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joebaydi
Guest
Well one can use human logic as a means to disprove his divinity, but we’l leave that for another time my friend.
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Damascus
Guest
I
inJESUS
Guest
what can they say? either Bible or Quran. Both cannot be true. If one is a Muslim, logic follows that the Bible “must” be corrupt; this is what they are taught since kids which makes it “worthless” to read the Bible; some even go further by rejecting to even “touch” a Bible.
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Mr.Ex_Nihilo
Guest
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Montalban
Guest
The interesting thing is when you try to actually get them to list the verses that aren’t corrupted! They can’t.
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Joseph_Alison
Guest
Salaam;
VociMike:
For instance, can you read anywhere in the Holy Qur’an that John, Mathew, Mark, Luke or Paul have been given scriptures from Allah? Of course no; however, we do recognize that some of the sayings or teachings of Jesus (PBUH) as long as some of the details of his life may have ended up into writing, which is normal with such a historical figure.
Salaam.
Joseph.
Do Muslims say the scriptures they are arguing from are the ones they believe to be corrupted?
For instance, can you read anywhere in the Holy Qur’an that John, Mathew, Mark, Luke or Paul have been given scriptures from Allah? Of course no; however, we do recognize that some of the sayings or teachings of Jesus (PBUH) as long as some of the details of his life may have ended up into writing, which is normal with such a historical figure.
If the “corrupted” texts can be used to successfully demonstrate that Jesus is far from being Divine, what can be said about the uncorrupted texts if those used for the demonstration are the corrupted ones?
Salaam.
Joseph.
I
inJESUS
Guest
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Joseph_Alison
Guest
I
inJESUS
Guest
inJESUS:
;
GAL 1:7 which is not another `gospel’ only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
GAL 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach unto you any gospel other than that which we preached unto you, let him be anathema.
GAL 1:9 As we have said before, so say I now again, if any man preacheth unto you any **gospel **other than that which ye received, let him be anathema.
Salaam.
Joseph.
Salaam Joseph, it refers to the “good news” taught orally by the apostles and not a literal book found with them since oral tradition was the means of spreading the good news .
‘Go ye and teach all nations’, ‘preach the Gospel to every creature’ , ‘He that heareth you heareth Me’. What Jesus commanded and meant them to do was precisely what He had done Himself : deliver the Word of God to the people by the living voice—convince , persuade, instruct, convert them by addressing themselves face to face to living men and women.
the Apostles at first never thought of writing the New Testament; and neither they did. The books of the New Testament were produced and called forth by special circumstances that arose, were written to meet particular demands and emergencies. Nothing was further from the minds of the Apostles and Evangelists than the idea of composing works which should be collected and formed into one volume, and so constitute the Holy Book of the Christians. And we can imagine St Paul staring in amazement if he had been told that his Epistles, and St Peter’s and St. John’s, and the others would be tied up together and elevated into the position of a complete and exhaustive statement of the doctrines of Christianity, to be placed in each man’s hand as an easy and infallible guide in faith and morals, independent of any living and teaching authority to interpret them. No one would have been more shocked at the idea of his letters usurping the place of the authoritative teacher—the Church, than the great Apostle who himself said, ‘How shall they hear without a preacher? how shall they preach unless they be sent? Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of Christ.’
All in all, it was oral tradition. Christian faith spread in the first century throughout many countries and each apostle used to visit the churches he was assigned to teach. It was later, and under specific circumstances, that the Church decided to compile the Bible.
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Montalban
Guest
They believe that the Bible has been corrupted and that they argue from the Bible (occasionally).
Yet Moslems argue from the NT for proof of Muhammad. For instance, that Muhammad was predicted - when the NT talks of the ‘helper’ (ignoring that ‘the helper’ is the Holy Spirit).
Do you want to run that by me again?
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Montalban
Guest
Gospel can be oral. First in the heirarchy of meaning on this site it says…
- the teachings of Jesus and the apostles; the Christian revelation.
dictionary.reference.com/browse/gospel
(the heirarchy of meaning is always good for judging the most common meaning of a word)
(II Thessalonians 2:15)
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Montalban
Guest
How do you ‘confirm’ a Scripture you believe to be corrupt?
