Why do most people ignore the Church's teaching on contraception?

[jmjZelie]

A quick scan back through the thread and I noticed that I posted more theological passages and links in defense of NFP than anyone. For example posts …

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13550233&postcount=144

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13554465&postcount=268

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13547863&postcount=65

And also linked to the really great resource pages from the USCCB…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13570624&postcount=411

I certainly don’t promote any crazy ideologies. Only the clear teachings of the Church and the spiritual richness of responsible family planning the natural way. I love the promotion of happy marriage and the witness of those couples who live their trials with joyful integrity. If you think that’s ideological nonsense, that’s beyond my control. But I think to take a personal problem with an instructor and fashion it into a generalised antagonism against the NFP ‘industry’, is what is dishonest and ideological.

Whoa. Where did I accuse you of promoting ideologies?

I said we should want theology being promoted, not ideology. We. As in, all the Catholic lay faithful and including you and I. There are instances of other people promoting ideologies. I think acknowledging that some particular teaching is not actually what the Church teaches and that someone has perhaps fallen into ideology can help to protect the actual teachings of the Church and Her faithful.

Why are you assuming that people discussing a concern with you are adversarial? I don’t understand why that is happening, especially with my posts to you. I hope you will stop looking for any hint of malice or spite in my posts. None are there, I assure you.

 

[bitterhope]

@bitterhope. I’m just very curious on if you’ve ever used the Creighton method?

I’m not an instructor, but why hasn’t any instructor from the various methods you have used pointed that of course you can conceive on day 28?

Meaning you ovulated then. The “ovulation” mid cycle was probably your body gearing up to ovulate and not because of something, usually stress, you didn’t. When your husband came back is when you actually ovulated. The bleeding you had could have been very likely also stress related, or even implantation bleeding

I know my last child was conceived day 24 of my cycle.

Maybe your instructor didn’t know about double peak? Meaning that the first peak, ovulation doesn’t occur, even though all the symptoms are there, then it occurs later in the month. It’s delayed due to stress.

I know it happens, it’s happened to me.

I’ve also had cycles where the fertility tests were positive various times during the cycle. I’ve learned that you can get a false positive on a fertility stick, if you have pcos.

I think you’ve not really found very good instructors.

The instructors I’ve had are CCL and from two different diocese I was living in. I was somewhat taught billings but not for NFP. It was for feminine health checks. Sex wasn’t even in my radar at that time. I have not used Creighton. My sister teaches Creighton and although I have talked with her multiple times over the years I’m not interested in having her teach me. It would be awkward for both of us quite honestly. We also live several hundred miles apart and she prefers teaching face to face. I’m also at a point now that I have no interest in ever going down the NFP path again. It took me too long to spiritually recover from the years I spent trying to figure out what is wrong with me and defending my husband to people that I refuse to ever go through that again. I’m at peace with God and realize that there is nothing at all wrong in His design of my body. He made me how He did for my benefit. My reason for posting at all is to assure other ladies that they are not abnormal for not having the glowing results the statistics and instructors boast. Their fertility is a gift some other ladies beg God for. It’s not something to be feared, it’s something to embrace. By all means if whatever method of NFP you choose gives you the results your looking for go on and use it. Apparently God is seeing His plan lived out in you. But don’t make others think they are doing something wrong or just haven’t found the right method if it’s not working for them. Don’t on the one hand tell couples to abstain when dire circumstances exist and on the other say it’s scrupulous to do so, and that instead they should find a method of NFP that they trust. Don’t tell people that choosing to accept babies as they come means they are ignoring the teaching on responsible parenthood. Instead celebrate that they did not abandon the faith. Invite the ones who fall back to the Church with understanding that they may truly not be able to use NFP to avoid pregnancy. Help them understand that it is part of God’s plan for their life. Why is it that as a Church we are quick to remind people of the need to accept that God is the one in control in all parts of our life EXCEPT when it comes to NFP? That is where the distrust is coming from. Women are told the method will prevent pregnancy unless they mess it up somehow. That simply isn’t true. The method will work to prevent (or achieve) pregnancy as long as God wills it.

