M
- Status
H
Hadi
Guest
Adam is definitely not a rasool (messenger)…
but he may or may not be a nabi (prophet)…
but you can’t just say nabi= prophet …that’s not always the case
Nabi is from the root N.B.A ,we can derive many words from this root
Anba’a: to tell أنبأ
Anbaa: news أنباء
yastnabuinka: inquire you ويستنبئونك
and all these words are found in the Quran …
here the word “nabiuhum” i.e convery unto them is taken from the same root N.B.A
2:33 Said He: “O Adam , convey unto them the names of these [things].” And as soon as [Adam] had conveyed unto them their names, [God] said: “Did I not say unto you, `Verily, I alone know the hidden reality of the heavens and the earth, and know all that you bring into the open and all. that you would conceal’?”
so lingusticly , Adam is a nabi since he recived the names of these “things” from God (Anbaa أنباء) and told them to the angels(ANabahum أنبأهم)…but this stretches the meaning of the words derived from N.B.A to include almost all humans…
however,you will not find Adam mentioned as “Nabi” in the Quran…therefore,Adam in my opinion is not a nabi (prophet) …
but he may or may not be a nabi (prophet)…
but you can’t just say nabi= prophet …that’s not always the case
Nabi is from the root N.B.A ,we can derive many words from this root
Anba’a: to tell أنبأ
Anbaa: news أنباء
yastnabuinka: inquire you ويستنبئونك
and all these words are found in the Quran …
here the word “nabiuhum” i.e convery unto them is taken from the same root N.B.A
2:33 Said He: “O Adam , convey unto them the names of these [things].” And as soon as [Adam] had conveyed unto them their names, [God] said: “Did I not say unto you, `Verily, I alone know the hidden reality of the heavens and the earth, and know all that you bring into the open and all. that you would conceal’?”
so lingusticly , Adam is a nabi since he recived the names of these “things” from God (Anbaa أنباء) and told them to the angels(ANabahum أنبأهم)…but this stretches the meaning of the words derived from N.B.A to include almost all humans…
however,you will not find Adam mentioned as “Nabi” in the Quran…therefore,Adam in my opinion is not a nabi (prophet) …
D
dzheremi
Guest
I am saying that your idea that the word “nabiy” cannot be translated by English “prophet” or that English “prophet” does not convey both the sense of intermediary and of soothsayer is faulty. “Prophet” contains both those senses.
A “connection” with God is a little vague, don’t you think? You can have a connection with someone without acting as their intermediary, which is why I specified that I would like to know what specific message Adam conveyed from God, and to whom he conveyed that message. Plenty of holy men and women of the past certainly had connections with God, but not all of those people acted as intermediaries between God and humanity, as a prophet does.
Of course, that’s why I was apologizing. I do not mean to make you look stupid or anything like that, only to discuss why I do not find this particular argument to be convincing as of yet. I do not claim now nor would I ever claim to know Arabic better than you or any other Arab. Luckily for both of us, we’re talking about the fitness of English “prophet” (a word I know as well as a native English speaker as I suspect you know “nabiy” as a native Arabic speaker) as a translation of Arabic “nabiy”. What you have presented as disqualifying “prophet” as a translation for “nabiy” does not seem to disqualify it, as English also retains the sense of “reporter” (of the word of God) in its word “prophet”. If there is some other meaning of “nabiy” not yet explored here that would make it obvious as to why “prophet” is not sufficient or is wrong, I would like to know about it - from a native Arabic speaker such as yourself, who is of course the best to find it and explain it.
With regard to weak arguments, I said that arguments that hinge on Arabic being somehow special or not translatable in some respect or context are weak arguments (usually the variation we see here is that some offending verse from the Qur’an is a “bad translation”, even when multiple translations are offered showing that the verse in question is equally offensive in all of them). So that is what I am sensitive to on here and I may have jumped the gun a bit in my initial reply to you as a result. My apologies.
It is interesting that your co-religionist Hadi disagrees with you on that point. I hope you two will come to an understanding of what prophethood is (and isn’t) in Islam that will enlighten everyone in this thread.
M
meedo
Guest
I am saying that your idea that the word “nabiy” cannot be translated by English “prophet” or that English “prophet” does not convey both the sense of intermediary and of soothsayer is faulty. “Prophet” contains both those senses.
