Why do Mormons claim an "apostasy" happened?

[DelsonJacobs]

I do want to point out, it was not just some members of the past that have done this.
In an older version of their temple endowment, there was a line of Lucifer’s that was very anti-Catholic. I remember it vividly. It was in the pre-1990 version.

Lucifer made the comment about “I will take the treasure of the earth,
and with gold and silver I will buy up armies and navies, Popes and
priests, and reign with blood and horror on the earth!”

An anti-Catholic sentiment was part of LDS culture at one point.

Quite interesting additional information, thanks.

Of course I think you took my use of “some” out of context. I was indeed referring to situations like this. Since basically only those in leadership could construct such rituals and the language used, it cannot be said that everyone who was associated with the Mormons was responsible for what a minority developed.

Also, in English usage the word “some” does not necessarily mean that the entire membership cannot hold some responsibility. The primary definition of “some” means “an unspecified amount or number.” No Catholic has the ability to determine who among the LDS used such language with full consent or disagreed with its usage. Apparently some Mormons did disagree with it otherwise things would not have changed to the state that things are in today.

 

[Jerusha]

Those changes are well and good, Delson. However, given Mormon culture, and the anti-Catholicism in which it was founded, it will be generations before such attitudes permeate the LDS church. By then, it may well be dead and disassembled.

Despite their efforts to make their people homogeneous in beliefs and practice, they are diverse because they believe in evolution in belief and gnosis. Some are on the leading edge, and get excommunicated for that. Others are way behind, and they do nothing. Survival of the fittest does not apply.

And we have to remember that the leaders of the LDS church have no in-depth education in theology.

 

[lax16]

These questions would be for the LDS church to decide.

What I do understand (and any LDS member can correct me if I am wrong) is that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints recognizes that it is always growing in knowledge and understanding of the truth of the Gospel. It admits there have been mistakes, such as with how it handled issues of race in the past. But their understanding is that the mistakes have been with certain interpretations of the truths they cherish, not in the truths themselves.

There is no less emphasis on Joseph Smith or the fundamental teaching on Restoration, however. The Great Apostasy still occurred, and Catholics were involved. But Mormons do realize that their understanding is never all-encompassing, and that final judgment lies with our Heavenly Father and not how any particular Mormon doctrine is understood at any given time.

As I mentioned before, some Mormons find this new view unacceptable and have since left their church because of it and other such admissions. But for the most part Mormons believe that seeing things in more practical terms is far more realistic than mere credulity. Their own experience with the Catholic Church today is a favorable one, and you are unlikely ever to find a Mormon who would openly condemn the Church with the language some have done generations ago in the LDS church.

You have a very “Mormon apologist” way of posting.

Are you a convert from Mormonism?

 

[Horton]

You have a very “Mormon apologist” way of posting.

Are you a convert from Mormonism?

I was wondering the same thing

 

[kimg901]

These questions would be for the LDS church to decide.

What I do understand (and any LDS member can correct me if I am wrong) is that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints recognizes that it is always growing in knowledge and understanding of the truth of the Gospel. It admits there have been mistakes, such as with how it handled issues of race in the past. But their understanding is that the mistakes have been with certain interpretations of the truths they cherish, not in the truths themselves.

There is no less emphasis on Joseph Smith or the fundamental teaching on Restoration, however. The Great Apostasy still occurred, and Catholics were involved. But Mormons do realize that their understanding is never all-encompassing, and that final judgment lies with our Heavenly Father and not how any particular Mormon doctrine is understood at any given time.

As I mentioned before, some Mormons find this new view unacceptable and have since left their church because of it and other such admissions. But for the most part Mormons believe that seeing things in more practical terms is far more realistic than mere credulity. Their own experience with the Catholic Church today is a favorable one, and you are unlikely ever to find a Mormon who would openly condemn the Church with the language some have done generations ago in the LDS church.

Sounds like a cop-out to me. When doctrines don’t line up or things are said by leaders that don’t come true or are not socially accepted then it doesn’t matter? Its opinion or not interpreted correctly? Please.

 

[Marie5890]

Sounds like a cop-out to me. When doctrines don’t line up or things are said by leaders that don’t come true or are not socially accepted then it doesn’t matter? Its opinion or not interpreted correctly? Please.

