Why do Mormons claim to be Christians?

[rIz0]

Are you as gratuitous in meaningfully studying the many many failings of your churches ability to defend itself from more than compelling arguments against its validity without reliance on personal testimony or uncompelling apologetics, as you are in engaging in conjecture meant to dissuade me from accepting the validity of mine?
The premise being that I ought to seriously look at the historicity of events which seemingly scandalize our Lord’s church while it also be the case that you do not. Seems intellectually dishonest. God bless.

 

[Spyridon]

You know whats funny?

The other Bishops stripped St. Nicholas of his vestments and threw him in jail.

Guess who came to the jail cell that night and gave him back his vestments and a gospel book? Jesus Himself.

Jesus understood St. Nicholas lost his temper because of the vial blasphemies coming from the Heresiarchs filthy mouth.

If someone was disrespecting your dad who was a WWII veteran and saying he was a phony and a fake, wouldn’t you wanna sock em?

 

[Lemuel]

That’s truly bizarre about obtaining forgiveness from Jesus and then from the Church.

Yeah and it’s really sad. It’s particularly hard on young men who are pressured to go on missions. A good number of them do it for their parents or just to not rock the boat. It’s tremendous pressure. In order to determine their “worthiness” their bishops grill them over any past sins, particularly ones that have to do with moral cleanliness. Most young men either have to lie or they have to “clean things up” before being judged worthy to go on a mission, but in the eyes of the church, some things can’t be cleaned up. For instance, if a young man has had multiple girls in his past in which he committed major sins, (everything from heavy petting to fornication), he will have the scarlet letter for life. Even though God forgives him, the Church doesn’t, and he will NEVER serve a mission. So, essentially, there’s no forgiveness. And it’s a life sentence because he’ll carry that around forever–that he never served a mission. And Mormon girls want returned missionaries for husbands, so that’s strike two. Not to mention all the emotional burden and guilt that it puts on a young man when other members look at him with scorn and wag their fingers and say, “I know what he did! Naughty little boy!” Strike three. It’s brutal.

 

[Spyridon]

Every time I read stories like this I get so sickened.

How could people mistake this cult for the true Church?

It has to be supernatural influence.

I cannot believe people can naturally be conned into such a blatant con. There must be supernatural factors influencing them.

 

[Lemuel]

How could people mistake this cult for the true Church?

Have you heard of BITE? It’s the model for cults:

B is behavior control
I is information control
T is thought control
E is emotional control

The Mormon church has it down pat.

 

[thedweh]

Really? check out what this cult did. I believe tis is one of the skeletons in the closet you were looking for.
https://www.catholic.com/qa/the-church-and-edgardo-mortara
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortara_case

 

[Horton]

Yeah and it’s really sad. It’s particularly hard on young men who are pressured to go on missions. A good number of them do it for their parents or just to not rock the boat. It’s tremendous pressure. In order to determine their “worthiness” their bishops grill them over any past sins, particularly ones that have to do with moral cleanliness. Most young men either have to lie or they have to “clean things up” before being judged worthy to go on a mission, but in the eyes of the church, some things can’t be cleaned up. For instance, if a young man has had multiple girls in his past in which he committed major sins, (everything from heavy petting to fornication), he will have the scarlet letter for life. Even though God forgives him, the Church doesn’t, and he will NEVER serve a mission. So, essentially, there’s no forgiveness. And it’s a life sentence because he’ll carry that around forever–that he never served a mission. And Mormon girls want returned missionaries for husbands, so that’s strike two. Not to mention all the emotional burden and guilt that it puts on a young man when other members look at him with scorn and wag their fingers and say, “I know what he did! Naughty little boy!” Strike three. It’s brutal

This alone is a perfect indicator that the LDS are not Christian. The concept that forgiveness comes from God is throughout the Bible, both old and new testaments. We only need absolution from God, not an organization.

 

[gazelam]

gazelam:

Please provide a generally accepted definition of the Trinity that allows for the Father to be the Son at the same time. Thanks in advance.

One title for Mary is Theotokos, meaning the Mother of God. This title is an affirmation of the believe in the Trinity. A title for Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God.

