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LongingSoul
Guest
Yes, there is also the common phenomenon of having a few drinks and throwing caution to the wind with fingers crossed.
Why do most people ignore the Church's teaching on contraception?
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LongingSoul
Guest
That I disagree with and from a very primal place too. That belief that ‘natural’ means being uninhibited by nature is really and oxymoron. Natur(e)al in literal terms means conforming to nature rather than to concupiscent desire.
It reminds me of a paper from a psychologist that I’d come across when I was working for a counselling organisation. She’s fairly popular and hard to get an appointment with because her practice quickly became exclusively dominated by what was originally a small subset of issues. She counsels people who are extremely obese and applying for lap band surgery. The fact is that a lot of people aren’t recomended for the surgery because their attitude to eating is so intrinsically distorted, it can’t work. So a lot of people think that eating according to desire is the natural right and that discipline and schedules are unnaturally imposed restrictions. That belief is a legacy from times past when food was scarce and rationed and the body went into a different mode that suited the situation.
In fact it is conducive to good overall body function to have scheduled meals and periods of fast. It is that that is actually natural rather than the whims of desire that have all sorts of sources that are unnatural.
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SnoopSword
Guest
hehe… our particular Orthodox is actually communion already with the Catholic Church. I believe if the ‘conversions’ are ‘too close’ together it could be a form of rejecting my infant baptism and even being schismatic or apostate to both Churches… but thats in my particular case and circumstances.But you’re still Orthodox?
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kptrs
Guest
I have to wonder how this same person would react if the unplanned pregnancy were the result of a contraception failure (since, after all, no method of birth control is infallible - except abstinence). At whom or what would his rage be directed then? Would he blast the condom manufacturers (or the manufacturers of whichever specific method he used that failed)? Contraception in general? The doctors who recommended that particular method of birth control to him? Somehow I’m not so sure he would.
How would people who are so angry about getting pregnant while using NFP feel if the got pregnant using contraception? Who can they blame then? Would they respond with such anger?
Just seems like the Church and NFP take all the hating for unplanned pregnancies while doctors and contraception get off scott free when their method fail.
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SnoopSword
Guest
Let her post bear whitness to my claim of blood clots and the pill, as well as how quickly they can claim your life.
From such a small number unique readers of my one post ALREADY someone has verified my claims. The surgeons will know, the victims (patients) will know, and all of society is completely in the dark of these dangers. These pills are VERY DANGEROUS both short AND long term and should NOT be taken - religion aside!
(religionwise, the pill advent confirms Satan gained official rule over our institutions and have hijacked them - possibly verifying the 1000 year reign really ended at reformation when Satan was unchained to roam the earth).
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PaulinVA
Guest
Natural in the sense of "when the time is right’, not “when the chart tells you”. That’s unnatural - following a chart that tells you when to desire sex and when not to. It ends up killing everything. It is not good.
I say that as someone who has been there and been relieved of the burden of having to deal with fertility. My wife and I are by no means having wild and crazy relations every day. It’s simply she isn’t afraid of getting pregnant and I don’t have to perform on cue like a trained seal.
Wow, that didn’t come out like I meant it to. Anyway, i’ll leave that in. I know that discipline is good. And there are benefits to exercising discipline in the sexual desires. But, it’s not all rainbows and unicorns.
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bitterhope
Guest
What you’ve said is very true. There really is nothing natural about Natural Family Planning. I agree it isn’t artificial but it is far from natural.
I don’t like the way many people very fertility as a burden. Fertility is a gift from God–a gift that allows us to share in the blessing of creation with Him. I don’t like that so many view fertility as a burden but it is something I understand and something I felt at one point myself. Fertility is like many blessings God gives us. It’s a double edged sword. On the one hand we share in the creation of new life–the greatest of all His gifts–and on the other hand we are entrusted with the stewardship of His kingdom on earth. With all of God’s freely given gifts comes tons of responsibility.
Jesus stated as he carried His cross that one day people would cry out blessed are the barren. He told us this time would come. But not only have people today determined sterility is preferable to fertility, they have determined that when THEY choose to have a child, any means necessary to create new life should be used. Life has become an accessory that is shown off in pictures. Life is no longer treated as God’s most prized possession. God created humans to share in creation with Him, in His image, and to return to Him in heaven at the end of our days. We were created for heaven not earth.
NFP did not work for my husband and me. We had multiple unplanned babies. We decided to accept God’s will for our lives and just stop planning. Each baby was a happy surprise from that day forward. My guess is that for couples that have great success with years and years of NFP use, probably they have reasons that align with God’s plan for their family. Those of us that can’t make NFP work probably need to adjust our plans to fit with His plan. I realize that is easier said than done. It took a great deal of prayer to accept the life God chose for me. I understand why many in my situation choose birth control of any form including NFP (if it works for them) instead. For over a year we have abstained because my husband is not willing to risk another lost baby. I would love to try again to be honest. I trust God will change my husband’s heart when the time is right. Until then, I will be patient.
