Why do most people ignore the Church's teaching on contraception?

  • Thread starter Thread starter loumeland
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Thankyou. There are many, many heroic people out there enduring the harshness of life. I’ve been blessed with opportunities to be with others who look for all the world like happy, successful Catholic families… but are so despite their struggles and misfortunes. It is very humbling to be able to behold a person without judgement of them. Assuming the best in them rather than the worst for the purpose of esteeming oneself. It sounds like a well worn throw away Bible passage but contemplating it is of great benefit to a hardened heart. “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." Matt 7-2

I despair when I see conversations about NFP galvanised into the pro contraception crowd aligning with the ‘anti NFP unless you’re on your deathbed’ crowd… against the foot soldier Catholic trudging the hard road of authentic Church teaching.
I do not belong to either crowd. I consider myself (and my husband) to be more of the “come what may” family planning crowd, or to the “not really worried about it” crowd. With the knowledge I have of NFP, there is no way for me to have fertility awareness just go away, so even if I am not following a method, it does factor into choices we make. I am glad NFP, and fertility awareness in general, exists. But I think it is awesome for couples who have no need of using it! 👍
 
DING DING DING. I think the “primacy of the conscience” deals with just that - the Church says I CAN do this but I’m not comfortable doing it, so I won’t.
But doesn’t that conscience need to be properly formed? Otherwise the appeal to conscience is just a way to justify what we want when what we want is contrary to Church teaching–isn’t it?

The peace of Christ,
Mark
 
These are not the reason she asked about. She asked if limiting kids simply because they annoy you is a moral use of NFP. I was a person that honestly had that, and a few other similar reasons, for attempting NFP. I simply did not want a house full like I grew up around. My husband only has a sister so he wasn’t used to the chaos I was. We did not have money and I was determined to be a pharmacist and then put him through school to become an architect. We had big dreams! It was selfish thinking that way. Not the education and career plans, but the thinking that kids should take the back seat. I have confessed this to a priest and he told me that it is more common than people admit. He agreed it was sinful. He said he wishes more people would come to that realization.

There are times that NFP is moral, but muddying the water with the things you listed when a straight forward question was asked isn’t at all helpful. People are trying to grow in holiness. That’s why they come here to read these ridiculously long threads about topics that they don’t feel comfortable asking about in real life. I agree that it isn’t our place to try to determine someone else’s sins or intent or reasoning. It is a legitimate question she asked though and she deserves a straight forward answer.

Accepting a child when it is uncomfortable is how I grew spiritually. Even though I was used to the noise and mess and chaos, I wanted something different for myself. I tried to make it about my kids (they deserve better) and about my husband (he isn’t used to all this) but honestly it was about me. I was selfishly believing I was worth more than that kind of existence. I was too smart to stay home popping out babies. I was too tired to clean up after another kid. I was worth more than to wear the same tennis shoes with every single outfit. I had to admit all that to myself. I had to quit making excuses.

I’m not saying anyone else is self for wanting any one thing in particular. I’m saying for me it was selfish. It was prideful. I had to overcome that. So yes, I do think a person can very well use NFP selfishly and sinfully. Even if it did not work for me, that was my intent. When I talked to my priest he agreed it was sinful in my case.
Well said.

The peace of Christ,
Mark
 
I do not belong to either crowd. I consider myself (and my husband) to be more of the “come what may” family planning crowd, or to the “not really worried about it” crowd. With the knowledge I have of NFP, there is no way for me to have fertility awareness just go away, so even if I am not following a method, it does factor into choices we make. I am glad NFP, and fertility awareness in general, exists. But I think it is awesome for couples who have no need of using it! 👍
This is just a side point that I wanted to highlight. The phrasing ‘using’ NFP is a fairly modern approach to my mind. I hadn’t ever heard it phrased that way until coming online and hearing the Americans use it. When I learned NFP about 30 odd years ago, we said ‘doing’ NFP. Personally I think ‘using’ changes the concept of NFP into a product of some sort rather than what it really is… a life style. It’s like the difference between the weight loss approach of ‘the healthy lifestyle’ which is something done and ‘using’ a diet, which is basically a product.

So for example you say that you have a good degree of fertility awareness that you can’t unknow, so it factors into your choices regardless. At the moment you are taking the unplanned approach but you aren’t against planning in the future if necessary. To me that is still NFP. Whether you take the planned route or the unplanned route, you have adopted NFP and aren’t hostile towards it in principle.
 