 

[Regina7]

The instructors I’ve had are CCL and from two different diocese I was living in. I was somewhat taught billings but not for NFP. It was for feminine health checks. Sex wasn’t even in my radar at that time. I have not used Creighton. My sister teaches Creighton and although I have talked with her multiple times over the years I’m not interested in having her teach me. It would be awkward for both of us quite honestly. We also live several hundred miles apart and she prefers teaching face to face. I’m also at a point now that I have no interest in ever going down the NFP path again. It took me too long to spiritually recover from the years I spent trying to figure out what is wrong with me and defending my husband to people that I refuse to ever go through that again. I’m at peace with God and realize that there is nothing at all wrong in His design of my body. He made me how He did for my benefit. My reason for posting at all is to assure other ladies that they are not abnormal for not having the glowing results the statistics and instructors boast. Their fertility is a gift some other ladies beg God for. It’s not something to be feared, it’s something to embrace. By all means if whatever method of NFP you choose gives you the results your looking for go on and use it. Apparently God is seeing His plan lived out in you. But don’t make others think they are doing something wrong or just haven’t found the right method if it’s not working for them. Don’t on the one hand tell couples to abstain when dire circumstances exist and on the other say it’s scrupulous to do so, and that instead they should find a method of NFP that they trust. Don’t tell people that choosing to accept babies as they come means they are ignoring the teaching on responsible parenthood. Instead celebrate that they did not abandon the faith. Invite the ones who fall back to the Church with understanding that they may truly not be able to use NFP to avoid pregnancy. Help them understand that it is part of God’s plan for their life. Why is it that as a Church we are quick to remind people of the need to accept that God is the one in control in all parts of our life EXCEPT when it comes to NFP? That is where the distrust is coming from. Women are told the method will prevent pregnancy unless they mess it up somehow. That simply isn’t true. The method will work to prevent (or achieve) pregnancy as long as God wills it.

I appreciate your response. As someone who’s always struggled with fertility, miscarriage and stillbirth, I admit I get frustrated when I hear people complain about being too fertile. Just like I’ve been told countless times that this path is obviously God’s will for me, those who struggle with being too fertile should also understand that those children are part of God’s plan. And perhaps the intense struggle those have with nfp should, rather that revert to abc, which is never God’s will, just trust that God knows what he’s doing.

When I feel the urge to complain about my problems, I think about Mary’s fiat. She didn’t say, “But God, I wanted 7 children!” She lived a life of abstinence. She never complained that it was hurting her marriage with St. Joseph. Rather, she understood that following God’s will is ALWAYS better than what we think is best.

 

[Xantippe]

The OB I currently have is NFP only. He’s the deacon at a local parish. He’s reviewed my charts as well and told me that it is thought that a small percentage of women may be induced ovulators, meaning that hormones released during intercourse encourage ovulation to occur.

That does seem like a good working theory for your particular case.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

I appreciate your response. As someone who’s always struggled with fertility, miscarriage and stillbirth, I admit I get frustrated when I hear people complain about being too fertile. Just like I’ve been told countless times that this path is obviously God’s will for me, those who struggle with being too fertile should also understand that those children are part of God’s plan. And perhaps the intense struggle those have with nfp should, rather that revert to abc, which is never God’s will, just trust that God knows what he’s doing.

When I feel the urge to complain about my problems, I think about Mary’s fiat. She didn’t say, “But God, I wanted 7 children!” She lived a life of abstinence. She never complained that it was hurting her marriage with St. Joseph. Rather, she understood that following God’s will is ALWAYS better than what we think is best.

Beautifully said!

 

[Xantippe]

My point is, it’s a lot easier for a man to be “open to life” than for a woman to be. After all I, as a man, don’t have to carry the child in my body and go through all that entails. There is a profound difference between the sexes in this regard, obviously. Given this, I don’t feel entitled to tell a woman how to handle her reproductive functions. That is between her and God and is her decision. I see nothing wrong with taking this position.

Well first off not all NFP involves charting and crunching numbers. The Standard Days Method and the LadyComp involve none of these things. Those are as simple as using an app or using a device to take your temp once in the morning and then going back to sleep. Ignoring the fertile days is a much bigger concern yes, as I’m sure many couples just don’t have the strength to abstain on those days. Note that women just as much as men may fall into that category.

If it came down to another pregnancy which would result in destitution, eviction, living on the streets and possibly death, verses getting on the pill, due to the couples lack of self-control, I think the pill would be the more moral option. And most sane rational people would agree with me.

But again, I’m not trying to touch this issue with a ten-foot-pole, I’m leaving it up to my future wife. More than likely she’s going to use contraception, because the thought of pregnancy at this point scares her, and though she’s an otherwise faithful and devout Catholic she doesn’t buy into this teaching at all. Yet if she chooses NFP I will do my part and abstain when necessary.