**Well, from the starting post of this thread it seemed that people defined ‘’ prophet’’ with prophecies. So i assumed that this is the dominant aspect of teh word aand as such said that nabi does not really equate with the word. From what yoou say now it seemed that there is not a necessity for Adam to have a certain prophecy about the future for him to bea prophet. **
A “connection” with God is a little vague, don’t you think? You can have a connection with someone without acting as their intermediary, which is why I specified that I would like to know what specific message Adam conveyed from God, and to whom he conveyed that message. Plenty of holy men and women of the past certainly had connections with God, but not all of those people acted as intermediaries between God and humanity, as a prophet does.
Well i am not talking about a moment of inspiration , Adam was created by God and lived in heaven , he saw the angels and was taught by God. I would say tha this connection must be a bit supernatural in a way that is not common for the religious or believing masses. Like forexample repeteive dreams and visions with commandements from God , or appearance of angels , or witnessing of mir<cles etc…
Of course, that’s why I was apologizing. I do not mean to make you look stupid or anything like that, only to discuss why I do not find this particular argument to be convincing as of yet. I do not claim now nor would I ever claim to know Arabic better than you or any other Arab. Luckily for both of us, we’re talking about the fitness of English “prophet” (a word I know as well as a native English speaker as I suspect you know “nabiy” as a native Arabic speaker) as a translation of Arabic “nabiy”. What you have presented as disqualifying “prophet” as a translation for “nabiy” does not seem to disqualify it, as English also retains the sense of “reporter” (of the word of God) in its word “prophet”. If there is some other meaning of “nabiy” not yet explored here that would make it obvious as to why “prophet” is not sufficient or is wrong, I would like to know about it - from a native Arabic speaker such as yourself, who is of course the best to find it and explain it.
**I am no a native English speaker. If prophet include a different meaning tha sayer of a pfuturistic prophecy then so be it. If you look at the first post, it seemed that this was what was implied. **
With regard to weak arguments, I said that arguments that hinge on Arabic being somehow special or not translatable in some respect or context are weak arguments (usually the variation we see here is that some offending verse from the Qur’an is a “bad translation”, even when multiple translations are offered showing that the verse in question is equally offensive in all of them). So that is what I am sensitive to on here and I may have jumped the gun a bit in my initial reply to you as a result. My apologies.
**Well, there are some things that are not 100 % translatable. **
It is interesting that your co-religionist Hadi disagrees with you on that point. I hope you two will come to an understanding of what prophethood is (and isn’t) in Islam that will enlighten everyone in this thread.
**weather Adam is a prophet or not is not importan to our theology. I would say that most scholars that i heared of say he is one. May be hadi hasa different opinion based that he was not specifically mentioned to be ‘‘Nabi’’ in the Quran. There are many prophets not mentioned in the Quran at all . That doesn’t deny their prophethood.
I think as far as the OP is concerned , his question seems answered.
**
D
dzheremi
Guest
People in this thread are identifying “prophethood” in one sense only, and hence like you they would be missing other senses. It is a bit of a moot point with regard to Christianity, as I don’t know of any sect or Church that teaches that Adam was a prophet in either sense of the word.
Hmmm. These must be Qur’an-specific accounts. I have never heard that Adam had dreams of commandments or anything like that. In the Bible, God is rather, hmm…direct with Adam than that.
It is not at least a little bit strange to you that those things that are not 100% translatable generally seem to concern violent or seemingly violent passages that Christians here ask Muslims to explain/defend? I will grant that there is never complete equivalency between languages even in the most strictly literal translations, but no language is so obscure so as to be make contextual (non-literal) translation impossible, so even those passages that are difficult should be able to be rendered in one way or another, with further explanation in footnotes. To simply say “bad translation; the Arabic Qur’an does not say that” and then dismiss the actual question of what the Qur’an DOES say is not intellectually honest.
Forgive me if I am reading too much into this, but doesn’t this challenge the authority or finality of the Qur’an, if there are facts outside of it that are pertinent to living Islam more completely? Did Allah simply decide that some things were part of the true religion, but nevertheless not important enough to be told to Muhammad? If that is so, then in what sense is the Qur’an complete? I had previously been under the impression that nothing outside of the Qur’an should be as trusted as what is in the Qur’an, so it would seem that having Islamic prophets outside of the Qur’an is problematic (because why wouldn’t they have been mentioned in the Qur’an? Is God trying to keep His final message to a managable length?). Or is this where the Hadith and other collections of writings come into play?
M
meedo
Guest
The Qurans mission is to guide people to God. This is the goal. It is no meant to be exhaustive account of everything related to history of faith in detail. I don’t think there is any challenge there to he authority o rthe finality of the Quran.
best regards,
Meedo
I
imasinner
Guest
Hi MACHIU
The link has two charts, one claims Adam as a prophet and the other does not. Having read Muslim response on this thread it would seem there is a difference of opinion amongst Muslims as to whether he is or not. I think most Muslims however would say he is.
