Why Do Most Catholics Ignore Humane Vitae?

[kalbertone]

Pope Paul VI had to cross out the reference To Onan because he knew it was interpreted incorrectly as better scholarship pervaded the church.Even Orhodox Jews who try to live that old mosaic law(which Christ fullfilled & which does not condemn contraception) are allowed to use contraception for serious reasons.Comitted Catholics on the Birth Control Comission in the 60s studied the matter & the history & could not conclude each & every act of contraception was wrong.St Alphonsus patron saint of moral theologians saw couples at times needed to practice the withdrawal method for good reason,he attributed to this as applying the Spirit of the law as well as the letter.Church history is filled with many sexually repressed individuals who had physchological issues. Origen cut off his sexual member thinking it was causing him to sin.Augustine disgraced Christ by saying sin remained when a couple had intercourse.This is GARBAGE. The Church(the people)have spoken. Not every act of contraception for a just cause is illicit. Conscience determines these things not celibates & a absent presence in scripture

 

[serviichristii]

Pope Paul VI had to cross out the reference To Onan because he knew it was interpreted incorrectly as better scholarship pervaded the church.Even Orhodox Jews who try to live that old mosaic law(which Christ fullfilled & which does not condemn contraception) are allowed to use contraception for serious reasons.Comitted Catholics on the Birth Control Comission in the 60s studied the matter & the history & could not conclude each & every act of contraception was wrong.St Alphonsus patron saint of moral theologians saw couples at times needed to practice the withdrawal method for good reason,he attributed to this as applying the Spirit of the law as well as the letter.Church history is filled with many sexually repressed individuals who had physchological issues. Origen cut off his sexual member thinking it was causing him to sin.Augustine disgraced Christ by saying sin remained when a couple had intercourse.This is GARBAGE. The Church(the people)have spoken. Not every act of contraception for a just cause is illicit. Conscience determines these things not celibates & a absent presence in scripture

it is your teaching that is garbage. You are not a saint. You are not the pope. You are probably one of those “Catholics” who try and justify their sin to avoid feeling guilty. Oh and btw, who could care less what the people of the Church say?! The holy spirit has spoken through the Pope and God’s word is final.The church is made up of the people sure, but the people can be wrong whereas the Holy Spirit is truth. You sir are not truth. Let me repeat that one more time.
YOU.DO.NOT.DETERMINE.WHAT.IS.TRUE
Contraception is wrong in all forms; NFP is the only licit form of birth control and you and I both know that. You will be in my prayers.

 

[ahs]

Pope Paul VI had to cross out the reference To Onan because he knew it was interpreted incorrectly as better scholarship pervaded the church.Even Orhodox Jews who try to live that old mosaic law(which Christ fullfilled & which does not condemn contraception) are allowed to use contraception for serious reasons.Comitted Catholics on the Birth Control Comission in the 60s studied the matter & the history & could not conclude each & every act of contraception was wrong.St Alphonsus patron saint of moral theologians saw couples at times needed to practice the withdrawal method for good reason,he attributed to this as applying the Spirit of the law as well as the letter.Church history is filled with many sexually repressed individuals who had physchological issues. Origen cut off his sexual member thinking it was causing him to sin.Augustine disgraced Christ by saying sin remained when a couple had intercourse.This is GARBAGE. The Church(the people)have spoken. Not every act of contraception for a just cause is illicit. Conscience determines these things not celibates & a absent presence in scripture

Do you happen to have a source to support that Paul VI “knew” the Onan story was interpreted incorrectly? Do you have a specific source that says that because certain religions allow contraception that this means it’s okay? Is there something that says that if certain individuals see contraception as okay in certain circumstances that it justifies contraception? Is there a place ion Scripture, or elsewhere that suggests that if teh majority of Catholics feel a certain way, then the Church teaching on a matter shifts with the majority…as in a Democracy? Can you give a specific reference regarding “conscience” and whether it determines what Doctrine is or isn’t?

Or is this all just a matter of your opinion?

 

[Abu]

kalbertone#141
This is GARBAGE. The Church(the people)have spoken. Not every act of contraception for a just cause is illicit. Conscience determines these things not celibates & a absent presence in scripture.

Face reality – no real Catholic dissents from the teaching of Christ through His Church.