Who has said you can only be using NFP if you’re on your deathbed? I may have missed that because I haven’t read that on this thread at all.

I’m not opposed to NFP for people that choose to use it. If it works for them I assume God has determined their reasons are well intentioned and in accordance to His will. I assume mine were not because it did not work for me. Now that my husband is wanting to avoid another child, we are abstaining.

I’m am very much opposed to couples being told they are doing it wrong when cycles return while breastfeeding, when a method doesn’t work it’s because they can’t control their sexual appetites, when they opt to forgo using NFP it’s because they don’t value chastity or responsible parenthood. When a couple is on their deathbed or has any other serious reason to avoid, total abstinence is the only sure way to avoid, so I think NFP or ABC in those cases is irresponsible. They should not take any chances. That is why we are completely abstaining ourselves, and neither of us is in a health crisis. We just know for us NFP isn’t going to prevent pregnancy. My husband doesn’t want to take any chances.

There have been people told on this forum publicly by experts that they are doing it wrong and that is why it doesn’t work for them. One thread was about EBF and the lady was jumped on by not just the expert himself but by many of his followers. This is completely wrong and a big part of why people lose faith in NFP. The original poster on that thread included. No, that was not me but I do understand why.

I have no interest in what another couple reasons is right for them. I really don’t see that as my place to determine how many kids someone else can or should have. I haven’t even been able to choose that for myself. God makes that determination, not me.

Yes, I have been selfish. Yes, people can be selfish. That’s because pride exists in this world. Each of us needs to check ourselves for vices we need to overcome. I have no interest in checking that for anyone else. I’m quite busy with my own family’s salvation to worry about anyone else’s.

I’m sorry if I offend any one here. It’s not my intention to do so. I have no interest in judging anyone else here or in real life. I’m not a saint. I’m a sinner struggling just as anyone else here on earth does. I am not blissfully unaware of how ugly life is. I’ve had quite a few bad experiences. Truth doesn’t change just because life sucks. Truth doesn’t change just because time does. Truth doesn’t change because of scientific advances.
 
Who has said you can only be using NFP if you’re on your deathbed? I may have missed that because I haven’t read that on this thread at all.

I’m not opposed to NFP for people that choose to use it. If it works for them I assume God has determined their reasons are well intentioned and in accordance to His will. I assume mine were not because it did not work for me. Now that my husband is wanting to avoid another child, we are abstaining.

I’m am very much opposed to couples being told they are doing it wrong when cycles return while breastfeeding, when a method doesn’t work it’s because they can’t control their sexual appetites, when they opt to forgo using NFP it’s because they don’t value chastity or responsible parenthood. When a couple is on their deathbed or has any other serious reason to avoid, total abstinence is the only sure way to avoid, so I think NFP or ABC in those cases is irresponsible. They should not take any chances. That is why we are completely abstaining ourselves, and neither of us is in a health crisis. We just know for us NFP isn’t going to prevent pregnancy. My husband doesn’t want to take any chances.

There have been people told on this forum publicly by experts that they are doing it wrong and that is why it doesn’t work for them. One thread was about EBF and the lady was jumped on by not just the expert himself but by many of his followers. This is completely wrong and a big part of why people lose faith in NFP. The original poster on that thread included. No, that was not me but I do understand why.
You have only for the first time that I’ve seen, actually said that you have a rare condition that makes you permanently fertile. Have you told the NFP instructors about that? I’ve been around NFP and nfpers my whole life too and that’s 53 years… and I’ve never heard of that condition in humans. It’s fairly reasonable to think that NFP instructors have not heard of it or come across it either. It’s like you are setting people up to cut them down. Just come out with the truth about why NFP doesn’t work for you. You have a rare condition that undermines all the normal signs and symptoms. That would give people a fair chance to actually understand you. Tell the truth in future instead of setting people up to help you and then accuse them of maliciously attacking you.
 
Who has said you can only be using NFP if you’re on your deathbed? I may have missed that because I haven’t read that on this thread at all.
Discounting serious reasons happens all the time on CAF, every bit as often (and probably more often) as the abuses you mentioned.