It also explains the difference between a messenger and a prophet but frankly I don’t understand the difference between the two other than it claims a messenger is sent to a specific people with a “book” of scriptures by Allah (?) I know Jesus is considered a messenger as well as a prophet and his book was the Ingeel (not sure of spelling).
When and how are messengers given their particular book?
Mohammad at least was given 23yrs to write it down so I dont understand why some claim the Quran exists in heaven. Did the book come first or the messenger?
I
imasinner
Guest
Hi Eucharisted.
I have enjoyed reading you’re posting around the boards
and I appreciate all the links you provide.
I
inJESUS
Guest
i don’t care about anything other than the fact Arabs, and many Arabs, Christian and Muslims, admit that not all the Quran is of equal eloquence and that many passages are low standard and meaningless compared to other literary works, mainly pre-Islamic. If you don’t like this man’s honesty, go check Itqan fi Ulum Al Quran fror Suyuti and attack Al-Suyuti’s scholarship or attack the Al-Azhar shuyukh who admitted than many times in the Quran the content was sacrificed for style…in other words, good style but no content and at other times good content but no style…and please stop calling such a book God’s masterpiece…call it the word of Allah as much as you want but please refrain from calling it a masterpiece because an incoherent and disjoined and repetitive book with vague usage of words and pronoun and subjects cannot be called the masterpiece of God…am saying this for your own sake because the veil of perfection is dropping and your scholars are starting to admit.
R
rk9414
Guest
Can you post in Arabic where Suyuti makes such claims?
J
jakasaki
Guest
I found this site for you and it lists all of the islamic prophets and how islam views them as prophets. The information is way too much to copy/paste, so attaching the link for your review.
And according to this site, yes, Adam is a prophet of islam.
islamawareness.net/Prophets/
I
imasinner
Guest
thanks much
J
jakasaki
Guest
I’ve been reading the koran in regards to some prophets and it’s interesting that when you read the verses in the koran about them, you can see mohamad behind the writtings in addition to false claims about them.
For Noah:
If you read the Bible, only Noah and his family are saved from the flood. Noah, his wife and his 3 sons, Shem, Japhet and Ham along with own wives.
In the koran, the story changes and it claims that some family members are lost in the flood, like Noahs wife and son, but there are “some companions” of Noah who were saved.
It also claims that Noahs wife went to hell, perhaps for being unfaithful or disobedient to Noah.
There are also passages about Noah being “driven out of his land by his people”.
None of these are found in the Bible. But if you look at mohamads life and early “prophetic” call you can see his exepience in the koran passages.
Mohamad was always being driven out by “the people” when he started preaching and demanding everyone submit and accept islam.
Mohamads message is rejected by many in his clan, even his own uncle who is immediate family kept telling mohamad to stop. On the other hand, mohamad has a handful of companions and followers who believe in his preaching.
So, he tells his people that the companions of the prophet get saved. There would be no incentive to the companions if only the family got saved. That’s why mohamad put the “companions on Noahs” boat.
Why are Noah’s son and wife lost in the koran and why is the wife in hell?
Mohamad didn’t find faith and loyalty in all of his family and sometimes even his wives conspired against him. So, he gives a clear warning against them in the koran.
Being the prophet’s wife won’t help you if you don’t shape up and obey.
If you read about all of the Biblical prophets against the koran, you will find an enourmous amount of errors and twisted stories. And you read them carefully, you can see mohamads life experiences embedded the koranic prophets.
Just my observations.
For Noah:
If you read the Bible, only Noah and his family are saved from the flood. Noah, his wife and his 3 sons, Shem, Japhet and Ham along with own wives.
In the koran, the story changes and it claims that some family members are lost in the flood, like Noahs wife and son, but there are “some companions” of Noah who were saved.
It also claims that Noahs wife went to hell, perhaps for being unfaithful or disobedient to Noah.
There are also passages about Noah being “driven out of his land by his people”.
None of these are found in the Bible. But if you look at mohamads life and early “prophetic” call you can see his exepience in the koran passages.
Mohamad was always being driven out by “the people” when he started preaching and demanding everyone submit and accept islam.
Mohamads message is rejected by many in his clan, even his own uncle who is immediate family kept telling mohamad to stop. On the other hand, mohamad has a handful of companions and followers who believe in his preaching.
So, he tells his people that the companions of the prophet get saved. There would be no incentive to the companions if only the family got saved. That’s why mohamad put the “companions on Noahs” boat.
