T
theCardinalbird
Guest
If God is the only God, why do miracles appear in other faiths attributed to other gods/goddesses?
- Status
K
Kei
Guest
First we must understand that demons exist.
Now, the next point is that demons are fallen angels and can do things that are on the realm of præternatural phenomena.
God alone can do supernatural miracles (he can of course do præternatural or natural “miracles” as well.
Now, the next thing is that we don’t tell God what to do.
Now, the next point is that demons are fallen angels and can do things that are on the realm of præternatural phenomena.
God alone can do supernatural miracles (he can of course do præternatural or natural “miracles” as well.
Now, the next thing is that we don’t tell God what to do.
O
Organist78
Guest
If you read the Old Testament, you will notice that when Moses is dealing with Pharaoh, Pharaoh’s magicians were able to duplicate some of the miracles God did through Moses. This is part of the reason Pharaoh’s heart was hardened.
Satan, is the prince of darkness and the master of lies. Satan can replicate many things of God. This is analogous to how even in the human world some things can be faked. For example, companies fake Rolex watches, Montblanc Pens, Diamonds, Money, other jewelry, etc. Some fakes are better than others. Some are so bad that a non-professional can tell right away it is a fake. Some are so good, even the professionals have to do complicated testing to ensure authenticity.
Satan and his fallen angels are the same with the miracles of God. They can replicate many of God’s miracles. They do this in order to deceive. Some of the fakes are better than others. The point is that they can replicate some of God’s power. They cannot, however, replicate all of God’s power. The Cross is the one thing Satan cannot replicate and therefore the Cross is what ultimately authenticates Christianity and the Church.
Churches that do not preach the cross and embody the cross in their Faith, life and worship are not genuine Christian churches. The Catholic Church preaches the fullness of the Cross because she not only preaches it, but embodies it in her Sacraments, most particularly the Mass.
Satan, is the prince of darkness and the master of lies. Satan can replicate many things of God. This is analogous to how even in the human world some things can be faked. For example, companies fake Rolex watches, Montblanc Pens, Diamonds, Money, other jewelry, etc. Some fakes are better than others. Some are so bad that a non-professional can tell right away it is a fake. Some are so good, even the professionals have to do complicated testing to ensure authenticity.
Satan and his fallen angels are the same with the miracles of God. They can replicate many of God’s miracles. They do this in order to deceive. Some of the fakes are better than others. The point is that they can replicate some of God’s power. They cannot, however, replicate all of God’s power. The Cross is the one thing Satan cannot replicate and therefore the Cross is what ultimately authenticates Christianity and the Church.
Churches that do not preach the cross and embody the cross in their Faith, life and worship are not genuine Christian churches. The Catholic Church preaches the fullness of the Cross because she not only preaches it, but embodies it in her Sacraments, most particularly the Mass.
K
Kts1816
Guest
I never heard miracles like Marian apparitions in Orthodoxy or Protestant churches for example.
O
OriginalGabrielof12
Guest
John 4:46Once more he visited Cana in Galilee, where he had turned the water into wine. And there was a certain royal official whose son lay sick at Capernaum. 47When this man heard that Jesus had arrived in Galilee from Judea, he went to him and begged him to come and heal his son, who was close to death.
48 “Unless you people see signs and wonders,” Jesus told him, “you will never believe.”
1 Corinthians 14;21 In the Law it is written:
“With other tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me,
says the Lord.”
22 Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers.
Matthew 24:23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
26“So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
A miracle is a grace from heaven that begs the unbeliever, to look to God alone who Will’s that all men should be saved.
Peace be with you
48 “Unless you people see signs and wonders,” Jesus told him, “you will never believe.”
1 Corinthians 14;21 In the Law it is written:
“With other tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me,
says the Lord.”
22 Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers.
Matthew 24:23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
26“So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
A miracle is a grace from heaven that begs the unbeliever, to look to God alone who Will’s that all men should be saved.
