WHY DO MormonISM EXIST AS A RELIGION

[Lapsed]

Difficult questions to answer, Mike. I know in myself, but it can be difficult to articulate. I think a new thread might be in order for this one. Give me a day or two to get it into words.

As for the temple ceremonies, you are right. I agreed not to reveal the deatils of them and I won’t. My word is, after all, my word. Google, however, has no such cumpunctions.

 

[majick275]

“…a promise to a liar is no promise at all…” With that in mind, I have no problem discussing whatever aspects of mormonism you wish in whatever level of detail you want. I agree a separate thread is in order. I’ll watch for it.

 

[Brian_C]

Never thought to be caught up in an LDS thread on CA, but this IS interesting. I have a lot of sympathy for LDS folks. They are hardworking pious individuals (for the most part) no matter what the “twisted” roots of their religion may be. Their missionary efforts are outstanding, no doubt. I, too, look forward to the thread.

 

[wademann]

This whole thread is hilarious!!! It’s the blind leading the blind.

 

[Lapsed]

wademann:

This whole thread is hilarious!!! It’s the blind leading the blind.

What part of what I have written are you going to refute for us?

 

[wademann]

No, you guys are right, I wear the same magical underwear everyday, I have six spouses, and our teachings are a big secret till you get married in the temple, then you get all the really good stuff, once all of us dupes, find out the real truth, we try to leave the church, but we don’t want the death squads sent out, so we just go along not making any waves and trying to get other dupes to join, that part of it is really kind of fun though, you should see some of these idiot’s, a few don’t even figure it out for like 5 years, cause it’s so obvious how fake it is. We just continue this farce until we die or change our Identity and escape. Congratulations on your escape, Lapse(obviously not your real name). Please help us idiot’s there are few million of us stuck in this cult.

 

[Lapsed]

wademann:

No, you guys are right, I wear the same magical underwear everyday, I have six spouses, and our teachings are a big secret till you get married in the temple, then you get all the really good stuff, once all of us dupes, find out the real truth, we try to leave the church, but we don’t want the death squads sent out, so we just go along not making any waves and trying to get other dupes to join, that part of it is really kind of fun though, you should see some of these idiot’s, a few don’t even figure it out for like 5 years, cause it’s so obvious how fake it is. We just continue this farce until we die or change our Identity and escape. Congratulations on your escape, Lapse(obviously not your real name). Please help us idiot’s there are few million of us stuck in this cult.

Wademann, if you had actually read this thread (particularly my posts) instead of jumping to your conclusions after a couple of posts, you would realize that part of what I’ve been doing here is refuting some of the popular misconceptions about Mormonism, including the magic underwear nonsense.

I’m even well enough acquainted with Mormon teachings to realize that an awful lot of what is in Bruce McKonkie’s Mormon Doctrine, like young earth creationism and the dinosaurs wiped out in the Flood, is simply McKonkie’s idea and not actually Mormon doctrine.

I personally find that the actual teachings of the LDS church are sufficient for demonstrating its falsity without having to resort to distortions. When was the last time your ward sang If You Could Hie to Kolob? Number 284 in 1985 edition of Hymns of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

I’ve been to the temple and had my family sealed. I was an Elders Quorum President. I spent a lot of hours researching Mormon teachings and doctrines before leaving the LDS church. I do know what I’m talking about. There are a great many things that converts are not taught on the basis of “milk before meet.” Ask someone to explain the “True Order of Prayer” to you and see what kind of response you get. Or “The Sure Sign of the Nail.”

Have you been to the temple? I have. You are in for an eye-opener if you haven’t been.

Temple garments are a reality. A Mormon who has taken out his or her endowments is required to wear them all the time except when bathing or when the garments might be exposed to non-LDS. Ever notice how all of the Mormon men seem to wear undershirts? Those are the upper half of their temple garments.

And no, Lapsed obviously isn’t my real name. Parading one’s real name around on the internet isn’t exactly wise in these days of cyber crime and identity theft. I have made no accusations of culthood or masked escapes.

I’m still waiting for you to specifcally refute anything I have held forth as teachings of the Mormon church. At the least go over what I offered as an LDS perspective on the Apostles’ Creed and point out to me where I have misrepresented the LDS position.

 

[wademann]

Lapsed:

Wademann, if you had actually read this thread (particularly my posts) instead of jumping to your conclusions after a couple of posts, you would realize that part of what I’ve been doing here is refuting some of the popular misconceptions about Mormonism, including the magic underwear nonsense.