I had one happen to me on CAF a year or two ago where I mentioned that one of my serious reasons is that my mom had cancer by 41, and I’m almost that age myself.

I had somebody (and it might have even been you, come to think of it) tell me that chemotherapy during pregnancy wasn’t a big deal.

:eek:

There’s pretty much no situation a person can mention on CAF, without somebody telling them that it’s really no big deal.
 
Multiple testimonies on this forum point to the fact that NFP does not work. Abstaining within the context of marriage is never to be the norm but the exception (1 Cor. 7:1-5, 9). Contrary to the opinion of many here, St. Paul points to sex within marriage as the antidote for lack of self-control!
Self control is an act of free will and not a reaction to our passions. God Bless, Memaw
 
You have only for the first time that I’ve seen, actually said that you have a rare condition that makes you permanently fertile. Have you told the NFP instructors about that? I’ve been around NFP and nfpers my whole life too and that’s 53 years… and I’ve never heard of that condition in humans. It’s fairly reasonable to think that NFP instructors have not heard of it or come across it either. It’s like you are setting people up to cut them down. Just come out with the truth about why NFP doesn’t work for you. You have a rare condition that undermines all the normal signs and symptoms. That would give people a fair chance to actually understand you. Tell the truth in future instead of setting people up to help you and then accuse them of maliciously attacking you.
The very first thread I ever posted in on CAF was about unplanned pregnancy while trying to avoid. I went over all this then and have multiple times since then. I haven’t hidden anything at all from anyone.

I don’t consider myself as having a rare condition. I don’t know if I’m “permanently fertile”. I highly doubt it’s a permanent thing. I do know it isn’t something that is picked up on by MDs and other professionals that have looked over my charts. I know they have told me many things about female fertility remain unknown because for whatever reason we are all different. There are averages and a textbook perfect and then there are the rest of us. I’m prone to twin pregnancies and many other ladies throughout history have been as well. That to me is not a rare condition. It’s just how our hormones behave. I realize not all ladies have that “problem,” but I doubt I’m the only one. And I doubt it’s as rare as you want to believe.

I really don’t care if anyone says things to me. I’m not going to run off and get sterilized or take the pill. ABC is not an option for me. Unfortunately many other couples have gotten sterilized or switched to ABC because of the way they are treated. I was not the poster that was attacked by the Kippleys and their followers. I don’t think it is that unheard of for it to happen though and if they are willing to do it on a public forum imagine what is said in private. I know the things said on that thread are very much in line with what I was told and others related very similar stories.

It is a big factor in why women lose faith in NFP. It is turned around on them. They are the failure that can’t make it work. They are the problem. Or their husband can’t take a no because he wants to keep her pregnant. Or their fertility is compared to a rare condition. Either way, whether it’s her or him or maybe even both, it could never possibly be that the method is flawed or that the method isn’t fool proof or the method only works as long as your body cooperates.
 
This is just a side point that I wanted to highlight. The phrasing ‘using’ NFP is a fairly modern approach to my mind. I hadn’t ever heard it phrased that way until coming online and hearing the Americans use it. When I learned NFP about 30 odd years ago, we said ‘doing’ NFP. Personally I think ‘using’ changes the concept of NFP into a product of some sort rather than what it really is… a life style. It’s like the difference between the weight loss approach of ‘the healthy lifestyle’ which is something done and ‘using’ a diet, which is basically a product.

So for example you say that you have a good degree of fertility awareness that you can’t unknow, so it factors into your choices regardless. At the moment you are taking the unplanned approach but you aren’t against planning in the future if necessary. To me that is still NFP. Whether you take the planned route or the unplanned route, you have adopted NFP and aren’t hostile towards it in principle.
Yes, I agree with you. I only make a distinction because NFP teachers would acknowledge that our behavior constitutes “abandoning the method”.

Oh, and, the phrase “using NFP” is what I learned here at CAF. I only discuss this stuff here, and never with anyone outside of CAF. It is not a relevant subject for anyone else I know anyway. I don’t like the sound of it, and frankly, I agree that it makes it sound like a product to be used rather than a lifestyle to be lived.