Peace be with you
B
BlackFriar
Guest
Simple objective reasoning also suggests:
Though they are useful in advertising a religion is worth looking at.
- God sees a reason to advertise other religions - possibly because Catholics don’t have a monopoly on His friendship and elements of true religion are found everywhere - not only in specific institutions but also particular individuals in those institutions who may be exceptional despite the weaknesses of the institution they are in.
- OR Miracles are a preternatural gift given at birth.
Some have it some don’t, it has nothing directly to do with religion - though spiritual practises may well train such persons to access their hidden gift. If they are Catholics and use their gifts for good we turn them into saints. If they use them for ill we say they are possessed. If they are inbetween we put them on the backburner and say not enough evidence to make a judgement - or contain them in a monastery and eventually turn them into saints so long as they don’t step too far out of line.
If they are not Catholics we tend to downplay the evidence and minimise/deny the supernatural character. If that doesn’t work we say they are witches or magicians or of the devil if they are too bizarre.
Though they are useful in advertising a religion is worth looking at.
Last edited:
G
guanophore
Guest
How would you expect to hear about them? Are you reading any Orthodox sources?
- The visitation of the Mother of God with St John the Evangelist and Apostle Peter to St Sergius of Radonezh and his disciple Micah.
- The appearance of the Mother of God to St Dimitri Donskoy. The event is recorded in the icon of the Mother of God Bogolyubskaya.
- The appearance of the Mother of God at the church at Blachernae - the origin of the feast of the Holy Protection of the Mother of God.
- The appearance of Christ and the Virgin to the fathers of the First Ecumenical Council, which led to the restoration of St Nicholas of Myra as bishop, after he had been ejected from the council and stripped of his episcopal rank for assaulting Arius.
- The Apparition of The Theotokos, St John and others to St. Seraphim of Sarov
The appearance of the Archangel Michael at Colossae (depicted in the icon currently adorning my avatar).
There are numerous instances of appearance by saints.
K
Kts1816
Guest
Oh,Seraphim Sarov!!!
K
Kts1816
Guest
Thanks 
O
OriginalGabrielof12
Guest
I have to object to your false characterization of Catholic’s in particular the Catholic Church teaching on miracles.
I will just summarize my objection by stating that for a Catholic member to be canonized as a Saint and for the CC to authenticate a miracle, would have to go through such a scrutiny that far and exceeds the investigation of any secular legal court or Tribunal on earth.
That said, I don’t think most miracles outside the Catholic Church could withstand a Catholic Church’s scrutiny in order to authenticate the miracle as worthy of faith. This statement does not take away from the faith of those who may or may have experienced a personal or public miracle, that has not been authenticated by the CC. These unauthenticated miracles by the CC are suspended in faith between the believer and God.
Peace be with you
Last edited:
B
BlackFriar
Guest
How would you propose providing evidence that my hypothesis is false?
There is now no longer need to see miracles in other religions as problematic as we now recognise that God operates outside of the Catholic Church and elements of truth exist in them to varying degrees.
Like apparitions, the Church only makes prudential judgements re the alleged divine agency in any given miracle so far as I am aware.
The only thing certain is that such saints are in heaven, their writings are worth reading and their example is worthy of imitation and public cult.
Last edited:
O
OriginalGabrielof12
Guest
To be clear, I did not make the claim that your commentary was false. I simply objected to your characterization or generalization of a Catholic’s view toward miracles outside of the Catholic faith.
We can agree that miracles proclaimed to discredit the Catholic faith by magicians, witches, false prophets etc… is a serious matter for all Catholic’s.
Those who are outside of the body of Christ (Catholic Church) by no fault of their own or by ignorance, who may experience a miracle and draws closer to God. It is to these little one’s, (Christ has revealed to the Church; “Do not hinder these little one’s from me”) the Catholic Church will not prevent these little ones from God.