I’m even well enough acquainted with Mormon teachings to realize that an awful lot of what is in Bruce McKonkie’s Mormon Doctrine, like young earth creationism and the dinosaurs wiped out in the Flood, is simply McKonkie’s idea and not actually Mormon doctrine.

I personally find that the actual teachings of the LDS church are sufficient for demonstrating its falsity without having to resort to distortions. When was the last time your ward sang If You Could Hie to Kolob? Number 284 in 1985 edition of Hymns of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

I’ve been to the temple and had my family sealed. I was an Elders Quorum President. I spent a lot of hours researching Mormon teachings and doctrines before leaving the LDS church. I do know what I’m talking about. There are a great many things that converts are not taught on the basis of “milk before meet.” Ask someone to explain the “True Order of Prayer” to you and see what kind of response you get. Or “The Sure Sign of the Nail.”

Have you been to the temple? I have. You are in for an eye-opener if you haven’t been.

Temple garments are a reality. A Mormon who has taken out his or her endowments is required to wear them all the time except when bathing or when the garments might be exposed to non-LDS. Ever notice how all of the Mormon men seem to wear undershirts? Those are the upper half of their temple garments.

And no, Lapsed obviously isn’t my real name. Parading one’s real name around on the internet isn’t exactly wise in these days of cyber crime and identity theft. I have made no accusations of culthood or masked escapes.

I’m still waiting for you to specifcally refute anything I have held forth as teachings of the Mormon church. At the least go over what I offered as an LDS perspective on the Apostles’ Creed and point out to me where I have misrepresented the LDS position.

I am a full blown, temple recomend carrying mormon. You are not an authority on the church just because you studied it for five years. Ask a catholic priest what happens if your 1st wife dies and you get married again and then your next wife leaves you, and you get married again without a church divorce or annullment or whatever you guys are supposed to get. This happened to a friend of mine and he was told by one priest that he was probably going to hell but if he stopped having relations with his current wife and live in celebacy the rest of his life he might have a chance to be saved. the next one told him that if he filled out these forms and paid $500 he could get an anullment and be OK. A few others had different answers much better. My point being, asking leaders or members of a church, questions about their faith you will probably get many different answers to the same question, whatever their knowlege or lack of knowledge proves nothing as to whether the religion is true or false. I have done a lot of studying too, that doesn’t make me an expert either, I have a testomony because of the spirit along with study. I have been blessed with personal miracles in my life that I can’t deny. I am not here to debate because I am not smart enough to keep up, and I can’t type very fast. Most of these debates go in circles anyway between a few people just knowledgeable enough to be dangerous, thats why they are hilarious to me . If you want a debate talk to amgid, casen, mormon fool, and a few others that would be worthy. I am curious as to why you left the church, did the church fail you, or was it someone in the church. I left the church for 20 years, because of my parents divorce then came back after being humbled by another tragedy in my life. I have seen lots of people leave for lots of reasons and then return stronger than ever. Remember it’s never too late. Read the Book of Mormon again. You must have felt something the first time and now you’ve talked yourself out of it, too bad. There are people smarter than both of us put together that have studied their whole life and they still believe. Good Luck!!!

 

[majick275]

By your reasoning amgid, et al aren’t good sources either as they are just members. What we CAN do though is refer to authoratative documents and establish what has been taight and practiced and the alleged reasons why given by the men who claimed divine revelation in directing these things. I think you are mistaken by discounting the personal experiences of former members as you do tend pick up a lot of information on what is taught and practiced in LDS churches over time. Here on this site you will find former LDS who are returned missionaries and former priesthood leaders. We have seen what is taught and practiced and we have made a careful study both in seeking to prove it true and later in discovering it’s falseness. The much misunderstood LDS “testimony” is often used to believe when it’s obviously not true. A hope that somehow all the evidence against it will somehow miraculously be in error. This is based on subjective feelings and considering the amount of control, salesmanship and outright manipulation that goes on in the LDS church this certainly can’t be trusted. It’s also not biblically correct. When one studies the truth it becomes obvious. The Temple is obsolete according to the book of Hebrews, so is having a prophet lead the church. The LDS Temple isn’t even an extension of the original much less a “restoration”. It’s a masonic copy designed to foster a “secret brotherhood” group dynamic. This is a cultish form of control. Satan is truly laughing at the ridiculous amount of time, effort and money that is diverted from such pious people to learning secret handshakes for an on behalf of dead people. Think of what could be accomplished for the living with that effort. (the living would seem to be a more time sensitive need) Why no finacial statements? these two elements combine to show a vast amount of worldly wealth that is not being used for God’s work. How many hospitals, orphanges and homeless shelters are operated by the LDS church? Schools? I just can’t see a whole lot of need for a prophet to guide us in how many earrings to wear or what color shirts can be worn to church. Making sure that temple workers don’t have facial hair seems critical to salvation.

annulments are free in our diocese. Marriage is a sacrament and not be trifled with.