For anyone I know in real life, I don’t know and don’t really care what they think about my family planning choices. They aren’t likely to know about NFP and they probably think we just don’t do anything at all, judging by the size of my family. That guess is closest to the truth anyway, and with it being so personal, I would never attempt to disabuse them of that notion. 😊
 
Yes. I think you did the couple asking the question (and the class) a huge disservice. The Church does teach us that we are called to responsible parenthood, that the decision to delay having more children is between the couple and God (you aren’t involved), and that NFP is absolutely a moral method for regulating births. People who have serious need to avoid need to know the effectiveness. Your quippy self righteous response more likely pushed them toward ABC then to some epiphany that they should have lots of kids b/c sex=kids.

Reminds me of a pre-cana class where we helped out. Among other things, we were part of a panel with other married couples where the class had the opportunity to ask direct question to married catholic couple of varied ages and backgrounds. One person asked “how effective is NFP?” Before anyone had a chance to respond, a couple on the panel who has been married 8 years with 5 kids and one more on the way pipes up and says , “It’s super effective…we never became pregnant unless we were trying”
On behalf of my wife and I, thank you for taking the time to attend that class. Having been there, you also remember the 10 minute conversation that my comment sparked on how NFP and contraception are NOT the same thing by different means. I also appreciate that you were not one of the ones rolling your eyes and sighing through section on why the Church teaches what she does. Oh, wait… do you mean you weren’t there?

My wife and I spent considerable time developing a balanced teaching that shows both the positives of NFP along with the sacrifices required. We went to great lengths to share the truth including “effectiveness” numbers, the science and research behind Fertility Awareness, etc. without sugar coating it. We talked about how NFP is not a drop in replacement for condoms or pills, because that it not it’s primary purpose. We were always candid that it isn’t always a walk in the park. We also talked about how the sacrifices required exposed weaknesses in how we as a couple communicated and how it sparked us to talk more and assume less of the motives of the other. But we were also candid that the friction was not caused by NFP, but rather issues in our relationship. We often used levity to talk about things people want to gloss over and start deeper conversations. If that drove them to ABC, then the fault wasn’t mine.

All that being said, it was comments like yours and others on this thread (non-medical NFP teachers don’t know anything, they are self righteous, frauds, quacks, etc) that caused us to stop teaching. We gave up Saturdays for several years and donated ever dime from classes to prolife causes and crisis pregnancy centers. Not the “profits”, but every cent. We paid for class materials out of our own pockets. We spent years taking a loss to teach people that resented being there. Listening to abuse about how we were brainwashed.

So if anyone wants to know why there are so few teachers out there. It’s because we all finally burn out when even faithful Catholics attack us for trying give back and teach the beauty of life lived in Christ.
 
Discounting serious reasons happens all the time on CAF, every bit as often (and probably more often) as the abuses you mentioned.

I had one happen to me on CAF a year or two ago where I mentioned that one of my serious reasons is that my mom had cancer by 41, and I’m almost that age myself.

I had somebody (and it might have even been you, come to think of it) tell me that chemotherapy during pregnancy wasn’t a big deal.

:eek:

There’s pretty much no situation a person can mention on CAF, without somebody telling them that it’s really no big deal.
I think sometimes people want to hear encouragement that it is okay to want to stop having kids, while others want to hear encouragement that it is okay to keep having more, despite the possible risks or concerns. I fall into the latter camp. But I can see that if a person falls into the former camp, that they would not like to be encouraged in the same way as I would like. That can be a tricky and delicate thing to attempt.
 
Discounting serious reasons happens all the time on CAF, every bit as often (and probably more often) as the abuses you mentioned.

I had one happen to me on CAF a year or two ago where I mentioned that one of my serious reasons is that my mom had cancer by 41, and I’m almost that age myself.

I had somebody (and it might have even been you, come to think of it) tell me that chemotherapy during pregnancy wasn’t a big deal.

:eek:

There’s pretty much no situation a person can mention on CAF, without somebody telling them that it’s really no big deal.
I looked back as best I could at the moment and haven’t been able to find a post saying chemo and pregnancy is no big deal. I did see where I told you that chemo and pregnancy is possible and has been done with no ill affect to the baby and some OBs are now advocating for going ahead with chemo during pregnancy, but not that it is an ideal situation or no big deal. I said that living a life based on fear of what may happen in the future is not the healthiest outlook a person should have. But in no way is that saying no reasons are serious enough to use NFP or that chemo is no big deal during pregnancy. I will go back later tonight when I have more time and keep looking but at the moment that is all I’m able to find.
 