The Catholic Church does not pretend to limit God’s Love, Will and Wisdom, when she teaches God’s ways are not our ways. We know that God cannot, does not lie. What God builds upon His Rock the Catholic Church.
If a miracle is witnessed in another religion and produces Love of neighbor and love of enemy, that fulfills the law and prophets, surely we can agree with the Catholic Church, God will’s that all men come to the Truth and be saved.
Peace be with you
Last edited:
B
BlackFriar
Guest
Its readily apparent in many comments on CAF over the last 10 years for a start…
Not under my hypothesis, it solves the difficulty without needing to burn them physically or psychologically.
O
OriginalGabrielof12
Guest
Speaking as a Catholic. I will stay closer to the heart of the Catholic Church on the narrow path of her God given divine revelations and teachings, rather than follow the road (your majority) that can lead to death and destruction.
Sorry, but you lost me, after you begin burning witches at the stake.
Peace be with you
B
BlackFriar
Guest
I find it interesting that you cannot recognise that in the past large numbers of Catholics, including officials, considered any demonstration of the supernatural outside of Catholic faith to not only be suspect but likely demonic. Yet within the Catholic faith, especially if demonstrated by priests, religious or utterly obedient laity, it is allowed to develop into cultus.
Many catholics (and fundamentalist Protestants) still exhibit the same attitudes today.
I am surprised you can neither accept nor understand my simple and rather tame observations.
Many catholics (and fundamentalist Protestants) still exhibit the same attitudes today.
I am surprised you can neither accept nor understand my simple and rather tame observations.
Last edited:
O
OriginalGabrielof12
Guest
I would consider this a matter of one’s own personal opinion. This view you introduce is never a teaching of the Church nor is it held by the majority of practicing Catholic’s.
Albeit this not the “norm”. Although there are priest and laity ministries permitted by their bishop’s to conduct healing services. But! these are strictly supervised and overseen by the local bishop so that the practice follows the Church’s guidance.
It’s not that I don’t accept your view. I don’t practice them within the boundaries of my Catholic faith.
Please read the following teaching and example provided for you, which applies to your understanding and opinions on the subject of miracles conducted by those outside the Catholic Church Jesus Christ founded. P.S the following is the teaching which my post and the teaching of the Catholic Church supports.
Mark 9:38-41
Whoever Is Not Against Us Is for Us
38 “Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”
39 “Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40 for whoever is not against us is for us. 41 Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward.
Peace be with you
B
BlackFriar
Guest
Of course its my personal view???
I have also stated it is not the view of most Catholics.
The topic here is “why do miracles…”
It isn’t asking for a particular line.
However to the best of my knowledge my view is acceptably Catholic as the Church doesn’t actually have a dogmatic teaching on this topic as far as I am aware.
What the Church has is an inherited ancient view of the world that it assumes - along with the scientific “belief” that the planets move by the agency of spirits, that God’s heaven is beyond the farthrest sphere of the planets, that hell was deep within the earth and that the sun orbited the earth.
Some of these assumptions have been seen as dogmatics teachings, even to the point of condemning Galileo. Pope JPII has clarified that it was not a dogmatic teaching though at the time most laity and officials regarded the denial of geocentrism logically a denial of the inerrancy of Scripture.
Thank God the Church respects science and has slowly discarded or spiritualised the above as science has corrected itself over time.
Its perhaps time we did the same for some of our attitudes towards the “supernatural”.
Especially since Vatican II has demonstrated that salvation can be found outside the Church and miracles outside of the Church really says nothing about the status of the Catholic Church before God.
Those who still hold to the ancient religious and cosmological assumptions likely find my view unusual . As they did the views of Galileo and even Vatican II on other religions I suppose.
I really do not understand what it is you are asking of me re the remainder of your contribution sorry. What do you say of person’s who do miracles but don’t mention Jesus’s name?
Last edited:
O
OriginalGabrielof12
Guest
In regards to the OP, I have answered the OP supported by sacred scripture. Interesting your view or opinion of Catholic’s is never supported by sacred scripture nor sacred Tradition.