I’ve read the BoM. It contradicts itself as well as LDS doctrine. I can’t believe that you wold say that since smart people studied it and still believ ethen it must be true. 2000 years of Catholic theologians can’t be wrong by that reasoning. How many people really had access to the LDS items that are hidden form the members in the archives? Church historians like michael quinn? How’d that work out? I believe they were excommunicated for revealing the truth.

Feeling something while reading a book would make Lord of the Rings the true Gospel and Tolkein a prophet. Should we pray to Manwe now? Of course not. We should worship God. The Father, SOn and Holy Spirit. We should pray to him and read his scriptures in the Bible. We should follow the teachings of the Church that he established, the one that never went away because Christ built it himself. The world was not abandoned for 1800 years so that an American cult could lead the way in singing praises to a man. The Catholic church has been here since Jesus started it. He has watched over it and never left us. He did what he said he would. That’s a whole lot better than Joseph Smith Jr. manipulating people into making him a thoecrat free to sleep around with all the wives and daughters he wanted while denying it in canonized scripture.

I was an EQP, Gospel Dcotrine teacher, seminary teacher and a memeber of a bishopric. I have read the JoD, ALL of the versions of BoM, D&C and PoGP. I have listened to Gordon B. Hinkley deceive people. I have prayed and fasted and studied with real sincerity (not a presuppesed tell me it’s true cuz I want it to be). I have seen the evidence, physical and spiritual. I know that the LDS church is false and serves the purposes of Satan as it deceives so many good people. I know that God is not a man. He is an ETERNALLY Divine being and the only God anywhere, ever. I know that we are his creations. I know the Catholic Church was established by Jesus himself.

Read the Nicene creed. It sums it up quite nicely. Repent and be baptized!

 

[Mike_D30]

wademann:

I am a full blown, temple recomend carrying mormon. You are not an authority on the church just because you studied it for five years. Ask a catholic priest what happens if your 1st wife dies and you get married again and then your next wife leaves you, and you get married again without a church divorce or annullment or whatever you guys are supposed to get. This happened to a friend of mine and he was told by one priest that he was probably going to hell but if he stopped having relations with his current wife and live in celebacy the rest of his life he might have a chance to be saved. the next one told him that if he filled out these forms and paid $500 he could get an anullment and be OK. A few others had different answers much better. My point being, asking leaders or members of a church, questions about their faith you will probably get many different answers to the same question, whatever their knowlege or lack of knowledge proves nothing as to whether the religion is true or false. I have done a lot of studying too, that doesn’t make me an expert either, I have a testomony because of the spirit along with study. I have been blessed with personal miracles in my life that I can’t deny. I am not here to debate because I am not smart enough to keep up, and I can’t type very fast. Most of these debates go in circles anyway between a few people just knowledgeable enough to be dangerous, thats why they are hilarious to me . If you want a debate talk to amgid, casen, mormon fool, and a few others that would be worthy. I am curious as to why you left the church, did the church fail you, or was it someone in the church. I left the church for 20 years, because of my parents divorce then came back after being humbled by another tragedy in my life. I have seen lots of people leave for lots of reasons and then return stronger than ever. Remember it’s never too late. Read the Book of Mormon again. You must have felt something the first time and now you’ve talked yourself out of it, too bad. There are people smarter than both of us put together that have studied their whole life and they still believe. Good Luck!!!

Are you just going to patronize and yell at ‘Lapsed’ (with vague insults toward Catholicism), or actually call into question anything he posted?

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

a_cermak:

I visited Nauvoo a time back. It’s a little town in IL just accross from the Iowa border. It’s where the martyrdom of Joseph Smith occurred and where the LDS and Community of Christ split. .

Now that is funny!!!

“Joseph reached round the door casing, and discharged his six shooter into the passage”
utlm.org/onlineresources/josephsmithsdeath.htm

“In 1844 he and his brother Hyrum are shot and killed in a shootout with a mob (during which he mortally wounded two non-Mormons) while they were being held in jail for charges based upon destroying The Nauvoo Expositor.”
mormonconspiracy.com/joseph-smith.html

 

[catsrus]

originally posted by wademann
Read the Book of Mormon again. You must have felt something the first time

And there is the crux of mormonism.
Feeling does not determine Truth.