Why are Noah’s son and wife lost in the koran and why is the wife in hell?
Mohamad didn’t find faith and loyalty in all of his family and sometimes even his wives conspired against him. So, he gives a clear warning against them in the koran.
Being the prophet’s wife won’t help you if you don’t shape up and obey.
If you read about all of the Biblical prophets against the koran, you will find an enourmous amount of errors and twisted stories. And you read them carefully, you can see mohamads life experiences embedded the koranic prophets.
Just my observations.
B
Booklover
Guest
J
jakasaki
Guest
I also found an interesting hadith for you to review. This one claims that mohamad states that Adam is 60 cubits tall which is about 90 feet tall and any person who enters paradise will resemble Adams height and appearance.
Volume 4, Book 55, Number 543: - Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "Allah created Adam, making him 60 cubits tall. When He created him, He said to him, “Go and greet that group of angels, and listen to their reply, for it will be your greeting (salutation) and the greeting (salutations of your offspring.”
So, Adam said (to the angels), As-Salamu Alaikum (i.e. Peace be upon you). The angels said, “As-salamu Alaika wa Rahmatu-l-lahi” (i.e. Peace and Allah’s Mercy be upon you). Thus the angels added to Adam’s salutation the expression, ‘Wa Rahmatu-l-lahi,’
**Any person who will enter Paradise will resemble Adam (in appearance and figure). **People have been decreasing in stature since Adam’s creation.
Volume 4, Book 55, Number 544: - Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah’s Apostle said, "The first group of people who will enter Paradise, will be glittering like the full moon and those who will follow them, will glitter like the most brilliant star in the sky.
They will not urinate, relieve nature, spit, or have any nasal secretions. Their combs will be of gold, and their sweat will smell like musk. The aloes-wood will be used in their >s.
Their wives will be houris.(the virgins in Paradise to serve the faithful (men).)
**All of them will look alike and will resemble their father Adam (in statute), sixty cubits tall." **
Volume 4, Book 55, Number 543: - Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "Allah created Adam, making him 60 cubits tall. When He created him, He said to him, “Go and greet that group of angels, and listen to their reply, for it will be your greeting (salutation) and the greeting (salutations of your offspring.”
So, Adam said (to the angels), As-Salamu Alaikum (i.e. Peace be upon you). The angels said, “As-salamu Alaika wa Rahmatu-l-lahi” (i.e. Peace and Allah’s Mercy be upon you). Thus the angels added to Adam’s salutation the expression, ‘Wa Rahmatu-l-lahi,’
**Any person who will enter Paradise will resemble Adam (in appearance and figure). **People have been decreasing in stature since Adam’s creation.
Volume 4, Book 55, Number 544: - Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah’s Apostle said, "The first group of people who will enter Paradise, will be glittering like the full moon and those who will follow them, will glitter like the most brilliant star in the sky.
They will not urinate, relieve nature, spit, or have any nasal secretions. Their combs will be of gold, and their sweat will smell like musk. The aloes-wood will be used in their >s.
Their wives will be houris.(the virgins in Paradise to serve the faithful (men).)
**All of them will look alike and will resemble their father Adam (in statute), sixty cubits tall." **
S
Sister_Amy
Guest
Your observations are inconsistent with both Qur’anic accounts and Islamic history.
The wife of Noah, like the wife of Lot (who incidentally is in the Bible), disobeyed God by rejecting the preaching of her husband. So she was destroyed, and killed with the sinful people. That is opposite to the example of all of Muhammad’s wives.
The reason that Noah’s son was not allowed onto the ark is because he also refused the message of his father, and so he was not counted among the family of Noah but among the disbelievers who were destroyed.
The “companions” of Noah were a number of perhaps 80 people (according to some scholars though I don’t know the source) who accepted the message of Noah. Basically, Noah was preaching to the people, calling them to believe in God and obey God (basically, to be Muslim) but most of the people rejected it. Only a small number accepted it, and so they were saved.
Also, your observations hinge upon the assumption that the Bible presents the full account of a matter, and any divergence from the Biblical account is incorrect. An objective reader would not make such an assumption. If you take my view (notwithstanding that it is no less objective than your own), or even just observe my view, you can explore the possibility that the Biblical account is incomplete or flawed, and that the Qur’an offers truths and facts on the matter which have been lost or otherwise omitted, such as this very specific case about Noah, and many other stories also appearing in the Qur’an.
S
Sister_Amy
Guest
Women will receive houris also, and houris are not necessarily female.
Secondly, you seem to have left out the part about the people of Paradise being the age of Jesus.
- Status