Listen and learn if you want to follow Christ, for Vatican II clearly taught that to belong to the *sensus fidei *(the sense of the faithful) requires obeying the Magisterium:
“The whole body of the faithful who have an anointing that comes from the holy one (cf. 1 Jn 2:20, 27) cannot err in matters of belief. This characteristic is shown in the supernatural appreciation of the faith (sensus fidei) of the whole people, when, ‘from the bishops to the last of the faithful’ they manifest a universal consent in matters of faith and morals. **By this appreciation of the faith, aroused and sustained by the Spirit of Truth, the People of God, guided by the sacred teaching authority (Magisterium), and obeying it, receive not the mere word of men, but truly the word of God (cf. 1 Th 2:13), the faith delivered once for all to the saints (cf. Jude 3).” **Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, 12, Vatican II, my emphasis]

John Paul II reiterated this in the Post-Synodal Apostolic Exhortation *Christifideles Laici *(on the Vocation and the Mission of the Lay Faithful in the Church and in the World) 1988, which detailed “the ‘Criteria of Ecclesiality’ for Lay Groups” as requiring “The responsibility of professing the Catholic faith, embracing and proclaiming the truth about Christ, the Church and humanity, in obedience to the Church’s Magisterium, as the Church interprets it.” [p 79, my emphasis].

Any “Catholic” who feels otherwise, and tries to trump Christ, is fooling themselves into perdition.

BTW, conscience is not a god, and has to be formed according to the teaching of Christ through His Church-- see the CCC.

 

[HOLY_POOH_FAN]

It is sad, and disappointing to see the personal comments on here. The Jewish and Christian Tradition from the Bible and practice is to avoid non-natural birth regulation, up to and including the modern version of NFP which is a scientific approach to that goal. Careful of erroneous quotes from the Fathers or saints, especially before the 19th century when the female ovum was discovered and in the 13th when little was known medically about what happens in the womb- Aquinas thought a boy soul was created before a girl soul and similar nonsense.
It is not easy for all Christians to have the discipline to respect each other and follow the female body’s own cycle of fertility. The Evangelicals do not believe in chemical and barrier birth prevention, and some Jewish rabbis offer assistance for the women who have an unusual cycle. Sadly, there has not been enough positive mention given to proper education and formation about the topic for marriage preparation and not enough medicallly informed people who can offer such teaching. HUMANAE VITAE was NOT about birth prevention, it was a warning about what would happen, and it did in torrents, when humans separate the sacramental-physical sign of a couple’s unity within marriage. Vatican 11 put the purposes of marriage together in one sentence, before that they were primary and secondary. They are for parenthood and mutual support- that covers all situations, even if infertile or past chld bearing years,

 

[kalbertone]

Face reality – no real Catholic dissents from the teaching of Christ through His Church.

Listen and learn if you want to follow Christ, for Vatican II clearly taught that to belong to the *sensus fidei *(the sense of the faithful) requires obeying the Magisterium:
“The whole body of the faithful who have an anointing that comes from the holy one (cf. 1 Jn 2:20, 27) cannot err in matters of belief. This characteristic is shown in the supernatural appreciation of the faith (sensus fidei) of the whole people, when, ‘from the bishops to the last of the faithful’ they manifest a universal consent in matters of faith and morals. By this appreciation of the faith, aroused and sustained by the Spirit of Truth, the People of God, guided by the sacred teaching authority (Magisterium), and obeying it, receive not the mere word of men, but truly the word of God (cf. 1 Th 2:13), the faith delivered once for all to the saints (cf. Jude 3).” Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, 12, Vatican II, my emphasis]

John Paul II reiterated this in the Post-Synodal Apostolic Exhortation *Christifideles Laici *(on the Vocation and the Mission of the Lay Faithful in the Church and in the World) 1988, which detailed “the ‘Criteria of Ecclesiality’ for Lay Groups” as requiring “The responsibility of professing the Catholic faith, embracing and proclaiming the truth about Christ, the Church and humanity, in obedience to the Church’s Magisterium, as the Church interprets it.” [p 79, my emphasis].

Any “Catholic” who feels otherwise, and tries to trump Christ, is fooling themselves into perdition.

BTW, conscience is not a god, and has to be formed according to the teaching of Christ through His Church-- see the CCC.

 

[kalbertone]

That is a false interpretation.At Vatican II a proposed amendment to make the infallibility of the Magisterium the source of the people^s infallibilty.This was REJECTED by the council as going against tradition. The German Popes at Vatican 1 stated they would accept papal infallibilty only if the people----RECIEVED the teaching. Pope Pius the IX before declaring the Dogma of the Immaculate conception polled the Bishops to see how the people were RECIEVING the teaching. Sorry buddy ignorance is bliss

 

[kalbertone]

Do you happen to have a source to support that Paul VI “knew” the Onan story was interpreted incorrectly? Do you have a specific source that says that because certain religions allow contraception that this means it’s okay? Is there something that says that if certain individuals see contraception as okay in certain circumstances that it justifies contraception? Is there a place ion Scripture, or elsewhere that suggests that if teh majority of Catholics feel a certain way, then the Church teaching on a matter shifts with the majority…as in a Democracy? Can you give a specific reference regarding “conscience” and whether it determines what Doctrine is or isn’t?

