Why do liberals act like they can't live without contraception and abortions?

[LisaA]

I don’t believe humans or any animals need to live by some strict code to keep their lives “ordered”. I don’t believe homosexuality is wrong because it is “disordered”. I don’t see how something being “disordered” makes it immoral. If it were, being sterile would be immoral. I also fail to see how other sexual sin in Catholicism are “disordered” such as masturbation, as it doesn’t really have too much of an affect on reproduction.

My point is that natural law is a misnomer, and is not actually a view of what is natural to decide what is right or wrong, but more a subjective opinion on how people should live their lives.

Opinions are like rear ends. Everyone has one. You have your opinion which I must assume means you are homosexual and thus wish to justify what is abnormal (biologically), disordered (theologically) and detrimental to your mental, physical and emotional health.

Our bodies are designed to function in a certain way. There is one use for the reproductive organs found in nature. Theologically we take God’s intent for the way we are to use the gift of our physical nature as well. We can act in ways against our physical nature and it has consequences. But for some the perceived rewards are more important than the long term effect. Thus we also consider excessive eating and drinking as abnormal behavior. I think the term ‘disordered’ has a certain perjorative tone and thus it is rejected by those who wish to claim abnormal behavior is normal. But it doesn’t change reality. A man’s body and a woman’s body are complimentary and designed to join together for procreation and bonding in the marital relationship. Two men and two women can use their bodies in a way nature didn’t intend. That doesn’t make it normal.

Lisa

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Animals can learn and be trained for example to use a litter box. Animals share food with their offspring and with respect to certain species pairs help feed each other. I do not think this is a moral decision but an expression of an instinct. Mammals of course nurse their new babies so they do not have to gather food as do birds.

I grew up on a farm and daily observed the behavior of many domesticated species as well as the wild species that lived in our pastures and woods. I assure you they pooped wherever they were as do cats and dogs not enclosed or trained to a litter pan. They also fought over food…sheep can be quite aggressive when it comes to the molasses tub I assure you. And if you’ve ever owned multiple dogs or cats, you surely have not observed self sacrifice when it came to the food dish…oh no Frisky, YOU first, please have that best piece of Fancy Feast!

We bred animals as well and frankly do not remember a male animal or female in heat ever abstaining. In fact we were often amazed at the lengths both male and female animals went to in order to satisfy their instinctive drives.

I love animals and treat them very kindly. I do not expect morality or self sacrificial behavior from them though.

As to humans, it is those who DO revert to the pressures of their limbic brain who create many if not most of the problems in this world. They exhibit behavior of animals.

Lisa

In my experience ideologies that are strong enough to completely subvert and/or repress natural and healthy human drives (like the survival instinct or the sex drive) do far more harm than anything else.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

As a Catholic, I believe it is wrong, as a daughter of two biology professors, I believe it is unnatural…in that we are fighting our nature, we are fighting what nature intended, and the way we are ordered.

As to your second statement, you are not actually an atheist, you are simply substituting the gods of science, technology and the human mind from God we worship. My parents had the exact viewpoint so it’s easily recognizable.

Lisa

So are brick houses, indoor plumbing, cell phones, and cars.

So what?
Who* really *cares if something is unnatural?

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8
That doesn’t mean its wrong.
And I do think that our ability to develop science and technology is the most important thing that separates us from the animals

As a Catholic, I believe it is wrong, as a daughter of two biology professors, I believe it is unnatural…in that we are fighting our nature, we are fighting what nature intended, and the way we are ordered.

As to your second statement, you are not actually an atheist, you are simply substituting the gods of science, technology and the human mind from God we worship. My parents had the exact viewpoint so it’s easily recognizable.

Lisa

Wrong.

I do not worship science and technology (although I admit I have a great deal of respect for both, certainly far more than I have for any supposed god) and feel free to question them (as I have in the past).

Such behavior is quite distinctive from that of a devoted worshipper.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Being an atheist you dismiss our Catholic centered morals. Further you or your fellow atheist poster claimed animals exhibited “moral” behavior where I maintain they exhibit instinctive behavior. Man is distinguished by his ability to withstand those very pressures, to make self sacrifice even in cases where there is no relationship. You (or your fellow athiest sorry can’t remember which is which) claim that contraception is the height of our humanity and I say no, it’s neither natural nor moral.

