Why do Muslims believe St Paul was a liar?

[inJESUS]

Conspiracy theories? Please.

what better name have you got to describe this thread?

 

[inJESUS]

Well, first, he did preach the same message as the other Apostles. Second, he did do amazing things in Jesus’s name. Third, his story does fit into the possible conversion scenarios.

fourth, he preached when eyewitnesses were around, fifth the apostles welcomed him.

Why would one *not *believe in what he preached alongside the other apostles?

 

[Sister_Amy]

Well, first, he did preach the same message as the other Apostles. Second, he did do amazing things in Jesus’s name. Third, his story does fit into the possible conversion scenarios.

I want to start with just his “conversion story,” if you will. Why should someone believe that? It sounds kind of fanciful, doesn’t it?

 

[inJESUS]

I want to start with just his “conversion story,” if you will. Why should someone believe that? It sounds kind of fanciful, doesn’t it?

well if you aren’t much into miracles, then yes, but his conversion and hence “claim” means nothing if his message/life/teachings opposed those of the apostles and hence Jesus.

 

[ralphinal]

I want to start with just his “conversion story,” if you will. Why should someone believe that? It sounds kind of fanciful, doesn’t it?

Depends. If you start with the possibility that there is a God and he is able to do all things save sin, no, it does not. If you deny that miracles can happen, yes.

But if we look at the before and after, he went from hating the Church to being one of the faces of it. If a man changes heart, why should he be denied?

 

[Sister_Amy]

Depends. If you start with the possibility that there is a God and he is able to do all things save sin, no, it does not. If you deny that miracles can happen, yes.

But if we look at the before and after, he went from hating the Church to being one of the faces of it. If a man changes heart, why should he be denied?

Can you see inside his heart?

 

[inJESUS]

Can you see inside his heart?

no but we can judge by his fruit and if the apostles considered him one of them, i don’t see how our knowledge of his heart would affect the fact that the apostles acknowledged him as an apostle, unless we start claiming that we know more than the apostles.

 

[ralphinal]

Can you see inside his heart?

All that I can judge is what he said and what he did. He changed his behavior and what he said. further, his words matched his deeds. I would take that as proof of his conversion.

He may have been a great actor, but he stayed in character the whole time.

 

[morning_star777]

Then let’s start with skepticism. Why should anyone believe Paul in the first place? Imagine you are alive at the time of Paul, a few years after Jesus has disappeared. Why should you believe Paul, when he starts preaching about Jesus?

About the red texts!I wanted to ask the same question about other man but I will not ask because here posters decided not to discuss about him

 

[cathopologist]

I want to start with just his “conversion story,” if you will. Why should someone believe that? It sounds kind of fanciful, doesn’t it?

Before Paul became Paul, he was Saul. As Saul, he persecuted the Church and Christians and actively sought out for them to kill them. He was himself involved in stoning Christians to death.

Before i became a Catholic, i was an anti-Christian. I never believed in miracles either. I studied in a Presbyterian missionary school, took Bible Studies as a subject, aced it but i still hated Christians. It was divine intervention that made me Catholic and i have my conversion story here somewhere in the forums. So if that could happen to me, why should i rule out St Paul?

This thread could be hypocritical if Christians didn’t stand up for Muslims who get abused from other Christians in this forum. Some of the thread participants have. I would love to see if a Muslim would do the same for Christians when radical Muslims mud-sling our saints. Seems like you have already chosen their side.

 

[swariffin]

I want to start with just his “conversion story,” if you will. Why should someone believe that? It sounds kind of fanciful, doesn’t it?

If I speak the shahada infront of your imam and in front of you, and thousands other muslims, but I still criticize Muhammad, will you believe me that I were a Muslim?

 

[KingAlfred]

“Many modern Muslim apologists mud-sling the saint for inventing Christianity. Some have also accused St Paul of acting out alone and had no interaction with the other disciples of Jesus.”

They view this aspect of the early Christian story as Christianity’s ‘Achilles’ heel’, if you will. They argue that because Paul never knew Jesus personally, yet wrote what later became one-fourth of the New Testament, formulating critical Christian theology therein, before anything else was written about Jesus, and because he evangelized the faith to the most important peoples of his time, the Greeks and Romans, Christianity as a formal religion, was ‘obviously’ more the work of Paul than Jesus. Again, since Paul didn’t know Jesus personally, Muslims believe Paul probably invented the religion. In other words, according to Muslims, without Paul, there would be no Christianity, certainly not in its colossal, institutional and internationally dispersed form.

 

[w_stewart]

If a man changes heart, why should he be denied?

Islam does not allow a sinner to repent. Once a man sins, he is to be punished cruelly even to the point of his death. The concept of forgiveness is germane to their religious tradition.

 

[paarsurrey]

Islam does not allow a sinner to repent. Once a man sins, he is to be punished cruelly even to the point of his death. The concept of forgiveness is germane to their religious tradition.

Hi

I think you have not studied Quran in the least. Never mind you may start it now.