5:47 Let the people of the Injeel (Gospel) judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed (then) such (people) are the Fasiqun (the rebellious i.e. disobedient (of a lesser degree) to Allah.
48 And We have sent down to you (O Muhammad ) the Book (this Qur’an) in truth, confirming the Scripture that came before it and Mohayminan (trustworthy in highness and a witness) over it (old Scriptures) . So judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging away from the truth that has come to you. To each among you, We have prescribed a law and a clear way. If Allah willed, He would have made you one nation, but that (He) may test you in what He has given you; so strive as in a race in good deeds. The return of you (all) is to Allah; then He will inform you about that in which you used to differ.
and again;
29:46
And argue not with the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), unless it be in (a way) that is better (with good words and in good manner, inviting them to Islamic Monotheism with His Verses), except with such of them as do wrong, and say (to them): "We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you; our Ilah (God) and your Ilah (God) is One (i.e. Allah), and to Him we have submitted (as Muslims)."
Muslims are to consult those who have the Gospels (because they/we are inspired)
21:7 And We sent not before you (O Muhammad ) but men to whom We inspired, so ask the people of the Reminder [Scriptures - the Taurat (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel)] if you do not know.
5:47 Let the people of the Injeel (Gospel) judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed (then) such (people) are the Fasiqun (the rebellious i.e. disobedient (of a lesser degree) to Allah.
48 And We have sent down to you (O Muhammad ) the Book (this Qur’an) in truth, confirming the Scripture that came before it and Mohayminan (trustworthy in highness and a witness) over it (old Scriptures) . So judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging away from the truth that has come to you. To each among you, We have prescribed a law and a clear way. If Allah willed, He would have made you one nation, but that (He) may test you in what He has given you; so strive as in a race in good deeds. The return of you (all) is to Allah; then He will inform you about that in which you used to differ.
and again;
29:46
And argue not with the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), unless it be in (a way) that is better (with good words and in good manner, inviting them to Islamic Monotheism with His Verses), except with such of them as do wrong, and say (to them): "We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you; our Ilah (God) and your Ilah (God) is One (i.e. Allah), and to Him we have submitted (as Muslims)."
Muslims are to consult those who have the Gospels (because they/we are inspired)
21:7 And We sent not before you (O Muhammad ) but men to whom We inspired, so ask the people of the Reminder [Scriptures - the Taurat (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel)] if you do not know.
I
inJESUS
Guest
the Arabic word says : BETWEEN MUHAMMAD’S HANDS and **NOT **“before it”…which means that at Muhammad’s time, scriptures were not, ahem, corrupt
don’t always trust their translations.
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pumpqeen
Guest
Reasons
1 - The non-contextual islamic Quran reeks mostly of violence and terrorism teachings and needs the support of other texts to validate its claims. That’s why there are islamic hadiths like the Bukhari & Tabari. Biographies of muhammad, basically. But they also show the dark side of muhammad, that’s why its only used very ‘sparingly’.
2 - Any texts that supports islam is considered pure. They can totally ignore a certain message in the same statement and use only part of it for their claims. For example, the bible says that the holy spirit abides FOREVER. Now, they can insist that muhammad was a ‘spirit’, but how do you insist that muhammad has abided FOREVER when the man has clearly already DIED.
3 - Muslims claim that muhammad was allowed to marry many and young girls cos Solomon had many young wives. What they did not know or choose NOT to know was that Solomon angered God with his marriages. Plus, having sex with a 9 year old is not considered pedophilia by them cos they claim it was CULTURE! Yet when you ask them how many other thousands of men during muhammad’s time ‘culturally’ married little girls, they could barely come up with even one.
The religion of islam is nothing but a useless piece of belief created by the arabs to control the minds of people with lower IQs. You can see this clearly by the backwardness of the believers and their abhorrence to secular knowledge & historical facts. And it is particularly effective on people who have nothing to their names and desperate for sustenance because it promises them life and great sex after this otherwise painful life. When you have nothing to lose and everything to gain (even if it is a hoax), you normally don’t bother with details.