Thus I pointed out that the very same morals have their origination in natural law and the way we were ordered.** I maintain that going against our nature results in negative consequences. ** This can be seen both in biology and in morality, particularly with respect to abortion.

Lisa

So you are against self-sacrifice then (which is against our natural survival instinct) and believe that men should impregnate as many women as possible (which would be in line with our sex drive)?

 

[interestedman]

So you are against self-sacrifice then (which is against our natural survival instinct) and believe that men should impregnate as many women as possible (which would be in line with our sex drive)?

If we lived by our natural drives every teenager would be a rapist. It is only (unnatural) laws and morals that stop teenagers from behaving like this.

 

[LisaA]

In my experience ideologies that are strong enough to completely subvert and/or repress natural and healthy human drives (like the survival instinct or the sex drive) do far more harm than anything else.

You’re joking right? Surpression of “healthy” drives like lust for power, money and influence are the cause of far more deaths than some teen having to surpress his desire to watch porn? Good grief…you were joking right?

Lisa

 

[LisaA]

So you are against self-sacrifice then (which is against our natural survival instinct) and believe that men should impregnate as many women as possible (which would be in line with our sex drive)?

You forget we have a nature given to us by God which has that potential for self sacrifice. That is what makes us different than animals. It’s when we act on our limbic brain without using our human spirit that we get into trouble.

Lisa

 

[Holly3278]

You don’t, because I’m on birth control. If I wasn’t on bc I’d probably have an abortion, and if that wasn’t legal I’d give the kid up, and then you would be footing the bill for yet another child in the system.

Personally I’d rather foot the bill for another child in the “system” than have to know that yet another unborn child has been brutally murdered.

 

[Regular_Atheist]

Opinions are like rear ends. Everyone has one. You have your opinion which I must assume means you are homosexual and thus wish to justify what is abnormal (biologically), disordered (theologically) and detrimental to your mental, physical and emotional health.

Our bodies are designed to function in a certain way. There is one use for the reproductive organs found in nature. Theologically we take God’s intent for the way we are to use the gift of our physical nature as well. We can act in ways against our physical nature and it has consequences. But for some the perceived rewards are more important than the long term effect. Thus we also consider excessive eating and drinking as abnormal behavior. I think the term ‘disordered’ has a certain perjorative tone and thus it is rejected by those who wish to claim abnormal behavior is normal. But it doesn’t change reality. A man’s body and a woman’s body are complimentary and designed to join together for procreation and bonding in the marital relationship. Two men and two women can use their bodies in a way nature didn’t intend. That doesn’t make it normal.

Well, normal just refers to something that is commonly practised. So something being normal doesn’t affect whether it’s immoral or moral. Obviously, you believe in a God so that confuses matters, but I don’t believe the body was designed. I don’t believe there is anyone to hurt or offend by, say, having gay sex, so I don’t see a problem with it. And nature quite clearly didn’t intend anything, which is evident by the fact that homosexuality is found in nature, so by your logic that must mean nature itself is disordered. I also believe that marriage is an entirely unnatural, man-made practise, so I don’t really agree that it is the proper and ordered way. It is simply an effective way for relationships to be legally recognised that humans have come up with.

I also don’t believe that homosexuality itself causes any particular harm to your physical or psychological well being. I know lots of homosexuals who are happy and psychologically healthy. Anal sex can be pretty risky, though. I also don’t really care what theology has to say about homosexuality. I don’t believe in the supernatural.

 

[LisaA]

Well, normal just refers to something that is commonly practised. So something being normal doesn’t affect whether it’s immoral or moral. Obviously, you believe in a God so that confuses matters, but I don’t believe the body was designed. I don’t believe there is anyone to hurt or offend by, say, having gay sex, so I don’t see a problem with it. And nature quite clearly didn’t intend anything, which is evident by the fact that homosexuality is found in nature, so by your logic that must mean nature itself is disordered. I also believe that marriage is an entirely unnatural, man-made practise, so I don’t really agree that it is the proper and ordered way. It is simply an effective way for relationships to be legally recognised that humans have come up with.

I also don’t believe that homosexuality itself causes any particular harm to your physical or psychological well being. I know lots of homosexuals who are happy and psychologically healthy. Anal sex can be pretty risky, though. I also don’t really care what theology has to say about homosexuality. I don’t believe in the supernatural.