Standard Days has very limited usefulness. It says here that it’s for women with cycles 26-32 days long:

natural-family-planning.info/standard-days-method.htm

That’s a very small window to hit, even under the best of circumstances, and even a normally very regular woman will have to turn to a different method postpartum or during perimenopause.

Anecdotally, couples who are successful with NFP often seem to have a high level of involvement and help from the husband, whereas non-involvement by the husband often correlates with poor NFP results. My husband and I have had reasonably good NFP results, but he’s always been very involved with it.

Likewise, there may be some fine-tuning involved to get optimal results, and it’s helpful to have two heads to put together when figuring out how to do better.

Also part of the benefit of NFP is that it is encourages full and frank conversations about personal issues. By making it just the wife’s deal, you eliminate that benefit. Those full and frank conversations are not just going to be about sex and cervical fluid. They may also include stuff like, “I would be happy to have another baby if you were more helpful around the house or spent more time with the kids, but right now, I feel like you’re just another child.” Contraception short-circuits the need to have that conversation.

 

[loumeland]

I don’t like the Church’s teaching on this, in all honesty. I hate it actually. But I am not so bold as to say the Church is wrong. I admit that the Church in its 2,000 years of existence has more wisdom than I do in my 25. So I personally will not use contraception.

That said, I am a man, not a woman, and so it is quite a different thing for me. Me and my girlfriend have talked about this, as we plan to get married, and I’ve basically told her that whatever course she chooses is between her and God. I have no place to command her about what to do with her own body. I have informed her of what the Church teaches and have left that ball in her court. If she chooses NFP, I will go along with that without complaining. If she chooses to use contraception, that is her choice and it is between her and God, and I will still be intimate with her as there is no sin in that, at least on my part.

I really feel for the women out there, this must be very hard. It seems as if the Church demands the impossible of us. Economic conditions are so brutal the idea of having more than two children is inconceivable to me, not to mention all the dangers pregnancy can entail.

I have tremendous hope in the mercy of God, and feel that much of the contraception going on among faithful Catholics is not truly mortal sin, because I highly doubt there is FULL and DELIBERATE consent or malice. I imagine most Catholics who use it do so grudgingly and under great stress and fear, quite likely mitigating culpability. I know the ideal the Church holds out regarding sexuality, and I also know just how often we all fall short of the ideal. Let us all never despair of trusting in the mercy of God, and let us never become too judgmental, especially on such horrendously difficult and painful topics.

What the people of the Church (including clergy and even members of the Magisterium, ie. bishops) are saying is not that the Church has been wrong for 2000 years. The Church has always proclaimed that one of the foundations of marriage is openness to procreation- yet this does not presuppose openness to procreation in every act, or we would all be breeding like rabbits, something the Pope has judged as irresponsible (to the chagrin of some traditionalists!). Moreover, what the Church has called contraception throughout the centuries refers to permanent (read: snip) or abortifacent methods (eg. potions) of birth control. What is going on is that contraception as we know it (eg. barrier methods, hormonal regulating pills) is a new phenomenon and has not been properly studied and considered for what it’s worth, but rather, it has been lumped with abortion and summarily considered as a done deal.

Either this is true, or the Body of Christ (with the exception of 10-15% hardliners) will go to hell.

 

[loumeland]

I have seen the term “cafeteria Catholic” thrown out several times here and there, and honestly, it is uncharitable.

When you flippantly call someone a “cafeteria Catholic,” you have unconsciously placed a barrier of separation between you and the bulk of the Church, creating a kind of elitism. The truth is that we have to take a step back and see what is going on- this forum, along with its participants (myself included) are not a good sample or microcosm of the Church as a whole (btw. This is illustrated by a few threads posted here which reflect that most members of Catholic Answers forum tend to demonstrate very similar personality types).

I have sensed a lack of charity over and over.

 

[Regina7]

Either this is true, or the Body of Christ (with the exception of 10-15% hardliners) will go to hell.

God did say the path to heaven is narrow.

 

[Regina7]

I have seen the term “cafeteria Catholic” thrown out several times here and there, and honestly, it is uncharitable.

When you flippantly call someone a “cafeteria Catholic,” you have unconsciously placed a barrier of separation between you and the bulk of the Church, creating a kind of elitism. The truth is that we have to take a step back and see what is going on- this forum, along with its participants (myself included) are not a good sample or microcosm of the Church as a whole (btw. This is illustrated by a few threads posted here which reflect that most members of Catholic Answers forum tend to demonstrate very similar personality types).

I have sensed a lack of charity over and over.

Do you have a better term for those who pick and choose what the Church teaches?