One would think that if they truly believe that their church is guided by living prophets and living apostles, that all this confusion ans shifting of doctrines wouldn’t change.

 

[DelsonJacobs]

Sounds like a cop-out to me. When doctrines don’t line up or things are said by leaders that don’t come true or are not socially accepted then it doesn’t matter? Its opinion or not interpreted correctly? Please.

I have to agree with you on that.

While I am only reporting with what they have explained, my personal feeling is a bit of disappointment in them. True, the Catholic Church has made mistakes and revised a few of its ways and doctrines, but the Church has flat out said: “We were wrong and we need to make amends.” Recently the Catholic Church in Austria apologized for the part it played in the Holocaust, for example. Pope John Paul the Great made a public mia culpa at the Western Wall along the same lines too. We have made similar strides in repairing our relationship with the Lutheran Church, going beyond apology and into dialogue as we have with Judaism.

What the LDS is doing is not the same as it is not straight up claiming to be mistaken, nor is it saying it needs to make amends. But it is admitting something that the Jehovah’s Witnesses or SDA still don’t admit, namely that it needs to keep looking at itself with a more critical eye than it did before. A cop out in some terms for some of us, yes, but an interesting start to being more honest.

 

[OHCAC]

Here is the link to apostasy in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism: eom.byu.edu/index.php/Apostasy

I hope this helps.

Thanks Gazelam, this gives the official LDS viewpoint to the OP. But I’ll ask you what I’ve asked many LDS: why would I believe this? And, why do you believe this? And I’m going to take “I have a personal testimony” off the table + “you don’t have to believe it.” For the first, I have one too, and it tells me that the LDS “theory” of a total apostasy is hooey. The second just dodges the questions.

The LDS version of a total apostasy is simply conjecture and faith that JS was right. But there’s no historical data to confirm a total apostasy - it’s just conjecture.

So please tell me, why would I believe it? And, why do you believe it?

 

[kimg901]

I have to agree with you on that.

While I am only reporting with what they have explained, my personal feeling is a bit of disappointment in them. True, the Catholic Church has made mistakes and revised a few of its ways and doctrines, but the Church has flat out said: “We were wrong and we need to make amends.” Recently the Catholic Church in Austria apologized for the part it played in the Holocaust, for example. Pope John Paul the Great made a public mia culpa at the Western Wall along the same lines too. We have made similar strides in repairing our relationship with the Lutheran Church, going beyond apology and into dialogue as we have with Judaism.

What the LDS is doing is not the same as it is not straight up claiming to be mistaken, nor is it saying it needs to make amends. But it is admitting something that the Jehovah’s Witnesses or SDA still don’t admit, namely that it needs to keep looking at itself with a more critical eye than it did before. A cop out in some terms for some of us, yes, but an interesting start to being more honest.

I agree that the C.C has been part of many bad things. But all we can do is pray for lost souls.

 

[Horton]

Thanks Gazelam, this gives the official LDS viewpoint to the OP. But I’ll ask you what I’ve asked many LDS: why would I believe this? And, why do you believe this? And I’m going to take “I have a personal testimony” off the table + “you don’t have to believe it.” For the first, I have one too, and it tells me that the LDS “theory” of a total apostasy is hooey. The second just dodges the questions.

The LDS version of a total apostasy is simply conjecture and faith that JS was right. But there’s no historical data to confirm a total apostasy - it’s just conjecture.

So please tell me, why would I believe it? And, why do you believe it?

Don’t expect to get a logical answer to this question.

 

[Kosta]

I have been visited by both groups, I have been given a copy of the BOM and told to “pray about it” and they “know it is true”. I feel like Mormonism is kind of ridiculous, where do all of their claims come from? They have all of these claims but no logical proof to back it up.

How else do you get someone to believe something you wrote that can at best be described as Christian fanfiction and at worst as heresy? Telling people that you studied for a long time and came to the conclusion that Jewish Native Americans built a city of gold in New York State doesn’t have the same ring to it, but saying that God told you so does. I believe it was one of your Popes that said that you don’t convert someone based purely on reason; Joseph Smith was just playing on the innocence of poor, probably illiterate, gullible Protestants to ensnare them. Lord, have mercy.