Kptrs #574
I don’t mean to be judgemental toward any “real person” who has said these things. I’m just trying to better understand what constitutes a just reason to use NFP and what doesn’t, so I can personally avoid using NFP for unjust reasons
Humanae Vitae 10 states: “seriis causis” (serious reasons); HV 16 states: “iustae…causae” (just reasons) and “argumenta…honesta et gravia" (worthy and weighty justifications), as well as “probabiles rationes” (defensible reasons) and “iustas rationes” (just reasons).
tinyurl.com/7ja8eca

Natural Family Planning - Serious Motives
Answered by Fr. Richard Hogan, NFP Outreach

‘Serious reasons mean important, or non-trivial, reasons, deriving “from the physical or psychological conditions of husband and wife, or from external conditions” (HV 16). Just reasons are, likewise, reasons which correspond to the truth of marriage and the situation of the couple. It is the nature of justice to correspond to the truth. Both terms, serious and just, presumes there can be selfish, trivial or unjust reasons for using NFP, reasons not in keeping with the nature of marriage as a community of life and love.’
ewtn.com/expert/answers/n…us_motives.htm
 
I looked back as best I could at the moment and haven’t been able to find a post saying chemo and pregnancy is no big deal. I did see where I told you that chemo and pregnancy is possible and has been done with no ill affect to the baby and some OBs are now advocating for going ahead with chemo during pregnancy, but not that it is an ideal situation or no big deal. I said that living a life based on fear of what may happen in the future is not the healthiest outlook a person should have. But in no way is that saying no reasons are serious enough to use NFP or that chemo is no big deal during pregnancy. I will go back later tonight when I have more time and keep looking but at the moment that is all I’m able to find.
It simply isn’t your place to offer that opinion unless you were expressly asked for it. If someone who has no children really wants to have a child they might seek medical opinion about a eugenics issue and be reassured to go ahead. If someone who already has three children has the same worry, they have an equally legitimate reason to avoid future pregnancies. The factors involved are many and God gave people an ability to discern and a certain instinct regarding their marriage and family that noone… not one other human being on the planet… can trump by their own judgement.
 
It simply isn’t your place to offer that opinion unless you were expressly asked for it. If someone who has no children really wants to have a child they might seek medical opinion about a eugenics issue and be reassured to go ahead. If someone who already has three children has the same worry, they have an equally legitimate reason to avoid future pregnancies. The factors involved are many and God gave people an ability to discern and a certain instinct regarding their marriage and family that noone… not one other human being on the planet… can trump by their own judgement.
Ok. That’s fair. You also should not offer your opinion when not expressly asked for it.

Read the entire exchange about chemo and pregnancy on that thread. Not once did I say what I was accused of saying. I mentioned that a woman finding herself in a bad situation should not lose hope. I didn’t say it’s a good idea to get pregnant and then go have chemo or get pregnant during chemo or that if you end up needing chemo during pregnancy it’s really no big deal. I simply said that although it isn’t ideal, it can turn our alright so a person shouldn’t lose hope if they find themselves in a bad situation.
 
Ok. That’s fair. You also should not offer your opinion when not expressly asked for it.

Read the entire exchange about chemo and pregnancy on that thread. Not once did I say what I was accused of saying. I mentioned that a woman finding herself in a bad situation should not lose hope. I didn’t say it’s a good idea to get pregnant and then go have chemo or get pregnant during chemo or that if you end up needing chemo during pregnancy it’s really no big deal. I simply said that although it isn’t ideal, it can turn our alright so a person shouldn’t lose hope if they find themselves in a bad situation.
Don’t you like being accused of malice when you were just offering friendly advice? Does that ring any bells?
 
NFP by its very nature disposes people to its just use. People that strive for a chaste life and chaste marriage by using NFP should rightly be praised and valued for their witness just by that fact alone and their choices to space or even permanently avoid after a few children should never be subject to judgement by anyone else at all. If you suffer from scruples yourself it is wise to discern with a Priest as pensmama suggested.