Only truth and freedom can remove islam. That’s why muslims start the syariah courts to grip upon muslim freedom and deny them religious freedom and escape from islam. It is all an excuse to spread the fangs of islam on mankind. The next time you see a muslim, ask him.
IN WHAT WAY IS MUHAMMAD GREATER THAN THE OTHER PROPHETS? Sure to get some funny answers.
1 - The non-contextual islamic Quran reeks mostly of violence and terrorism teachings and needs the support of other texts to validate its claims. That’s why there are islamic hadiths like the Bukhari & Tabari. Biographies of muhammad, basically. But they also show the dark side of muhammad, that’s why its only used very ‘sparingly’.
2 - Any texts that supports islam is considered pure. They can totally ignore a certain message in the same statement and use only part of it for their claims. For example, the bible says that the holy spirit abides FOREVER. Now, they can insist that muhammad was a ‘spirit’, but how do you insist that muhammad has abided FOREVER when the man has clearly already DIED.
3 - Muslims claim that muhammad was allowed to marry many and young girls cos Solomon had many young wives. What they did not know or choose NOT to know was that Solomon angered God with his marriages. Plus, having sex with a 9 year old is not considered pedophilia by them cos they claim it was CULTURE! Yet when you ask them how many other thousands of men during muhammad’s time ‘culturally’ married little girls, they could barely come up with even one.
The religion of islam is nothing but a useless piece of belief created by the arabs to control the minds of people with lower IQs. You can see this clearly by the backwardness of the believers and their abhorrence to secular knowledge & historical facts. And it is particularly effective on people who have nothing to their names and desperate for sustenance because it promises them life and great sex after this otherwise painful life. When you have nothing to lose and everything to gain (even if it is a hoax), you normally don’t bother with details.
Only truth and freedom can remove islam. That’s why muslims start the syariah courts to grip upon muslim freedom and deny them religious freedom and escape from islam. It is all an excuse to spread the fangs of islam on mankind. The next time you see a muslim, ask him.
IN WHAT WAY IS MUHAMMAD GREATER THAN THE OTHER PROPHETS? Sure to get some funny answers.
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Montalban
Guest
He certainly had a lot of sexual stamina,
he seems proud to let this be known…Volume 1, Book 5, Number 268:
Narrated Qatada:
Anas bin Malik said, “The Prophet used to visit all his wives in a round, during the day and night and they were eleven in number.” I asked Anas, “Had the Prophet the strength for it?” Anas replied, “We used to say that the Prophet was given the strength of thirty (men).” And Sa’id said on the authority of Qatada that Anas had told him about nine wives only (not eleven).
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/005.sbt.html#001.005.268
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 6:
Narrated Anas:
The Prophet I used to go round (have sexual relations with) all his wives in one night, and he had nine wives.
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/062.sbt.html#007.062.006
also noted at
answeringinfidels.com/content/view/73/42/#_edn15
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murtad
Guest
Its impossible for Muslims to be our “brothers” and “sisters”, when these two words are explicitly used for Christians. Most Muslims are our neighbours though some Muslims (ie Islamists) can be our enemies.
Its true we should always love our neighbour as ourselves so we do not hurt Muslims as people. The Golden Rule helps us to avoid communal tensions while at the same time bring more Muslims into the Church.
Here you are plain wrong as Jesus did insult the beliefs of the Pharisees. Jesus went to the extent of calling the Mishna (which is the holiest book of the Pharisees) as Satanic.
Its important to understand that criticising as man-made both Mishna and Talmud is not Anti-Semitic, just as criticising the flaws and contradictions in the Quran and Hadith is not Islamophobic.
Since Jesus is the saviour of the Jews and Gentiles alike, so he had to condemn the Pharisees for inventing a myths and fables that they falsely attributed to Moses the prophet, known as the Oral Law.
Muhammad, the false prophet was no different from the Pharisees as he invented a lie, the Quran and attributed it to God. So, certainly, on the day of judgement, Jesus will condemn Muhammad as a liar.
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