluded that “the Church had the best of it.’ The most striking point about the whole affair is that until Galileo forced the issue into the realm of theology, the Church had been a willing ombudsman for the new astronomy. It had encouraged the work of Copernicus and sheltered Kepler against the persecutions of Calvinists. Problems only arose when the debate went beyond the mere question of celestial mechanics.” catholiceducation.org/articles/history/world/wh0005.html

 

[lynnvinc]

lynn, you’re hitting below the belt. Even the enemies of the Church know that Heliocentricism was never declared a heresy by either ex cathedra pronouncement or an ecumenical council,…

I wasn’t referring to our beautiful Church, which has always had great respect for science (in fact science arose out of Catholicism), and not only accepts evolution, but also anthropogenic climate change. I was referring to the Republican candidates in the U.S., who to a man and woman reject science.

Well, Huntsman did say he accepted science earlier, and Gingrich seemed amenable to doing something about climate change, but now they’ve back-pedalled on that – so now they too are pro-death candidates, just like the other conservatives (and liberals).

So that’s just another way in which political conservatives are in opposition to Catholicism. The other ways including their strong stance against social justice. However, granted that conservatives are good on the abortion issue & political liberals mostly bad, except Rep. Lipinski and ex-Rep. Bart Stupak - who seem to be the only reps among both liberals and conservatives in line with Catholicism on all issues. And what did the conservatives do to Stupak but threaten his family members’ lives and push him out of politics.

 

[socialcath101]

How does one define “liberal?”

Me I’m big on social justice for the poor and oppressed. One can be liberal and in good standing with the Church as long as one Catholic abides by the Church’s other teachings (abortion, marriage etc)…

Because the social justice component of the Church is quite liberal… The call for universal healthcare, preferential option for the poor, social safety net, just wage theory…

All of its there… I guess that makes me a “liberal Catholic”

 

[KSU]

“I wasn’t referring to our beautiful Church, which has always had great respect for science (in fact science arose out of Catholicism), and not only accepts evolution, but also anthropogenic climate change. I was referring to the Republican candidates in the U.S., who to a man and woman reject science.”—lynn

The Church does not accept evolution in any sense that term is understood by atheists. The Church considers that to be heresy.

The Church has never taught that anthropogenic climate change is scientific fact–it accepts anthropogenic pollution of the environment, as does everyone else.

It is just silly (actually it borders on calumny) to state that “…Republican candidates in the U.S… to a man and woman reject science.” Even the most wild-eyed Democrat politician does not believe that.

 

[Jerome_Fan]

You forgot to mention the darned heliocentrics who think the earth goes around the sun. Anyone can see that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, just as the Bible often refers to it. When or when will people come to understand that it has always been and always will be a geocentric world (sorry for my elusion to geo=gaia).

And now that we’ve opened the floodgates – what about that stupid theory of gravity. Everyone knows there are angels floating around without wings (over 10,000 hovering above the head of a pin), and what about God in heaven. Gravity is obviously a figment of a druggy’s imagination.

And we all know about the vault of heaven that has some leaks in it, or how else do we explain how the waters above the earth come down as rain. And it’s not due to gravity either – there are lots angels up there throwing down each drop of water – and some sleeping on the job, which is why we have droughts.

Thank God for those conservative scientists who are setting everyone straight (meant several ways), if people would only vote for them then ALL the problems of the universe would be solved, and we’d all go to heaven … next year.

Your ramblings do not change facts that are proven by using reason. Physicists have proven the falsity of the ‘theory of evolution’ for years, but are not listened to because that ‘theory’ has now become a religion believed by those who are uncomfortable with the notion that God created the world. If you prefer to ascribe to the evolution religion by scoffing Catholic beliefs - on your own soul be it. Open your mind to the possibility that God is real and He did create everything - even you. His Will be done in everything.