 

[DelsonJacobs]

You have a very “Mormon apologist” way of posting.

Are you a convert from Mormonism?

Born and raised a Roman Catholic.

But I have done counseling for people who have left groups like the LDS and mostly the Jehovah’s Witnesses and have spent over a decade studying these groups. That is perhaps what you are noticing.

One side note: though I know many here consider perhaps what I’ve written to be an example of apologetics, in reality it isn’t. Apologetics employs a methodology that attempts to defend one’s convictions by showing that choosing them followed reason. I wasn’t defending my convictions here. I was merely explaining that the so-called Great Apostasy is a part of LDS doctrine due to that religion movement being a product of the Second Great Awakening.

An apology would have included a declaration of my convictions as a Catholic followed by my reasons for my faith, with this followed by demonstrating how my reasoning holds up under test.

 

[DelsonJacobs]

Those changes are well and good, Delson. However, given Mormon culture, and the anti-Catholicism in which it was founded, it will be generations before such attitudes permeate the LDS church. By then, it may well be dead and disassembled.

Despite their efforts to make their people homogeneous in beliefs and practice, they are diverse because they believe in evolution in belief and gnosis. Some are on the leading edge, and get excommunicated for that. Others are way behind, and they do nothing. Survival of the fittest does not apply.

And we have to remember that the leaders of the LDS church have no in-depth education in theology.

These statements sum up a lot of my personal feelings as well. Kudos.

 

[OHCAC]

Don’t expect to get a logical answer to this question.

I’ve asked it many times. I wonder if he’ll answer it at all. We’ll see. BTW, there is an answer, not necessarily logical, but there is an answer.

 

[drac16]

They have to make that claim because Joseph Smith taught that the priesthood was lost and that it was restored to his church [exclusively]. Without recieving the priesthood, there is no way to be saved, according to LDS thought.

 

[Marie5890]

They have to make that claim because Joseph Smith taught that the priesthood was lost and that it was restored to his church [exclusively]. Without recieving the priesthood, there is no way to be saved, according to LDS thought.

And this goes to their biggest “selling point”, the idea of eternal families. (as if other denominations believe that family relationships end at death otherwise?)

In order to be a “family forever”, one needs to be sealed to each other by their priesthood authority in their temples.

Take away the need for their priesthood to be restored takes away their need for temples, which means families are not “eternal families”

And “eternal families” is something the stress big time. Over and over.

 

[Marie5890]

And this goes to their biggest “selling point”, the idea of eternal families. (as if other denominations believe that family relationships end at death otherwise?)

In order to be a “family forever”, one needs to be sealed to each other by their priesthood authority in their temples.

Take away the need for their priesthood to be restored takes away their need for temples, which means families are not “eternal families”

And “eternal families” is something the stress big time. Over and over.

Mormons use the scripture in Matthew 18 where it discusses “whatever you shall bind on earth” etc, as evidence of “sealing”.
But like many things, they take Jesus out of His Jewish culture and don’t understand what He was talking about

jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/3307-binding-and-loosing

 

[PaulDupre1]

And this goes to their biggest “selling point”, the idea of eternal families. (as if other denominations believe that family relationships end at death otherwise?)

In order to be a “family forever”, one needs to be sealed to each other by their priesthood authority in their temples.

Take away the need for their priesthood to be restored takes away their need for temples, which means families are not “eternal families”

And “eternal families” is something the stress big time. Over and over.

Mormons are the only ones who have ever suggested that families will not be together in eternity.

So they set up the straw man and then base their proselytizing on knocking it down.

Hmmm…

 

[mamagoose]

Mormons are the only ones who have ever suggested that families will not be together in eternity.

So they set up the straw man and then base their proselytizing on knocking it down.

Hmmm…

Absolutely true. And this is their big selling point!

 

[dcana]

You want an eternal family? How about seeing God “as He is” and being in perfect communion with the All-Holy Trinity which will fill our entire beings with His beauty, goodness, and love in ways and to such an extent that no man can even begin to imagine and, united in God, having an intimacy with our family members and all the saints that is far beyond what is possible in this world. That is an eternal family. With God the Father and the whole of the saints completely united in Him, true “brothers and sisters”.

“I will be their God, and they will be My people.”

The Mormon vision of the afterlife is rather different, is it not?