Again you continue to express opinions only. And again I believe you are simply trying to justify your own actions. There are myriads of statistics about the mental, physical and emotional issues of homosexuals. This has been discussed to death on other threads and since this thread is on contraception and abortion maybe we should get back to the subject.

Normal isn’t ‘common practice’ from a biological sense. When I speak of normal behavior in that sense, the emphasis is what maintains life and health and procreation.

Contraception (chemical) is quite unhealthy and has problems that linger long after the medications cease. Young women who are on hormones have emotional problems as well. Even more of an emotional and physical detriment results from abortion, particularly multiple abortion which are sadly all too common.

Liberals seem to want to be free to violate their nature both in their reproductive choices and in supporting homosexuality. I haven’t as yet heard any support for this position so maybe you have some ideas?

Is this all just a vestige of the 60s mantra…if it feels good do it?
Lisa

 

[Regular_Atheist]

Again you continue to express opinions only. And again I believe you are simply trying to justify your own actions. There are myriads of statistics about the mental, physical and emotional issues of homosexuals. This has been discussed to death on other threads and since this thread is on contraception and abortion maybe we should get back to the subject.

Normal isn’t ‘common practice’ from a biological sense. When I speak of normal behavior in that sense, the emphasis is what maintains life and health and procreation.

Contraception (chemical) is quite unhealthy and has problems that linger long after the medications cease. Young women who are on hormones have emotional problems as well. Even more of an emotional and physical detriment results from abortion, particularly multiple abortion which are sadly all too common.

Liberals seem to want to be free to violate their nature both in their reproductive choices and in supporting homosexuality. I haven’t as yet heard any support for this position so maybe you have some ideas?

Is this all just a vestige of the 60s mantra…if it feels good do it?

Well, no. You seem to be stating that it’s terribly evil and wrong to oppose that which is natural, or your opinion of what is considered natural. All I can ask is; why?

I myself don’t approve of abortion, because I do believe it’s killing a human being, even if it is one that’s slightly undeveloped. But I don’t see the harm in contraception, and since you mentioned it, homosexuality.

 

[LisaA]

Well, no. You seem to be stating that it’s terribly evil and wrong to oppose that which is natural, or your opinion of what is considered natural. All I can ask is; why?

I myself don’t approve of abortion, because I do believe it’s killing a human being, even if it is one that’s slightly undeveloped. But I don’t see the harm in contraception, and since you mentioned it, homosexuality.

I absolutely did not say it is “terribly evil” and wrong to oppose all that is natural. I said when we go against our nature there are consequences. Yes there are some unnatural activities that are evil but some of them are just sins or failings. It’s not natural to binge drink for example. I don’t think it’s evil but there are consequences to the drinker, his family and society. Get the difference?

I’m glad to hear you disapprove of abortion. THIS IS EVIL. I believe contraception and homosexuality are going against our nature and there are consequences to both. As I said earlier, much research regarding the physical, mental and emotional impact of both.

But for some the consequences are weighed as less than the excitement or pleasure gained. Again a sin perhaps but not to the same level of evil as murder of the unborn. I truly don’t understand the Left’s obsession with preventing or killing their offspring. Maybe you can enlighten me?

Lisa

 

[Regular_Atheist]

I absolutely did not say it is “terribly evil” and wrong to oppose all that is natural. I said when we go against our nature there are consequences. Yes there are some unnatural activities that are evil but some of them are just sins or failings. It’s not natural to binge drink for example. I don’t think it’s evil but there are consequences to the drinker, his family and society. Get the difference?

I think the consequences of homosexuality are often over exaggerated, as lots of right-wing Christians take information from groups such as the Family Research Institute, who are very untrustworthy, though I will admit STD rates are higher amongst male homosexuals (because of anal sex) and depression is often higher amongst homosexuals, though it has been proven that alienation and discrimination have terrible effects on these individuals. Suicide rates are also higher in Conservative areas. The effects of contraception seem rarer, and they also seem to depend on the type of contraception used. Condoms seem to be fine, for example, aside from allergies and what not.

I’m glad to hear you disapprove of abortion. THIS IS EVIL. I believe contraception and homosexuality are going against our nature and there are consequences to both. As I said earlier, much research regarding the physical, mental and emotional impact of both.

