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TechieGuy
Guest
Maybe those are just stories that didn’t really happen.
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BlackFriar
Guest
Sorry, I don’t see any relevance of these block quotes to my view.
Perhaps you could add commentary.
Perhaps you could add commentary.
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OriginalGabrielof12
Guest
That’s my point. the Vatican II document never supports your view. Vatican II only confirmed what the Church always held since Peter and Paul.
Your view claimed this;
I don’t deny that in past times due to ignorance and intolerance on all sides, Catholic members (not the Catholic faith holds your view) including those holding a secular Royal power position, held non-Catholic religions in contempt, but were intolerant for Catholic members to engage in such non-catholic religious activity.
We have to distinguish your view of generalizing Catholic’s holding your view towards non-Catholic religions of the supernatural.
When Catholic secular powers and or the Catholic populace engaged in persecuting (verbally, physically) “Catholic” members accused of or found engaging in non-catholic religious activity. These particularly are historical facts.
Although, your historical view of Catholic members persecuting (verbally, physically) non-Catholic( members) religious practice in the supernatural, does not have historical facts to support it, when it was never the Church’s position to act in such away towards non-catholic religion’s. As Vatican II reminded the Church of how we Catholic’s are to treat non-Catholic religions, since Peter and Paul or apostolic times.
Peace be with you
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BlackFriar
Guest
You truly believe that silence always means opposition?
Excuse me if I, and others, find such a simplistic philosophy of life irrational.
There is nothing further to argue on this point if you don’t see the flaw in your thinking.
It is simply matter of first principles.
Somehow you’ve managed to overlook the Spanish Inquisition then and the heresy of witchcraft.
But those extreme examples aside I was more concerned to observe the defensive Catholic “ideology” that God doesn’t work miracles outside the Catholic Church.
The following thread is a great example such ideology is alive and well today:
http://www.catholicforum.com/forums/showthread.php?35305-Non-Catholic-Miracles
If you believe I am mistaken then please yourself name a few miracles/apparitions of old you accept as likely true in Protestant or non Christian religions?
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
Not to get off topic, but I really like him, for obvious reasons
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OriginalGabrielof12
Guest
The Spanish Inquisition does not apply to our discussion. Heresy and the Spanish Inquisition addressed Catholic members only.
- It was the secular Catholic powers who administered any punishment towards Catholic’s, after the Church excommunicated the Catholic and or the Catholic refused to repent.
- The Spanish Inquisition did not address non-catholic religions and practices nor it’s non-catholic members.
- The Spanish Inquisition addressed Catholic’s found guilty of heresy and breaking secular laws that had religious bias on their books. In short, these secular Catholic’s in power did not persecute non-catholic religions or non-catholic members.
The apostolic teaching is; “There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church”, which can be defended.
I cannot provide you with any “authenticated” proof of miracles outside of the Christian faith except in Judaism.
All I can add in conclusion to our discussion is: God’s ways are not our ways, and the Catholic Church never places God in a box of limited action, God can save anyone whom God Will’s.
Peace be with you
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BlackFriar
Guest
Please open your eyes to the real history.
The real history is that in the 1400s in Spain its non-Catholics (ie non Christian) inhabitants had to pretend to be Christian to avoid being driven out or killed by its “Catholic” nobility and clergy.
One of the purposes of the Inquisition was to find these crypto Christians and get rid of them.
“The Inquisition was extremely active between 1480 and 1530. Different sources give different estimates of the number of trials and executions in this period; Henry Kamen estimates about 2,000 executed, based on the documentation of the autos-da-fé, the great majority being conversos of Jewish origin. He offers striking statistics: 91.6% of those judged in Valencia between 1484 and 1530 and 99.3% of those judged in Barcelona between 1484 and 1505 were of Jewish origin.”
(Wikipedia)
You are not prepared to respond?
You have therefore proven my very point in the attitude of your own person.
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OriginalGabrielof12
Guest
Although your historical statistics are very debatable, and in such a debate, I can prove your history record to be tainted and bias. In addition, your comment only confirms and supports my position when you have “nobility and clergy” (never the Church) abusing their own subjects for self gain during the Spanish Inquisition. Which the Church commissioned Holy Clergy to weed out false teachers and shepherds from her fold, The Church never gives any “nobility or clergy” to exercise secular punishments or capital punishment on anyone.
Again, the Church never suppressed non-catholic religious members because of their non-catholic belief’s as you stated here; “One of the purposes of the Inquisition was find these crypto Christians and get rid of them”.
Respectfully, I have not provided you my opinion or attitude on this subject, except that I practice my faith according to the apostolic Tradition and Magisterial teachings. I don’t follow the wide path (majority) that leads to destruction and death.
In conclusion, My position, not attitude, “to why do miracles appear in other religions?” It is never for Catholic members of the Church to be intolerant, prejudice, abuse, bash other non-catholic religions, nor has such a negative practice been taught from the Catholic Church. This apostolic practice of tolerance never displays the Catholic faith from a weak position, but a position of strength, when she possesses TRUTH within her midst.
The list of non-christian miracles are too numerous to mention recorded by Hebrews in the Old Testament and some witnessed by Jews in the 20th century. This proves I have already proven a prepared response for you.