 

[Xantippe]

Do you have a better term for those who pick and choose what the Church teaches?

Buffet Catholic?

 

[Rico_S]

Do you have a better term for those who pick and choose what the Church teaches?

Is a label necessary?

 

[MomaMary8]

My point is, **it’s a lot easier for a man to be “open to life” **than for a woman to be. After all I, as a man, don’t have to carry the child in my body and go through all that entails. There is a profound difference between the sexes in this regard, obviously. Given this, I don’t feel entitled to tell a woman how to handle her reproductive functions. That is between her and God and is her decision. I see nothing wrong with taking this position.

I’ll tell my husband you said that. He’ll get a good chuckle as he was the one in our relationship that wanted ABC (vasectomy) after #5. He felt a great deal of pressure to support our growing family. All the guys in the office were giving him names of doctors…I had to be his strength during that struggle.

Well first off not all NFP involves charting and crunching numbers. The Standard Days Method and the LadyComp involve none of these things. Those are as simple as using an app or using a device to take your temp once in the morning and then going back to sleep. Ignoring the fertile days is a much bigger concern yes, as I’m sure many couples just don’t have the strength to abstain on those days. Note that women just as much as men may fall into that category.

If it came down to another pregnancy which would result in destitution, eviction, living on the streets and possibly death, verses getting on the pill, due to the couples lack of self-control, I think the pill would be the more moral option. And most sane rational people would agree with me.

Good thing morality is not up to you. I think the Church has a much more “sane” answer

But again, I’m not trying to touch this issue with a ten-foot-pole, I’m leaving it up to my future wife. More than likely she’s going to use contraception, because the thought of pregnancy at this point scares her, and though she’s an otherwise faithful and devout Catholic she doesn’t buy into this teaching at all. Yet if she chooses NFP I will do my part and abstain when necessary.

It sounds like neither of you are ready to marry. Spend some time in the adoration chapel and ask Our Lord to open your heart to His will. Right now you are following your will (and tossing the apple at your wife, saying she’s the one who told you to take it). As a spouse you are called to get the other to heaven. We cannot expect our spouse to go to Heaven if we simply turn a blind eye to their cross and offer no help in carrying it.

I appreciate your response. As someone who’s always struggled with fertility, miscarriage and stillbirth, I admit I get frustrated when I hear people complain about being too fertile. Just like I’ve been told countless times that this path is obviously God’s will for me, those who struggle with being too fertile should also understand that those children are part of God’s plan. And perhaps the intense struggle those have with nfp should, rather that revert to abc, which is never God’s will, just trust that God knows what he’s doing.

When I feel the urge to complain about my problems, I think about Mary’s fiat. She didn’t say, “But God, I wanted 7 children!” She lived a life of abstinence. She never complained that it was hurting her marriage with St. Joseph. Rather, she understood that following God’s will is ALWAYS better than what we think is best.

+1:thumbsup:

My current struggle is listening to moms complain about sleepless nights. I know they are tired and understand the exhaustion, but I so wish God’s will would have been to let my child live a long life. Instead his body is cold and in the ground (stillborn.). What I wouldn’t give for those sleepless nights, but that is not my cross. We can never compare crosses. We take what our Lord gives us and hopefully see the beauty in His will for us. Which I see, thanks be to God.

 

[bitterhope]

It sounds like neither of you are ready to marry. Spend some time in the adoration chapel and ask Our Lord to open your heart to His will. Right now you are following your will (and tossing the apple at your wife, saying she’s the one who told you to take it). As a spouse you are called to get the other to heaven. We cannot expect our spouse to go to Heaven if we simply turn a blind eye to their cross and offer no help in carrying it.

+1:thumbsup:

My current struggle is listening to moms complain about sleepless nights. I know they are tired and understand the exhaustion, but I so wish God’s will would have been to let my child live a long life. Instead his body is cold and in the ground (stillborn.). What I wouldn’t give for those sleepless nights, but that is not my cross. We can never compare crosses. We take what our Lord gives us and hopefully see the beauty in His will for us. Which I see, thanks be to God.

I am so sorry because I feel your pain. My husband has had a much harder time on the family planning front as well. Including when our twins were stillborn. It was something he couldn’t fix for me or the kids. Knowing how badly my arms ache to rock a baby in the middle of the night and struggling to accept that God has planned a different ending to my baby days has been a crushing blow.