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LongingSoul
Guest
The overwhelming negativity to nfp that I’ve seen on CAF and another Catholic site is a challenge for me at one level. I think that my ignorance of modern sexual mores has made me very passive about nfp. I was raised in an extremely Catholic, Irish/English environment with so many religious in my family tree … and legend has it that we are descended from St Thomas More and his descendents siblings (the first Bishop in Australia). My husband and I did what we had to do in a quite conservative way to be able to manage children. (I’m not a natural mother) My reflection is maybe we missed out on a great sexual experience because of nfp?? But on the other hand, I do feel that we were natural in organizing that part of our life in accordance with natural cycles and our plans for our family. Who knows if its me that’s foolish or others who denigrate nfp. I guess time and experience will tell. I’m kinda glad I didn’t find CAF until I was just about in menopause because I may have been enticed by the prospect of uninhibited sexual freedom or the guilt tripped by the nfp enemies who said I should keep having babies/or abstain permanently regardless of any other considerations bar my imminent death.
Perhaps I should write a proper essay about Catholic nfp from a lifelong Catholics ladies point of view? I just never thought it was such a horrible thing until my couple of years here.
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LongingSoul
Guest
Would you say that you are speaking for yourself alone or is that your wifes perspective also?
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bitterhope
Guest
I notice you’ve missed the point again. I said that obviously NFP works year after year for some couples. Perhaps that is proof of God approving of your reasons for using it. God did not make it possible for NFP to work for me or many other women. I said perhaps God has a different plan for those like me. I don’t know because God doesn’t verbally speak to me and let me in on His secrets. He thinks differently than I do so I can’t read His reasons no matter how much I would like to. Not once have I advocated for death by childbirth. Not once have I attempted to have uninhibited sexual freedom or even desired that. I’m certainly not experiencing that in my celibate marriage. Not once have I said anything like what you are posting as a reply to my post.
I too have many religious in my family tree, and my husband does in his as well. In my generation alone there are six priests, 17 sisters in various orders, and 2 cloistered monks. My mom and dad’s generation add many more, especially Maryknoll missionaries–both priests and sisters. But I’m not really sure what that has to do with any of this. Our religious relatives are called to spiritual fatherhood and motherhood and have no need for birth control of any form. I do feel blessed to be prayed for by them though.
I’m very glad NFP has worked out well for you and you haven’t had the issues so many others have had. That’s great! Some of my family members share that with you. Some of my siblings are infertile. Some have switched from NFP to something that “works better” for them (their words not mine). And then there is me who opted instead to just align my will to God’s will. If NFP worked for me I would assume my reasons for avoiding another child matched God’s plan for me. That’s what I’m thinking about the couples that share your experience. What do you think couples like us should do when we don’t share your experience? There are an awful lot of us out here. If you have a better option than artificial birth control or abstaining completely (which ruins many marriages and many more are unwilling/able to do so for whatever reason, and even St. Paul cautioned against prolonged abstinence), I would love to hear it. Deciding to happily add another member to my family instead of freaking out each time seemed to me to be the most loving thing to do. Going through the growing pains of motherhood and stretching my comfort zone seemed to be less painful than the fires of Hell. I don’t know really. I just thought if God saw me as capable than I would do my best not to disappoint Him.
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Abu
Guest
It would seem that some readers would benefit from the expertise of those who have looked at and provided answers to the difficult cases requiring Natural Birth Regulation.
So these include:
Creighton Model
Billings Ovulation Method
The Marquette University Institute for Natural Family Planning
Family of the Americas Foundation
See:
catholicism.about.com/od/catholicliving/tp/NFP_Resources.htm
The efficacy of NBR may be gauged from the great work of Mrs Mercedes Wilson.
Wilson’s Family of the Americas Foundation now teaches NBR in more than 100 countries, including China. “God would not be so cruel that unless you can read you can’t follow natural family planning,” she insists. “Why make it so complicated?” Wilson’s bold decision to dispense with the thermometer and rely solely on observations of mucus was followed by the Billings in Australia several years later.
NBR families, whether Couple to Couple or Billings followers, report an astonishingly low divorce rate — one informal study puts it at 1.3 percent, as compared with about 50 percent in society at large. Even accounting for the high level of dedication of the NBR group studied, experts estimate that the divorce rate for NBR couples does not go above 4 percent. Wilson’s Family of the Americas has a study that shows a 2 percent divorce rate. Advocates say that NBR promotes communication between husband and wife because both must be involved. Husbands are encouraged to help with the charting.