Yeah, but there’s lots to suggest that it’s not necessarily the practise of homosexuality itself that causes depression, though. I also don’t believe contraception can cause psychological issues, and some forms of contraception seem to be fine. I made sure to get all my research from health sites that would give a neutral view, rather than, say, RationalWiki or a Christian site.

But for some the consequences are weighed as less than the excitement or pleasure gained. Again a sin perhaps but not to the same level of evil as murder of the unborn. I truly don’t understand the Left’s obsession with preventing or killing their offspring. Maybe you can enlighten me?

Well, preventing offspring is generally done because the individuals involved don’t want children, and since no one is normally harmed in the process I fail to see how anyone could oppose this aside from due to religious reasons. Most people who agree with abortion either do so in cases of rape, or because they are misinformed and don’t believe a foetus can be considered living.

 

[tomarin]

Exactly. YOU see it as murder, being guided by your religious values; but not every religion sees it as such in all cases: for example, Judaism, Quakerism, perhaps Hinduism. YOU most likely see contraception as immoral in all cases; Judaism makes distinctions. We live in a pluralistic society in America, with many different religious beliefs concerning several hot-button social and political issues.

Some of us see it as murder not only because of our faith but also because it appears rational to do so. You are stopping a beating heart, after all, and the organism you are terminating, is biologically a human one with its own unique DNA. Is the reason you do not consider it murder that it is not a sentient being whose life is being terminated (as far as we can guess)?

 

[LisaA]

I think the consequences of homosexuality are often over exaggerated, as lots of right-wing Christians take information from groups such as the Family Research Institute, who are very untrustworthy, though I will admit STD rates are higher amongst male homosexuals (because of anal sex) and depression is often higher amongst homosexuals, though it has been proven that alienation and discrimination have terrible effects on these individuals. Suicide rates are also higher in Conservative areas. The effects of contraception seem rarer, and they also seem to depend on the type of contraception used. Condoms seem to be fine, for example, aside from allergies and what not.

Yeah, but there’s lots to suggest that it’s not necessarily the practise of homosexuality itself that causes depression, though. I also don’t believe contraception can cause psychological issues, and some forms of contraception seem to be fine. I made sure to get all my research from health sites that would give a neutral view, rather than, say, RationalWiki or a Christian site.

Well, preventing offspring is generally done because the individuals involved don’t want children, and since no one is normally harmed in the process I fail to see how anyone could oppose this aside from due to religious reasons. Most people who agree with abortion either do so in cases of rape, or because they are misinformed and don’t believe a foetus can be considered living.

Sorry never heard of the sites you referenced. I use science based sites for medical or biological issues and can distinguish between my beliefs as a Catholic and what is demonstrated by science and statistical analysis.

As I mentioned it’s ABC (artificial birth control) such as hormones that cause the majority of emotional and physical problems. You’re probably too young but there used to be a commercial that said “It’s not nice to fool Mother Nature.” Hormones have a HUGE impact on mental state, not just the reproductive hormones but such things as thyroid for example. Anyone who’s been near a teen, male or female, knows that it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to come up with this conclusion. That being said, for some reason many physicians casually prescribe birth control pills to quite young women. The effects on their development, mental health and future fertility are dramatic.

As a Catholic I believe that we are “playing God” by using these products so I don’t at this time although when I was younger, not a Catholic and suffering from a hormone related condition I did use a hormone medication that had the secondary effect of being birth control.

So I can understand the appeal, what I cannot understand is the Left’s obsession with untrammeled access to these products paid for by others who do not share this viewpoint.

I also have a long history of relationships with homosexuals, both friendships and as professionals. I understand their world and many of them do seem happy, although in the bad old days many died of AIDS which is now more of a chronic condition. At any rate the statistical incidence of substance abuse, mental illness, suicide etc is higher among them (mostly refers to males). I can’t conclude that being homosexual is associated with other problems or if it’s simply going against nature having consequences. I do empathize with homosexuals because it is not a life that many if any would choose. That being said, I am very opposed to revamping the definition of marriage to include any relationship determined by the would be spouses.

As to abortion, there is simply no rationale but unfortunately we live in an era where the pro-aborts have the bully pulpit. Planned Parenthood invades our schools, the Girl Scouts and youth centers. With so many raised with no faith tradition or moral code, an abortion has about as much immediate impact as removing a wart. It has become depersonalized and dehumanized by our culture.