Peace be with you
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BlackFriar
Guest
I believe the OP was not talking about Judaism as “other religions” - obviously all Catholics accept miracles in the OT.
So back to my question:
If there are so many it should be easy for you to pick just one in say Buddhism or Islam?
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OriginalGabrielof12
Guest
You may be correct in your assumption here. As I read the OP about “other religions” included non-Catholic Christians and non-Catholic religions, which would include Judaism.
It’s not fair to the OP for you to move the goal post, when the OP did not specifically name which “other religions” apply. At this juncture Judaism would qualify in the category of “other religions”.
A true miracle is in the eye of the beholder. For example; Many non-Catholic Christians who have altar calls, consider these repentative sinners accepting Jesus as their personal Savior without being baptized qualifies as a miracle. Weekly in these non-Catholic evangelical circles, a miracle is proclaimed and witnessed for example Benny Hin services begins these tele-evangelist. I don’t bash these little one’s who experience such miracles, nor do I qualify them as “true” or authenticated by the Church.
Naming miracles in other religions does not answer the OP. The OP beg’s the question. “Why do miracles appear in other religions?”
In recent history, Israel was surrounded and attacked from all sides by Muslims and were out numbered in the battle field. A small Israeli force came under a massive Muslim army attack, when the Muslims were about to destroy the small Israeli force, the Muslims dropped their arms and ran off, the Israeli soldiers made chase and caught a Muslim on the run, and asked him, why did they run from the battle field. It is recorded that the Muslim stated it was not the small Israeli force the Muslims ran from. The Muslims ran because they saw these huge angelic beings standing before them, so they dropped their arms and ran away. The Jewish soldiers saw this and proclaimed a miracle.
Has this miracle been authenticated by the Catholic Church? Probably not? Did this miracle happen in recent history? Yes, when you have both Muslim’s and Jews claiming to have witnessed this event, when both Muslim’s and Jews qualify as “other religions”.
Peace be with you
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BlackFriar
Guest
You are not prepared to respond?
You have therefore proven my very point in the attitude of your own person.
IE:
You have therefore proven my very point in the attitude of your own person.
IE:
Clearly neither the OP nor myself are referring to Judaism which God still remains faithful to and which all Catholics agree manifested many miracles and wonders.
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OriginalGabrielof12
Guest
You are welcome to hold the opinion “that God doesn’t work miracles outside the Catholic Church”. Holding such a position does not give you liberty to bash, critique, hold in contempt non-catholic religions, who believe in miracles, but are not authenticated by the CC.
I hold that God does allow miracles to happen in “other religions” authenticated or not. Because the miracle is in the eye of the beholder between the believer (non-catholic) and God. When God Will’s all men to come to the Truth and be saved.
Remember, miracles according to the bible, is for unbelievers. Miracles are not necessarily for believers.
I will yield to you here and give you the final post from our exchange.
Peace be with you
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BlackFriar
Guest
The problem is I now don’t believe you - because you are repeatedly unable to nominate a single possible one outside of Catholicism and Judaism which clearly don’t count
.That does suggest you are still captured by the very ideology I observe many Catholics subconsciously operate from. It is palpably too painful for you to bring yourself to even suggest a single one!
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Augustine3
Guest
I have Protestant friends who claim miracles have occurred in their churches and they are genuine guys I trust.
There is of course the famous apparition of our lady in Egypt above the Orthodox Church
I can only explain this by the text below:
Mark 9:38-41 New International Version (NIV)
38 “Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”
39 “Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40 for whoever is not against us is for us. 41 Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward.
There is of course the famous apparition of our lady in Egypt above the Orthodox Church
I can only explain this by the text below:
Mark 9:38-41 New International Version (NIV)
38 “Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”
39 “Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40 for whoever is not against us is for us. 41 Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward.
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twf
Guest
There are definitely Marian apparitions in Orthodoxy…not to mention miraculous icons that produced inexplicable healing holy oil.
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theCardinalbird
Guest
I have no quarrel with miracles in the old covenant. My only concern are other religions
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PaladinSword
Guest
When you have seen real sorcery you will know why I decided to stay a Christian.
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theCardinalbird
Guest
Not that I don’t believe you. But to clarify. You have seen real sorcery
?
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PaladinSword
Guest
St Benedict pray for us.
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Joshua_M
Guest
They can, but the people who are asking for a miracle cannot be making offerings to evil gods aka the evil one.
If the one true God is the person they are indeed making offerings to, then you can get genuine miracles; however, God is careful not to lead people astray so such miracles would probably be fairly lowkey and explainable by natural causes.
Other Christian faiths can definitely have miracles. There is a Baptist healing group that has been very successful with that ministry. It makes sense because the Holy Spirit is making the gift of healing “trendy.”
To conclude, look at the intent. Are they worshiping satan or a good god?
If the one true God is the person they are indeed making offerings to, then you can get genuine miracles; however, God is careful not to lead people astray so such miracles would probably be fairly lowkey and explainable by natural causes.
Other Christian faiths can definitely have miracles. There is a Baptist healing group that has been very successful with that ministry. It makes sense because the Holy Spirit is making the gift of healing “trendy.”
To conclude, look at the intent. Are they worshiping satan or a good god?
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