In 1830, Joseph Smith published the Book of Mormon which contained Trinitarian language.

And he said unto me, Behold, the virgin whom thou seest, is the mother of God, after the manner of the flesh. … And the angel said unto me, behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Eternal Father!- Book of Mormon page 25, now 1 Nephi 3

Clearly God and Christ are one.

In about 1835, Joseph Smith rejects his belief in the Trinity.

The 1837 Book of Mormon added the phrase “the son of” as in "the Mother of the son of God,” to the Book of Mormon.

I’m still hoping for that definition of the Trinity from you that allows for the Father to be the Son.

How do you arrive at “Mother of God” being somehow Trinitarian and “Mother of the Son of God” somehow not being Trinitarian? The RCC uses both to refer to Mary.

CCC 963 Since the Virgin Mary’s role in the mystery of Christ and the Spirit has been treated, it is fitting now to consider her place in the mystery of the Church. “The Virgin Mary . . . is acknowledged and honored as being truly the Mother of God and of the redeemer. . . . She is ‘clearly the mother of the members of Christ’ . . . since she has by her charity joined in bringing about the birth of believers in the Church, who are members of its head.”

Then there’s this from chapter 8 of Lumen gentium:

1. The Virgin Mary, who at the message of the angel received the Word of God in her heart and in her body and gave Life to the world, is acknowledged and honored as being truly the Mother of God and of the redeemer. Redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son and united to him by a close and indissoluble tie, she is endowed with the high office and dignity of the Mother of the Son of God, and therefore she is also the beloved daughter of the Father and the temple of the Holy Spirit. Because of this gift of sublime grace she far surpasses all creatures, both in heaven and on earth. But, being of the race of Adam, she is at the same time also united to all those who are to be saved; indeed, “she is clearly the mother of the members of Christ … since she has by her charity joined in bringing about the birth of believers in the Church, who are members of its head.”[3] Wherefore she is hailed as pre-eminent and as a wholly unique member of the Church, and as its type and outstanding model in faith and charity. The Catholic Church taught by the Holy Spirit, honors charity. The Catholic Church taught by the Holy Spirit, honors her with filial affection and devotion as a most beloved mother.

Surely the RCC’s use of “Mother of the Son of God” is not some sort of shift away from Trinitarianism. Why would Joseph Smith’s use of this phrase be a shift away from Trinitarianism?

 

[vz71]

How can one claim to follow Christ if they have no idea who he is or what he taught?

 

[Stephen168]

Why would Joseph Smith’s use of this phrase be a shift away from Trinitarianism?

Are you claiming the Mormon Church still believes in the Trinity as understood by the Catholic Church? Does the Mormon Church still call Mary the Theotokos?

 

[adamhovey1988]

I don’t know about Theotokos, but I have seen writings from Mormons that does use the term Trinity. Now, what they mean by this and how often they use it, are probably two different things.

 

[Lemuel]

Mormons don’t like it when you don’t consider them to be Christians, but they consider themselves to be the only true Christians and you to be the whore of Babylon.

 

[lilypadrees]

Mormons don’t like it when you don’t consider them to be Christians, but they consider themselves to be the only true Christians and you to be the whore of Babylon.

As I told one Mormon who had the audacity to say to me that Mormons were not only Christians but were the better Christians, “No one is the “better Christian.” Jesus makes that call. You need to learn humility before you even claim to be a Christian.”

This Mormon up to the moment he decided to pull that attitude on me, had put on the facade of being very nice, very unflappable no matter what anyone said about him or the Mormon church. You couldn’t have found a more respectful Mormon if you tried.

The moment he was confronted with the truth about himself, his true colors showed. The “nice nice” routine fell like a deck of cards and pure hate for Catholics, Protestants, atheists and anyone else who spoke against his church and its beliefs and teachings showed through. It was not just a change from day to night but like staring at the face of Satan. That is what I felt. Pure evil from this person. That was another indication to me that they aren’t Christians. I pray they will be one day tho.

 

[Spyridon]

Very easily.

They have a flawed understanding of who Christ is and follow the false image they think of.