Lisa

 

[Regular_Atheist]

Sorry never heard of the sites you referenced. I use science based sites for medical or biological issues and can distinguish between my beliefs as a Catholic and what is demonstrated by science and statistical analysis.

Well, yeah, like I said I use medical sites. So, the NHS and what not.

As I mentioned it’s ABC (artificial birth control) such as hormones that cause the majority of emotional and physical problems. You’re probably too young but there used to be a commercial that said “It’s not nice to fool Mother Nature.” Hormones have a HUGE impact on mental state, not just the reproductive hormones but such things as thyroid for example. Anyone who’s been near a teen, male or female, knows that it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to come up with this conclusion. That being said, for some reason many physicians casually prescribe birth control pills to quite young women. The effects on their development, mental health and future fertility are dramatic.

Sure. But that can be avoided, and as I said there is contraception that isn’t really that dangerous at all.

As a Catholic I believe that we are “playing God” by using these products so I don’t at this time although when I was younger, not a Catholic and suffering from a hormone related condition I did use a hormone medication that had the secondary effect of being birth control.

So I can understand the appeal, what I cannot understand is the Left’s obsession with untrammeled access to these products paid for by others who do not share this viewpoint.

Fair enough. I guess I can’t really argue with this. I suppose it’s fair to say that you shouldn’t pay for a service you aren’t going to use.

I also have a long history of relationships with homosexuals, both friendships and as professionals. I understand their world and many of them do seem happy, although in the bad old days many died of AIDS which is now more of a chronic condition. At any rate the statistical incidence of substance abuse, mental illness, suicide etc is higher among them (mostly refers to males). I can’t conclude that being homosexual is associated with other problems or if it’s simply going against nature having consequences. I do empathize with homosexuals because it is not a life that many if any would choose. That being said, I am very opposed to revamping the definition of marriage to include any relationship determined by the would be spouses.

Fair enough. I’d go onto the marriage issue, but not here and now and in this thread. We’re already off-topic enough.

As to abortion, there is simply no rationale but unfortunately we live in an era where the pro-aborts have the bully pulpit. Planned Parenthood invades our schools, the Girl Scouts and youth centers. With so many raised with no faith tradition or moral code, an abortion has about as much immediate impact as removing a wart. It has become depersonalized and dehumanized by our culture.

I’d disagree that those raised without faith tradition would have no moral code. I, for one, am such a person and I was taught what is right or wrong from day one, as was everyone who ever existed. I also have my own way of deciding what is right or wrong, one that I believe is more satisfying as it requires thought about the subject rather than blindly accepting what a supposed deity would say to be true. I’m an atheist, and I believe abortion is wrong. Besides, you live in the USA, right? The majority of people there are Christians, so you can’t really argue that “so many” are raised without faith tradition.

 

[interestedman]

Sorry never heard of the sites you referenced. I use science based sites for medical or biological issues and can distinguish between my beliefs as a Catholic and what is demonstrated by science and statistical analysis.

As I mentioned it’s ABC (artificial birth control) such as hormones that cause the majority of emotional and physical problems. You’re probably too young but there used to be a commercial that said “It’s not nice to fool Mother Nature.” Hormones have a HUGE impact on mental state, not just the reproductive hormones but such things as thyroid for example. Anyone who’s been near a teen, male or female, knows that it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to come up with this conclusion. That being said, for some reason many physicians casually prescribe birth control pills to quite young women. The effects on their development, mental health and future fertility are dramatic.

As a Catholic I believe that we are “playing God” by using these products so I don’t at this time although when I was younger, not a Catholic and suffering from a hormone related condition I did use a hormone medication that had the secondary effect of being birth control.

Taking birth control is no more playing God than taking anti depressants.

 

[Regular_Atheist]

Taking birth control is no more playing God than taking anti depressants.

True, that. I suppose taking anti-depressants is also opposing what is natural. It’s preventing you from feeling the emotions that, presumably, God intended you to feel.

 

[LisaA]

Taking birth control is no more playing God than taking anti depressants.

That so belittles the power to create a human being, comparing it to taking a Xanax. I used the reference from Catholic philosophy. You cannot argue against our teaching with non-Catholic opinions.

Again you are a master of opinions and missing facts or the Catholic perspective from which I spoke.

Lisa