Or is this all just a matter of your opinion?

 

[kalbertone]

HE didn^t use the same arguments as Pius XI in Cast Connubili in the 30s.He was aware that the Onan story was misinterpreted.In the Catholic Catechism & in the Documents Of Vatican II & John Paul II^s encyclicles—NOWHERE is the story of Onan found

 

[kalbertone]

it is your teaching that is garbage. You are not a saint. You are not the pope. You are probably one of those “Catholics” who try and justify their sin to avoid feeling guilty. Oh and btw, who could care less what the people of the Church say?! The holy spirit has spoken through the Pope and God’s word is final.The church is made up of the people sure, but the people can be wrong whereas the Holy Spirit is truth. You sir are not truth. Let me repeat that one more time.
YOU.DO.NOT.DETERMINE.WHAT.IS.TRUE
Contraception is wrong in all forms; NFP is the only licit form of birth control and you and I both know that. You will be in my prayers.

 

[kalbertone]

Face reality – no real Catholic dissents from the teaching of Christ through His Church.

Listen and learn if you want to follow Christ, for Vatican II clearly taught that to belong to the *sensus fidei *(the sense of the faithful) requires obeying the Magisterium:
“The whole body of the faithful who have an anointing that comes from the holy one (cf. 1 Jn 2:20, 27) cannot err in matters of belief. This characteristic is shown in the supernatural appreciation of the faith (sensus fidei) of the whole people, when, ‘from the bishops to the last of the faithful’ they manifest a universal consent in matters of faith and morals. By this appreciation of the faith, aroused and sustained by the Spirit of Truth, the People of God, guided by the sacred teaching authority (Magisterium), and obeying it, receive not the mere word of men, but truly the word of God (cf. 1 Th 2:13), the faith delivered once for all to the saints (cf. Jude 3).” Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, 12, Vatican II, my emphasis]

John Paul II reiterated this in the Post-Synodal Apostolic Exhortation *Christifideles Laici *(on the Vocation and the Mission of the Lay Faithful in the Church and in the World) 1988, which detailed “the ‘Criteria of Ecclesiality’ for Lay Groups” as requiring “The responsibility of professing the Catholic faith, embracing and proclaiming the truth about Christ, the Church and humanity, in obedience to the Church’s Magisterium, as the Church interprets it.” [p 79, my emphasis].

Any “Catholic” who feels otherwise, and tries to trump Christ, is fooling themselves into perdition.

BTW, conscience is not a god, and has to be formed according to the teaching of Christ through His Church-- see the CCC.

 

[fix]

Most catholics reject humanae vitae because it goes against reason & peoples experiences.
Some people here mention the early church fathers.They followed the pagan greeks that hailed sex in marriage as a necessary evil tainted with sin.This is far from the gospel as east is to west & from ignorant sexually repressed psychopants.As British historian lord acton stated when pius ix condemned democracy, just because a pope goes crazy doesn^t mean a catholic has to.There^s no mention of contraception in bible,onan got killed for not following a levite tradition of fathering a child for his deceased brothers wife.Usury condemed in scripture,the church fathers & councils nicae,vienne,lateran under any circumstance is now practiced by the Vatican bank.What happened to teachings on usury,condemnation of freedom of press,democracy,slavery being moral etc all taught by popes----they all went out the window because the people(who are the church)rejected these nonsenses.You see their is the doctrine of Reception.The people must recieve a teaching.If they don6t further on down the road it gets changed

Are you the authority?

 

[Nate13]

HE didn^t use the same arguments as Pius XI in Cast Connubili in the 30s.He was aware that the Onan story was misinterpreted.In the Catholic Catechism & in the Documents Of Vatican II & John Paul II^s encyclicles—NOWHERE is the story of Onan found

Interesting. I assume you haven’t read the Theology of the Body by JPII then which is the defense he gave of Humane Vitae?

I direct you to page 271:

“It is perhaps useful to add that in the interpretation of the Old Testament, while the prohibition of adultery is marked—one might say—by a compromise with the concupiscence of the body, the opposition to sexual deviations is clearly defined. The relevant prescriptions, which impose capital punishment for homosexuality and bestiality confirm this opposition. As for the behavior of Onan, son of Judah (whose name is the origin of the modern term “onanism”), Sacred Scripture says that, “What he did was displeasing in the sight of the Lord, and he put him to death also” (Gen 38:10).”

What the Onan story and the laws of the Old Testament concerning sexuality tell us is that acts that contradict the procreative purpose of sex were always considered immoral. The Church has never ceased in teaching this Truth.