There are 1,500,000,000 Muslims on earth who have a severely flawed understanding of the character of God - yet there they are.

 

[thedweh]

Have you heard of BITE? It’s the model for cults:

B is behavior control

I is information control

T is thought control

E is emotional control

The Mormon church has it down pat.

This infallible teaching from the catholic church sounds like thought control doesn’t it?

The Latin term is used in the Latin original document Lumen gentium of the Second Vatican Council regarding the duty of the faithful to give obsequium religiosum (Latin for “religious submission”) of will and intellect to certain teachings of the Magisterium of the Church. The Magisterium is a reference to the authoritative teaching body of the Roman Catholic Church.

The phrase appears in Lumen gentium 25a in the following context, here translated as both “religious assent” and “religious submission”:

Bishops, teaching in communion with the Roman Pontiff, are to be respected by all as witnesses to divine and Catholic truth. In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent. This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking.

The magisterial teachings of the Catholic Church are graded according to a “hierarchy of truths”. The more essentially linked a proposed “truth” is to the mystery of Christ (the “Truth”), the greater the assent of the will to that truth must be. The document Donum Veritatis[1] teaches the following concerning this gradation of assent:

When the Magisterium of the Church makes an infallible pronouncement and solemnly declares that a teaching is found in Revelation, the assent called for is that of theological faith. This kind of adherence is to be given even to the teaching of the ordinary and universal Magisterium when it proposes for belief a teaching of faith as divinely revealed.

When the Magisterium proposes “in a definitive way” truths concerning faith and morals, which, even if not divinely revealed, are nevertheless strictly and intimately connected with Revelation, these must be firmly accepted and held.

When the Magisterium, not intending to act “definitively”, teaches a doctrine to aid a better understanding of Revelation and make explicit its contents, or to recall how some teaching is in conformity with the truths of faith, or finally to guard against ideas that are incompatible with these truths, the response called for is that of the religious submission of will and intellect. This kind of response cannot be simply exterior or disciplinary but must be understood within the logic of faith and under the impulse of obedience to the faith.

 

[vz71]

Right.
But just because someone believes something of themselves does not make it true.
In this case, they use many of the same names, but the people described are completely foreign to true christianity.

 

[Stephen168]

I don’t know about Theotokos, but I have seen writings from Mormons that does use the term Trinity. Now, what they mean by this and how often they use it, are probably two different things.

The Mormons I knew as a kid completely rejected any idea that they believed in the Trinity, but recently in CAF there have been Mormons who claim a trinity of unique Mormon definition.

When you think that, unlike Christianity, the Father and Son are both creatures (created beings) in Mormonism, there is no possibility for there to be a Trinity of Christian understanding.

As much as Mormons love to get in the weeds about the history of the Trinity, Christianity has NEVER held a Mormon understanding of God.

 

[Stephen168]

Have you heard of BITE? It’s the model for cults:

B is behavior control

I is information control

T is thought control

E is emotional control

The Mormon church has it down pat.

I would also add that this only applies in control by an individual; like the Mormon president.

 

[thedweh]

Have you heard of BITE? It’s the model for cults:

B is behavior control

I is information control

T is thought control

E is emotional control

The Mormon church has it down pat.

Here is some emotional control for you, this pedofile, insestual priest was best friends with pope john paul 2.
Truly discusting! why do catholics claim to be christians with stuff like this in their history?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcial_Maciel

 

[Spyridon]

If the Father is a created being, that begs the question:

Who created the Father?

Also, it seems to me the ideas in Mormonism are not new. In fact, they are hundreds and hundreds of years old. It’s like they took old Gnostic concepts, stuck them in a blender with Arianism, and Joseph Smith took the resulting Arian-Gnostic blend and formulated Mormonism and voila! The Latter Day “Saints” are born.

Kind of like Muhammed, how he took Judaism, Christian heresies like Arianism and Nestorianism, together with pre-Islamic Arabic paganism, stuck it in a blender, and formulated his new “Islam”.

It’s no wonder many late 19th and early 20th century writers compared Joseph Smith to Muhammed and Mormonism to Islam. They both have very much in common.