I find your choice of words such as “dogmatic” moves away from a reasonable dialogue. Logic and reasonable faith requires no “dogmatic” statement from the Church. Thus to over reach for a “dogmatic” statement which does not exist to either support your view nor my view is unreasonable.
First of all speaking to the time period’s when Church members, not the Church, believed the world was flat. I have no idea what Galileo has to do with “miracles”. Your response here takes on the flavor of one Vetting by reaching to the stars. In response, all I can add is that, Let us not forget how instrumental and role the Catholic Church Saints and Martyrs played through your history in civilizing, educating and healing the human family.
Thank God for the Catholic Church, that the human family matured in learning and understanding, gaining wisdom to learn the difference between those things which belong to the Caesars and the world and those things which belong to God.
How do you mean the Church “corrected itself”?? You mean man or members of the Church. Here’s a clue for you. The Catholic Church is the body of Christ. How can TRUTH “corrected itself”, when TRUTH is a person not an it and secondly TRUTH is not Truth if Truth has to correct herself. I hope this clarifies the difference of our understanding of what is Truth and what is opinion.
Vatican II has not changed a thing, when the church has not moved from her position that no one is saved except through the Catholic Church= body of Christ.
Miracles believed in, that oppose Jesus and His Body the Church are easily scrutinized and or proven false through scientific means.
I know of no miracles in history which oppose Jesus Christ and His Body the Church. Can you give this board a recorded historical Miracle to be in opposition to Jesus and His body the CC?
Peace be with you
Last edited:
B
BlackFriar
Guest
OG its a free world.
You are welcome to your olde worlde position (which no longer works very well since the Galileo, the Enlightenment and Vatican II).
Just as I am entitled to mine.
Both positions are acceptably Catholic as far as I know.
It is clear from above you seem to grasp little of what I am saying.
However be assured it doesn’t contradict tradition any more than heliocentrism does as far as I am aware. I am sorry if that threatens you, you do not need to read this thread if that is the case.
If you have a post Vatican II Magisterial text that explicitly denies my view I would be interested to see it
Otherwise God bless.
Last edited:
O
OriginalGabrielof12
Guest
I was not objecting to your opinion, Let us be clear. Ironically you seem to be not understanding my position and my response’s are in keeping with the OP.
Respectfully, your view is not a Church Tradition. It stems from a “geocentric” limited knowledge of it’s day, that only reveals an individual’s opinion. Today you may find it interesting that both “geocentric and heliocentric” calculations benefit the scientific community today, but that is off topic.
In retrospect to our discussion, I do not deny that Catholic members held your view (“geocentric”) of miracles outside the Catholic Church, I disagreed that the Church as a whole ever held or hold your view. In summary, the Catholic Church who grows in knowledge of divine revelation given to her. Takes the “geocentric” and the “heliocentric” views to gain a balance of understanding today.
Here is a Post Vatican II text which confirms and updates my view and practice of my Catholic faith.
NOSTRA AETATE
Proclaimed by his holiness Pope Paul VI Oct. 28, 1965 (Second Vatican Council)
Paragraph 1…"Men expect from the various religions answers to the unsolved riddles of the human condition. 2. From ancient times down to the present, there is found among various peoples a certain perception of that hidden power which hovers over the course of things and over the events of human history…This perception and recognition penetrates their lives with a profound religious sense…The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions…thou differing in many aspects…nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men..The Church, therefore, exhorts her sons, that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions carried out with prudence, and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life…5 No foundation therefore remains for any theory or practice that leads to discrimination between man and man or people and people, so far as their human dignity and the rights flowing from it are concerned. The Church reproves, as foreign to the mind of Christ, any discrimination against men or harassment of them because of their race, color, condition of life, or religion..following the footsteps of the holy apostles Peter and Paul…(1Peter 2:12)"
Peace be with you
Last edited:
- Status