 

[freesoulhope]

amen to that

 

[Jerusha]

Actually, there is also enough truth in the Book of Mormon to make it believable. There is some basis in Indian legends for it, it is just twisted for racist ends, distorted, and embroidered on. To the point of parody.

, but are just different enough to reveal the parody for those with eyes to see.

 

[Lapsed]

wademann:

I am a full blown, temple recomend carrying mormon.

Good, then you should know that I am not speaking falsehoods about church teachings.

wademann:

You are not an authority on the church just because you studied it for five years.

I have only claimed to be knowledgeable, not an authority. I have repeatedly asked you, a faithful member of the LDS church in good standing, to critique what I have posted in terms of actual teachings of the LDS church, and yet you just attack me and the Catholic Church instead of assressing this.

Again, I ask you to point out to me where you think I have erred.

wademann:

My point being, asking leaders or members of a church, questions about their faith you will probably get many different answers to the same question, whatever their knowlege or lack of knowledge proves nothing as to whether the religion is true or false.

I agree with you completely. Note my comments about Bruce McKonkie’s, a General Authority, book on Mormon beliefs. Even GAs don’t necessarily teach authoritative doctrines within the LDS church. It is a similar challenge that we have in the Catholic Church where numerous bishops have taught things that are not in line with Church teachings.

wademann:

I have done a lot of studying too, that doesn’t make me an expert either, I have a testomony because of the spirit along with study.

And I have a testimony that the LDS church is not Christ’s church as a result of the Spirit along with study. Our testimonies cancel each other out.

wademann:

I have been blessed with personal miracles in my life that I can’t deny.

I’m happy for you that God has touched your life. I had some pretty amazing experiences in the LDS church, especially when giving priesthood blessings. The Holy Spirit can work through any channels He chooses, Catholics, Mormons, Baptists, even non-Christians if He chooses.

wademann:

I am not here to debate because I am not smart enough to keep up, and I can’t type very fast. Most of these debates go in circles anyway between a few people just knowledgeable enough to be dangerous, thats why they are hilarious to me.

Then why did you step into this thread to ridicule us? I haven’t asked you to debate me, I have asked you to correct me. I dislike any faith being misrepresented and will speak up when I see it happen. There are threads around here where I have stepped in to correct misrepresentations of Wicca even. The sole reason I started posting to this thread was to try and correct the “magic underwear” stuff that was floating around.

wademann:

If you want a debate talk to amgid, casen, mormon fool, and a few others that would be worthy.

I’ve been expecting Mormonfool to pop in here, actually.

If I am going to debate beliefs, I want to debate the actual beliefs and not misrepresentations or fabrications of them. Hence my asking you to correct me if you see errors in what I have posted.

wademann:

I am curious as to why you left the church, did the church fail you, or was it someone in the church. I left the church for 20 years, because of my parents divorce then came back after being humbled by another tragedy in my life. I have seen lots of people leave for lots of reasons and then return stronger than ever. Remember it’s never too late. Read the Book of Mormon again. You must have felt something the first time and now you’ve talked yourself out of it, too bad.

I will be starting a “Why I am no longer Mormon” thread, so I will satisfy everyone’s curiosity on that front. I have actually had my name removed from the church rolls.

Yes, I have felt the burning in the bosom. I’m curious as to why Mormons think that if Satan can posess us, he can’t cause us to feel such things. He is after all the prince of this world. The danger of basing our faith on feelings.

I also agree that it is never too late, which is why I am so thankful the Catholic Church is here with her priests authorized to absolve my sins and welcome me back into Christ’s Church after 20 years of chasing false gods.

wademann:

There are people smarter than both of us put together that have studied their whole life and they still believe. Good Luck!!!

On this we both agree as well.

 

[Brian_C]

Yeah, but…there are so many Indian legends and so many are so vague. You can make them say anything. Sorta like Nostradamus’s quattrains.

Jerusha:

Actually, there is also enough truth in the Book of Mormon to make it believable. There is some basis in Indian legends for it, it is just twisted for racist ends, distorted, and embroidered on. To the point of parody.

 

[Jerusha]

And that is exactly what Joseph Smith and friends did. That vagueness is a characteristic of oral tradition. And one must be well-acquainted with the culture to derive menaning form them. Which advantage they did not have.