Wilson claims an effectiveness rate of 99 percent among “the poorest of the poor” in Guatemala. “There’s no excuse anymore to pretend that only those with strong religious convictions can follow natural family planning,” [NBR] she writes.
Unlike the rhythm method, the Billings method does not depend on a stable menstrual cycle. Numerous independent trials have confirmed the 99 percent success rate of the Billings Method, including a recent study following thousands of women for more than a year. If any further proof is needed, the method has been regularly used up to date by over 2,686,400 fertile couples in China for avoiding pregnancy with an overall success rate of approximately 99 percent.
Meet a giant in the Catholic World of Justice, Love and Peace:
Mrs Mercedes Arzú Wilson is founder and President of Family of the Americas Foundation since 1977.
She has received three Honorary Doctor Degrees and numerous awards for her work in the pro-life/family movement, most recently from Franciscan University at Steubenville. (Doctor of Humane Letters 2006)
In 1994, she was appointed as a founding Member of the Pontifical Academy for Life by St John Paul II, and continues to defend life from the moment of conception until its natural end.
omsoul.com/catalog/wilson…rzu-m0102.html
So these include:
Creighton Model
Billings Ovulation Method
The Marquette University Institute for Natural Family Planning
Family of the Americas Foundation
See:
catholicism.about.com/od/catholicliving/tp/NFP_Resources.htm
The efficacy of NBR may be gauged from the great work of Mrs Mercedes Wilson.
Wilson’s Family of the Americas Foundation now teaches NBR in more than 100 countries, including China. “God would not be so cruel that unless you can read you can’t follow natural family planning,” she insists. “Why make it so complicated?” Wilson’s bold decision to dispense with the thermometer and rely solely on observations of mucus was followed by the Billings in Australia several years later.
NBR families, whether Couple to Couple or Billings followers, report an astonishingly low divorce rate — one informal study puts it at 1.3 percent, as compared with about 50 percent in society at large. Even accounting for the high level of dedication of the NBR group studied, experts estimate that the divorce rate for NBR couples does not go above 4 percent. Wilson’s Family of the Americas has a study that shows a 2 percent divorce rate. Advocates say that NBR promotes communication between husband and wife because both must be involved. Husbands are encouraged to help with the charting.
Wilson claims an effectiveness rate of 99 percent among “the poorest of the poor” in Guatemala. “There’s no excuse anymore to pretend that only those with strong religious convictions can follow natural family planning,” [NBR] she writes.
Unlike the rhythm method, the Billings method does not depend on a stable menstrual cycle. Numerous independent trials have confirmed the 99 percent success rate of the Billings Method, including a recent study following thousands of women for more than a year. If any further proof is needed, the method has been regularly used up to date by over 2,686,400 fertile couples in China for avoiding pregnancy with an overall success rate of approximately 99 percent.
Meet a giant in the Catholic World of Justice, Love and Peace:
Mrs Mercedes Arzú Wilson is founder and President of Family of the Americas Foundation since 1977.
She has received three Honorary Doctor Degrees and numerous awards for her work in the pro-life/family movement, most recently from Franciscan University at Steubenville. (Doctor of Humane Letters 2006)
In 1994, she was appointed as a founding Member of the Pontifical Academy for Life by St John Paul II, and continues to defend life from the moment of conception until its natural end.
omsoul.com/catalog/wilson…rzu-m0102.html
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PaulinVA
Guest
Oh, she shares my view.
But, as I’ve been posting the past few days, I have begun to wonder about what it is I am resentful about. We got pregnant at the beginning of of marriage while on the Pill and miscarried the baby. After that, we used various methods until we settled on NFP until menopause. Probably 25 years or so. I never trusted Artificial Birth Control.
Knowing NFP, we knew that having sex during a fertile period with a barrier method was just hoping the barrier would hold. The Pill is hoping the hormones are enough to overpower the body’s hormones. That wasn’t smart to us. So, I’m not advocating ABC. I think NFP is much more reliable. It’s just unnatural.
The reader might be coming to the conclusion that I really resented fertility. And, the reader would probably be correct. This discussion has helped me realize that.
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loumeland
Guest
Oh please, give me a break. Leave the quack eschatology to the Protestants.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
I am curious as to the point of renaming nfp nbr. I don’t find it in any of the links you provide or anywhere really. Is it a personal attempt by you to change the wording and if so why? I get from a marketing standpoint why “birth” might be preferable as it invokes a more life friendly feeling. But why regulation? Is that to move away from the idea if “planning”. If so there are two problems with that.
1 regulation is a cold word. Invoking more visions of a bureaucracy.