Fr Richard Hogan of NFP Outreach makes a lovely observation from his experience …

With the increased use of NFP in recent decades the Church has discovered that the informed practice of NFP actually builds virtue. In other words, couples who have used NFP become unselfish by using NFP properly. Thus, the Church has learned that if authentic virtue is weak or absent at the beginning, using NFP properly instills it! Love is a choice in one’s will to give oneself to another. But that choice is founded on the recognition of the dignity of the other as well as the dignity of oneself (who would give oneself to another if one thought the gift worthless?). Therefore, anything which leads to a greater appreciation of the dignity and value of human beings fosters love.

The human body is the expression or manifestation of the human person. John Paul II speaks of the body as revealing the person and when we express God-like acts through the body, the body is actually a physical image of God. Pope John Paul II goes so far as to say that the human body speaks a language. (Theology of the Body series, as well as Familiaris Consortio.) Since we are created to act as God acts, and He LOVES, we are created to love as He does. Since we have bodies, and we express our acts in and through our bodies, God gave us a means of expressing love physically. Since true, authentic love is THE most God-like act possible for human beings (because it is the most God-like act), and since the body has the possibility of expressing this love, the study of those powers of the body through which we can express an intimate self-giving love will reveal more about the person and even about God than the study of other aspects of the human body.

NFP is the study and knowledge of the bodily powers through which we bodily express conjugal love. NFP, therefore, reveals the dignity of both spouses to one another. In revealing this awesome dignity, it fosters love as well as a deep and abiding respect in each spouse for himself or herself and for the other. It also builds an unbelievable longing to share the infinite goods of human life with others, i.e., with children. NFP then builds a respect for human life. With this respect in place through the use of NFP, any decision by a couple to try to achieve a pregnancy or to avoid will be made for a good reason. It is not that serious reasons are not necessary—they are. But, a couple practicing NFP after taking the classes and knowing the method, practicing their faith attending Church and receiving the sacraments, with an active prayer life, and conscientious about the religious education of their children, will, if they decide to avoid a pregnancy, have serious reasons. This is what was meant by saying that virtue results from using NFP. It should also be noted that NFP couples generally discuss whether or not to try to achieve a pregnancy every single month. This re-examination also builds a respect for life.

Pastors routinely try to persuade engaged couples to use NFP after they are married. Most engaged couples, however, will tell the priest that they want to avoid a pregnancy, at least for awhile. Pastors are very pleased if they are able to convince the couple to use NFP. As the experience of the last twenty or thirty years shows, NFP helps build marriages with authentic love. What happens is that the general attitude of these couples to avoid a pregnancy is contradicted by the specific attitude of each marital act which is open to life. Eventually the specific attitude changes the general attitude and couples often surprise themselves by giving life to more children than they ever thought possible.

Answered by Fr. Richard Hogan, NFP Outreach

Our lives are for growth in holiness and that should be through a daily exercise in self examination… not by comparing yourself favourably to those you deem to be more selfish by the superficial appearance of their life.
If it is virtually impossible to use NFP selfishly, then why is the line of “just reasons” even mentioned?

Regarding the bolded part, I’m not sure why you keep talking about this, but based on the way you chastised me a few posts ago, it’s hard not to interpret it as you continuing to try to convince me not to judge other. I’ll say it one more time: I’m not judging anyone’s reasons for using NFP as better or worse than my own, nor am I considering myself holier than others. I’m just trying to learn and understand this particular topic a bit better.
 
I looked back as best I could at the moment and haven’t been able to find a post saying chemo and pregnancy is no big deal. I did see where I told you that chemo and pregnancy is possible and has been done with no ill affect to the baby and some OBs are now advocating for going ahead with chemo during pregnancy, but not that it is an ideal situation or no big deal. I said that living a life based on fear of what may happen in the future is not the healthiest outlook a person should have. But in no way is that saying no reasons are serious enough to use NFP or that chemo is no big deal during pregnancy. I will go back later tonight when I have more time and keep looking but at the moment that is all I’m able to find.
I think that was probably it.

I know that medical treatment has improved over the past 20+ years, but having gone through the experience of being the oldest of three children when my mom had cancer, it would never occur to me to take the possibility lightly. There was at least a year when my siblings and I barely had a mom (and my youngest sibling was about 6 at the time). I managed to run the household (in the most basic possible way) on top of my school work, but my 6-year-old brother was pretty much left in self-care the whole time. Looking back, that wasn’t great.

Throw a baby and/or a toddler or two into the mix and you have a BIG problem.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top