 

[donbjc]

I am a Catholic man married to a Mormon woman who has a temple recommend, and I can vouch for the fact that underwear is not believed by Mormons to be magic. It is a symbol of their promise to God to keep the commandments, and reminder to be chaste and keep their bodies clean and pure before God. My wife changes her garments every day and does not just wash the same pair over and over. She has 14 pairs at least.
I am also the Catholic man that Wademann was talking about who was told by different priests about divorce and annulment in the Catholic church, I actually paid $500.00 to have a tribunal tell me I did not need to have an annulment, they didn’t return the money either after telling me that. It was pointed out in this forum that there is an official statement from the Vatican concerning divorce and I read it. It is very clear and concise and I just don’t understand why the priests do not follow it. I decided that God has forgiven me and it really doesn’t matter what the priests think(since none of them agree with each other or the Vatican) They all have their individual beliefs about who is and who isn’t going to hell. As far as they are concerned I am going to hell, but I am good enough to donate money to the tune of thousands of dollars per year. I am still a staunch Catholic and never miss Mass, in spite of the fact I am partially paralyzed.
I believe the Book of Mormon could be true, and if not is certainly an interesting historical account of the people living on the American continent in ancient times.
The Mormon religion is not in the least bit weird and they are much better Christians than the Catholics that I know have been. They treat me with concern and love and have offered deep support for me in my illness the past 3 years. Catholics have told me that church is not for socializing or making friends. Too bad, because we all need friends and church would be a good place to make friends. Sorry to spout off, but it angers me when people criticize and make a mockery of things they do not know anything about…Don

 

[Mike_D30]

donbjc:

I am a Catholic man married to a Mormon woman who has a temple recommend, and I can vouch for the fact that underwear is not believed by Mormons to be magic.

From a 60 minutes interview with Mike Wallace:

*[Willard Marriott interview]

Mike Wallace: Do you wear the sacred undergarments?

Willard Marriott: Yes, I do. And I can tell you they do protect you from harm.

Mike Wallace: Really?

Willard Marriott: Uh-huh. I was in a very serious boat accident. Fire–boat was on fire, I was on fire. I was burned. My pants were burned right off of me. I was not burned above my knee. Where the garment was, I was not burned.

Mike Wallace: And you believe it was the sacred undergarments.

Willard Marriott: I do. Particularly on my legs, because my pants were gone, but my undergarments were not singed. *

For the full interview check here:

lds-mormon.com/60min.shtml

How could I not get the wrong impression? These sound like magic underpants to me.

If they aren’t I will accept that, but there is other data out there that seems to poitn otherwise, so you have to understand our confusion.

As far as your divorce, the Bible and Catechism of the Catholic Church are very clear on your situation. You may not like it, but it’s clear on the situation you’re in. If some priest really asked for $500 to make it all go away (which I doubt), I would love for him to point to anywhere in the Church teaching anyone can just get a marriage annulled for a small fee without incredibly extenuating circumstances, it’s wrong.

I went through a very difficult time with my wife, and was ready to gain a civil divorce. I’m a young man too, but if the divorce went through I would’ve stayed celibate, and looked towards receiving the Sacrament of Holy Order’s to keep from becoming an adulterer. Thank God the marriage was saved, and I don’t have to go through a divorce, it’s horrible I know. But I knew I couldn’t ask the Catholic Church to conform to my standards. The Church has its standards, and it’s up to us to conform to them.

 

[Mike_D30]

donbjc:

I am still a staunch Catholic and never miss Mass, in spite of the fact I am partially paralyzed.
I believe the Book of Mormon could be true, and if not is certainly an interesting historical account of the people living on the American continent in ancient times.
The Mormon religion is not in the least bit weird and they are much better Christians than the Catholics that I know have been. They treat me with concern and love and have offered deep support for me in my illness the past 3 years. Catholics have told me that church is not for socializing or making friends. Too bad, because we all need friends and church would be a good place to make friends.

Don who says the Church is not for making friends? Catholic’s don’t believe this or say this. You sound bitter because of the divorce situation and the Churches stance on it. I feel for you, but I suggest just stay the course and rely on God’s divine mercy.

I agree that because of size of parishes, that the Catholic Church can seem not as tight. But I think that is more our fault than the Churches or the Clergy. I read somewhere that there is only 450,000 priests for over 1 billion Catholic’s. That’s one priest per 2,300 parishoners. It’s up to us to pick up the slack and we’re failing.