2. It is nfp never learning the old adage about a pig and lipstick.
Global warming = climate change
Gay marriage = same sex marriage.
Rebranding ignores the failures of the actuAl system.
Or it is just as innocent as something I have never heard of in my ignorance…
. Care to elaborate?I know what nfp is but where can I learn about nbr?
Mary_Gail_36
New member
I’ve heard that term before, especially in translated documents…I am curious as to the point of renaming nfp nbr. I don’t find it in any of the links you provide or anywhere really. Is it a personal attempt by you to change the wording and if so why? I get from a marketing standpoint why “birth” might be preferable as it invokes a more life friendly feeling. But why regulation? Is that to move away from the idea if “planning”. If so there are two problems with that.
1 regulation is a cold word. Invoking more visions of a bureaucracy.
2. It is nfp never learning the old adage about a pig and lipstick.
Global warming = climate change
Gay marriage = same sex marriage.
Rebranding ignores the failures of the actuAl system.
Or it is just as innocent as something I have never heard of in my ignorance…
I know what nfp is but where can I learn about nbr?
Here’s an older document, 1981:
ewtn.com/library/MARRIAGE/CCLBC.TXT
Humanae Vitae is subtitled On the Regulation of Birth.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
I still can’t find NBR as an acronym. I get that natural and birth and regulation are used often but I wonder why the poster made up thier own acronym instead of using nfp. There has to be a reason. It is obviously done deliberately. I’m just curious what that reason is. It does not show up in Google or in any acronym finders. At all.
So where can I learn about NBR?
Aside.
Sometimes I wonder who changed things and when? Who decided climate change was better? Who decided ssm was better? Is this an example of finding the rarest of birds. The exact point when language was altered to try to rebrand an ideology?
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LongingSoul
Guest
Oh sorry. I was mostly addressing the “many people” that you were talking of in your post and speaking more generally of the negativity about nfp on here. I find it strange that there’s a palpable hostility towards people “who nfp works for” though. It comes across almost like spiritual envy or something. But I mostly feel sorry for the generations of Catholics to come who are being taught osmotically that nfp is a burden and unnatural to the normal flow of life.
The reason I mention my upbringing is to really highlight that living Catholic is different to living the modern secular marriage mores. I don’t look at the modern secular marriages and think they are less good than Catholic marriage though. People live according to their conscience and the majority of those consciences are formed by secular upbringings. In a sort of way I think it is even more noble to live the secular marriage than to live in a Catholic marriage and resent the Catholic teaching. Chronic resentment of Church teaching seems like a dangerous way to live our faith to my mind. I even think that if I felt it that way without coming to peace with the teaching… I would just go to contraception. We’ve had a lot of extended abstinences. My husband was in a way similar to yours in that because our first child was stillborn and I was touch and go with bleeding in the period after that. (The placenta tore away from the uterus too soon) He just couldn’t bring himself to have sex during any of my subsequent pregnancies. It had traumatised him too much. But to me even that seemed natural. We experienced a bad thing and didn’t want to take the slightest risk of harming pregnancy in any way. It’s a long extended period of abstinence now as I dither through the menopause. That doesn’t seem unnatural either. It’s just a Catholic thing in this modern world that goes a contraceptive route with its modern inventions.
I just don’t think it is good Catholic practice to entertain chronic resentment to Catholic teaching I suppose. I think that it is a dangerous thing not to address because resentment and bitterness are well known ‘portals’ for the entry of evil to our soul. If we feel that way in a long term chronic way… we should make every effort to resolve to make peace with Catholic teaching or dissent peacefully.
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Memaw
Guest
How would you explain what’s happening to our society, (world). God Bless, Memaw
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jmjZelie
Guest
What a powerful realization that you have had, PaulinVA! I have paid close attention to your posts in this thread. I think your sharing in this thread has been enlightening. It can be very hard at times to understand God’s design and His will. Sometimes, we are tempted to resent what God calls good, because it is also difficult. As a woman, I sometimes feel tempted to resent the physical pains and limitations that the fruit of a fertile marriage bring about: pregnancy and childbearing and nursing, I mean. But then I remember St. Paul exhorts wives to be faithful in childbearing (and presumably, nurturing and rearing said children) and that through that wives may be saved. That isn’t a put down. That is a promise. Accepting fertility and what comes of it, or abstaining from the use of marriage if necessary, is a path to holiness. It is good to recognize the seeds of resentment and root them out.
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jmjZelie
Guest
I cannot provide a link for you but I can say that I have seen NBR and NFP used interchangeably. I think NBR is more of an umbrella term that includes couples who practice complete abstinence if they need to avoid or postpone pregnancy. Whereas NFP typically refers to one of the science-based methods such as STM or Creighton.
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