 

[kalbertone]

kalbertone:
What FR. Eckhart stated involved a case where a person who refused to enter a sexual relationship with a deceased brother^s wife was publicly humiliated. Onan actually entered a relationship & refused to offer a his deceased brother & his wife a child by spilling his seed. Nowhere in the scriptures from A to Z is there any mention of contraception.All the codes of the Mosaic law mention ZERO about contraception. The Catechism,Humanae Vitae & all Papal Documents from John Paul II don^t even mention Onan.
By the way ,if today a Catholic dies,is it OK for his married brother to sleep with his widowed wife to bear him a child if he didn^t have any ? I wonder what the living Brother^s wife would feel to allow her husband access for sex to his deceased brother^s wife. Since you people love to quote & be involved in what Christ abolished I guess you would approve it as a “good” ^ “morally licit”

 

[kalbertone]

Are you the authority?

The People or the Church at large is the authority.For the Spirit works in them as well. Just ask Pope Liberius & most Bishops who supported the Arian Creed that Jesus is a creation Of God after Nicae.The people in large numbers resisted & said NO,jesus is God in the flesh. Contraception that avoids procreation altogether is wrong.Contraception used in good conscience to space births when needed is fine.

 

[fix]

The People or the Church at large is the authority.

What does this mean? How many people, through the ages, must agree? Can the Holy Spirit say one thing through the magisterium and another through people who reject the magisterium?

For the Spirit works in them as well.

Not if they contradict the Church. Christ said he who hears you hears Me and he who rejects you rejects Me. That is clear.

Just ask Pope Liberius & most Bishops who supported the Arian Creed that Jesus is a creation Of God after Nicae.The people in large numbers resisted & said NO,jesus is God in the flesh.

When did the magisterium teach error? Not individual bishops.

Contraception that avoids procreation altogether is wrong.Contraception used in good conscience to space births when needed is fine.

This is a serious error.

 

[fix]

Since you people love to quote & be involved in what Christ abolished I guess you would approve it as a “good” ^ “morally licit”

The Mosaic law was abolished, not the moral law.

 

[Abu]

Listen and learn if you want to follow Christ, for Vatican II clearly taught that to belong to the sensus fidei (the sense of the faithful) requires obeying the Magisterium:
“The whole body of the faithful who have an anointing that comes from the holy one (cf. 1 Jn 2:20, 27) cannot err in matters of belief. This characteristic is shown in the supernatural appreciation of the faith (sensus fidei) of the whole people, when, ‘from the bishops to the last of the faithful’ they manifest a universal consent in matters of faith and morals. By this appreciation of the faith, aroused and sustained by the Spirit of Truth, the People of God, guided by the sacred teaching authority (Magisterium), and obeying it, receive not the mere word of men, but truly the word of God (cf. 1 Th 2:13), the faith delivered once for all to the saints (cf. Jude 3).” Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, 12, Vatican II, my emphasis]

kalbertone #147
That is a false interpretation.

No real Catholic ridicules and rejects the doctrinal teaching of an Ecumenical Council or of a Pope.
Further, this poster seems incapable of exercising reason and conscience correctly.

 

[Chrono13]

The Church did reply, but in a carefully coordinated attack, was denounced by those inside and outside the Church. God has a logical, rational plan for the use of human sexuality. The practical part was severely damaged by small, outside groups that were wolves in sheep’s clothing. “Peace, man. Peace, brother.” “Hey man, if it feels good, do it.” Followed by an underground media campaign that became more and more overt as the years passed. Separating sex from love was and still is, the goal.

You are not entirely wrong, but I can’t agree with you completely. This idea that Church is under attack by some “underground wolves” who have an agenda to separate sex from love is- without desire to insult you or anyone else- an exaggeration which does more harm to Catholic credibility then support it. If for nothing else, the idea that sex has nothing or little with emotions originates from Church Fathers.

The thing is, Church did not convince a lot of people that “loving” means “using natural birth control”. Or that practicing NFP shows respect to womanhood. Or that “being open to life” is a sign of family spirit and care for the life at general. These things remind me when Muslims speak about polygamy (“when true love is present, there is no envy between wives” , “polygamy respects women because while one wife takes care of the home, the other can educate herself” , “since there is more women then men on the planet, polygamy will soon become neccesity”).

The practical questions facing each human being are: Who decides when you have sex? The State? The Church? And - Who is in control of your sexual faculties?

Oh come on.

We all control out faculties, and chose our own paths. I pity the person who falls for modern all-sex approach just as I pity the Catholic who thinks Church taught sex is wonderful expression of self-giving from day one.

No artificial birth control method is 100% effective.

But provide acceptable risk.

 

[Chrono13]

Vatican 11 put the purposes of marriage together in one sentence, before that they were primary and secondary.

You are right- but let’s meditate for a second on this thought. Church actually up to 20th Century refused to claim marital unity has the same value as procreation. As a matter of fact, certain Popes in 20th Century claimed that stating othwerwise was serious error.