[42:35] Or He can destroy those who are in them because of that which they have earned - but He forgives many of their sins -
[42:36] And He destroys them so that those who dispute concerning Our Signs may know that they have no refuge.
[42:37] And whatever you have been given is only a temporary provision of this life, but that which is with Allah is better and more lasting for those who believe and put their trust in their Lord,
[42:38] And those who eschew the more grievous sins and indecencies, and, when they are wroth, they forgive,
[42:39] And those, who hearken to their Lord, and observe Prayer, and whose affairs are decided by mutual consultation, and who spend out of what We have provided for them,
[42:40] And those who, when a wrong is done to them, defend themselves.

**[42:41] Remember that the recompense of an injury is an injury the like thereof; but whoso forgives and thereby brings about an improvement, his reward is with Allah. Surely, He loves not the wrongdoers. **

[42:42] There is no blame on those who defend themselves after they have been wronged.
[42:43] The blame is only on those who wrong men and transgress in the earth without justification. Such will have a grievous punishment.
[42:44] And he who is patient and forgives - that, surely, is a matter of high resolve.

alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?submitCh=Read+from+verse%3A&ch=42&verse=34

I think now the concept of when to forgive and when not to forgive is clear to you. It is very rational; if forgiveness could reform the wrongdoer, then he may be forgiven, but if the wrongdoer gets more encouraged then he is not to be forgiven.

Islam does not make one a coward; but wants that one should be graceful.

Thanks

 

[ralphinal]

Hi

I think you have not studied Quran in the least. Never mind you may start it now.

[42:35] Or He can destroy those who are in them because of that which they have earned - but He forgives many of their sins -
[42:36] And He destroys them so that those who dispute concerning Our Signs may know that they have no refuge.
[42:37] And whatever you have been given is only a temporary provision of this life, but that which is with Allah is better and more lasting for those who believe and put their trust in their Lord,
[42:38] And those who eschew the more grievous sins and indecencies, and, when they are wroth, they forgive,
[42:39] And those, who hearken to their Lord, and observe Prayer, and whose affairs are decided by mutual consultation, and who spend out of what We have provided for them,
[42:40] And those who, when a wrong is done to them, defend themselves.

**[42:41] Remember that the recompense of an injury is an injury the like thereof; but whoso forgives and thereby brings about an improvement, his reward is with Allah. Surely, He loves not the wrongdoers. **

[42:42] There is no blame on those who defend themselves after they have been wronged.
[42:43] The blame is only on those who wrong men and transgress in the earth without justification. Such will have a grievous punishment.
[42:44] And he who is patient and forgives - that, surely, is a matter of high resolve.

alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?submitCh=Read+from+verse%3A&ch=42&verse=34

I think now the concept of when to forgive and when not to forgive is clear to you. It is very rational; if forgiveness could reform the wrongdoer, then he may be forgiven, but if the wrongdoer gets more encouraged then he is not to be forgiven.

Islam does not make one a coward; but wants that one should be graceful.

Thanks

So if a thief repents and promises to steal no more, he is fogiven?

If an adultress repents and asks forgiveness of her husband and others, she is forgiven and no harm to her?

 

[paarsurrey]

Islam does not allow a sinner to repent. Once a man sins, he is to be punished cruelly even to the point of his death. The concept of forgiveness is germane to their religious tradition.

Hi

When did Paul and Peter asked for fogiveness fromGodAllahYHWH and repent for their sins? And when did GodAllahYHWH forgive them? Nor I find them making any formal confession to Jesus when they deserted Jesus or showed animosity towards Jesus and his friends.

I couldn’t find it in the Bible in word of Jesus; if you find any kindly provide the reference.

No disrespect is intended against anybody; we are disscussing things to find the truth.

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Buddha and Krishna.

Thanks

 

[ralphinal]

Hi

When did Paul and Peter asked for fogiveness fromGodAllahYHWH and repent for their sins? And when did GodAllahYHWH forgive them? Nor I find them making any formal confession to Jesus when they deserted Jesus or showed animosity towards Jesus and his friends.

I couldn’t find it in the Bible in word of Jesus; if you find any kindly provide the reference.

No disrespect is intended against anybody; we are disscussing things to find the truth.

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Buddha and Krishna.

Thanks

Yes, they were forgiven. If you read John 21:15-19, you see Jesus forgiving Peter

I should have asked if the people on earth would firgive those who repent or would they still be mutilated/killed for their acts?

If a husband does not want his adulterous wife stoned, are his wishes followed?

 

[Sister_Amy]

Have you ever heard the expression, “If you can’t beat 'em, join 'em?”

 

[Sister_Amy]

And when people say that Paul was preaching the same as the disciples, the letter to the Galatians offers an interesting note:

Paul writes, “When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong.”

I got the impression when I studied the New Testament, that Paul and the disciples did not agree, so, why should one take Paul’s word over theirs? Especially when it depends on his “conversion” story which I personally did not witness.

But if I were Paul, and I wanted people to believe me… then yeah, I would make up a story like that, because if people believed in Jesus’s miracles then they’d probably believe something like that.

 

[ralphinal]

Have you ever heard the expression, “If you can’t beat 'em, join 'em?”

So Paul chose to be beaten, imprisoned, stoned, and finally executed because he could not defeat Christianity?

Illogical and unlikely.

Besides, if he was not sincere, don’t you think the other Apostles would have shut him down? The other followers of Jesus would have destroyed his writings?