Regina7, sometimes even abundantly fruitful Catholics share some of the same heartache you have endured. God is whispering His plans for us into our children’s ears but we wish we were whispering to them instead. That makes them powerful advocates for us, even if we wish we could just have them here instead. Sometimes trials overlap even ones seem to be too distant to touch. Often we do understand each other’s struggles more than we care to realize.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Is a label necessary?

That’s kinda how language works. If we wish to have a discussion then adjectives must be used. People have different experiences. I’m a convert Catholic. There are cradle Catholics, traditional Catholics, heck even the term Roman Catholic is a label describing a rite. Cafeteria Catholic to me is more charitable than, dissenting Catholic, unfaithful catholic, disobedient Catholic or ignorant Catholic.

 

[AnneElizabeth]

I’ve heard repeatedly that hell is the absence of God. We close our eyes for the last time on Earth and that’s it. Hell is no afterlife…

oooh no no no. No. This doesn’t even fit with scripture, except the part about hell being gotten rid of… I think Scripture says something about God in the end will do away with it and all its contents will be forgotten, however that doesn’t mean that its ‘nothing’. Absence of God does not mean absence of life- i.e. no afterlife. Absence of God is absence of hope, absence of hope is not a place you ever want to be. Its torturous. Absence of God is absence of love which is hatred… imagine a place where there is everlasting sorrow, hatred, pain, fear, torture. A place where the people torture each other- no real love- no real care- no real anything: illusions and continual disappointments, mocking, no peace ever… everything terrible and awful that happens here on earth, as a collective and its constant for eternity… it will never get better. Continual death. Continual gore. No safe place. No where to hide and get comfort. Its horrific.

Its true when it is said that a few seconds in hell would be enough to turn a person around and strongly desire to live a holy life… You will realize immediately what goodness we have here on earth now and seek to protect it, seek to glorify God for it. One will realize the opportunities allowed to us by God, the opportunities for choosing good… how much we take for granted here in this life… How much we take for granted God.

Please never think that hell is just ‘nothing’… it is not, I assure you. That would be a quite pleasant alternative.

 

[AnneElizabeth]

I have seen the term “cafeteria Catholic” thrown out several times here and there, and honestly, it is uncharitable.

When you flippantly call someone a “cafeteria Catholic,” you have unconsciously placed a barrier of separation between you and the bulk of the Church, creating a kind of elitism. The truth is that we have to take a step back and see what is going on- this forum, along with its participants (myself included) are not a good sample or microcosm of the Church as a whole (btw. This is illustrated by a few threads posted here which reflect that most members of Catholic Answers forum tend to demonstrate very similar personality types).

I have sensed a lack of charity over and over.

I agree… I would be willing to bet that everyone, if their souls were exposed would have one or two things which might not be in full agreement with the church’s teaching… Plus if someone ‘sins’ … are they not then being a ‘cafeteria catholic’ too? Its not like Christ’s teachings or even the Church’s teachings are always understandable or easy to do. That takes grace from God… we can try and do something, but ultimately if we did something that was a grace from God.

If I’ve ever used that term here on CA I apologize profusely now for it.

 

[Rico_S]

That’s kinda how language works. If we wish to have a discussion then adjectives must be used. People have different experiences. I’m a convert Catholic. There are cradle Catholics, traditional Catholics, heck even the term Roman Catholic is a label describing a rite. Cafeteria Catholic to me is more charitable than, dissenting Catholic, unfaithful catholic, disobedient Catholic or ignorant Catholic.

I can see that. Perhaps I was wrong.

It’s just sometimes irritating reading these forums where the, radical traditionalist Catholics and the militant “letter of the law” Catholics-- the self appointed gate keepers of orthodoxy–lump catholics into nicely defined segments. But I guess that’s just how language works

 

[loumeland]

I can see that. Perhaps I was wrong.

It’s just sometimes irritating reading these forums where the, radical traditionalist Catholics and the militant “letter of the law” Catholics-- the self appointed gate keepers of orthodoxy–lump catholics into nicely defined segments. But I guess that’s just how language works

Bingo.

 

[loumeland]

I agree… I would be willing to bet that everyone, if their souls were exposed would have one or two things which might not be in full agreement with the church’s teaching… Plus if someone ‘sins’ … are they not then being a ‘cafeteria catholic’ too? Its not like Christ’s teachings or even the Church’s teachings are always understandable or easy to do. That takes grace from God… we can try and do something, but ultimately if we did something that was a grace from God.

If I’ve ever used that term here on CA I apologize profusely now for it.

Finally, some honesty. We’re all exposed, and we’re all naked before God before whom night is as day.