Why Do Muslims Have Problems With Paul?

[Cyber_Knight]

Lily, I saw you got a long lecture from J2006, I mean, freedomm. Did you learn alot from that points? if not, then we should learn theology like inJESUS woud do next year!

 

[freedomm]

inJESUS:

Hey freedom, again with Paul? what does your quran say ? …

And what is the topic of this thread? Paul or the Quran?

 

[LilyM]

Cyber Knight:

Lily, I saw you got a long lecture from J2006, I mean, freedomm. Did you learn alot from that points? if not, then we should learn theology like inJESUS woud do next year!

If were possible I would start studying tomorrow … in the meanwhile I’ve learned so much from J2006 … sorry, freedomm … such as … ummm …

 

[Cyber_Knight]

LilyM:

If were possible I would start studying tomorrow … in the meanwhile I’ve learned so much from J2006 … sorry, freedomm … such as … ummm …

I see you have learned alot how to whistle so far

 

[LilyM]

Cyber Knight:

I see you have learned alot how to whistle so far

It’s what I do when I’m speechless with exasperation or laughter … so I’m using it a lot around freedomm/j2006

 

[Reuben_J]

Jcaz, brother, thank you for giving us the Muslims’ perspective on Paul. I see that you are relying on those sites and I take it that they represent your own view on this subject. Since I ask for it, I have to accept that many Muslims too would take this view as well.

Sadly, those ideas contain many factual errors which inJESUS has efficiently removed with nearly surgical-like precision with so little words used. It all looks too easy.

If these are really the reasons for Muslims’ problem with Paul, shouldn’t we do a bit of rethinking now? After all, your assumptions are quite in error.

These are other statements that merit at least clarification, brother:-

jcaz:

He further “inspired” the church to utterly destroy all ancient manuscripts written in the original Aramaic or Hebrew language of Jesus (pbuh) and the apostles. He “inspired” them that the Greek and Latin manuscripts would be amply sufficient.

Surely the finding **that all ancient manuscripts written in the original Aramaic or Hebrew were utterly destroyed ** is out of the blue of the deepest ocean. I know this is the high point of Muslims’ contention – that Jesus wrote the injeel. There has never any evidence or sayings even among the early followers of Jesus that such ‘injeel’ exist. The only injeel there were, are the Gospels. But I would like to challenge you, if I may, to proof to us there is such injeel of Jesus and what it looks (reads) like.

jcaz:

Paul’s dreams, however, have broken commandments right and left. There is so much of what Jesus (pbuh) did during his lifetime that his followers have now totally neglected, not because Jesus (pbuh) told them to break the commandments, but because Paul would later tell them to break them upon the authority of the visions he was receiving.

This is in consonance with freedomm’ thought in the other thread. I asked him to tell us what commandment Paul asked the Christians to break? I would like to ask you now what commandment Paul changed that’s contradicting Jesus’ teaching? The eating of pork is debunked already. Other than that, what are the commandments?

jcaz:

Now Jesus (pbuh) decides to bypass his apostles and go directly to the worst persecutor of his followers on earth in a “vision” and give him knowledge not available to the apostles. Paul now reveals that God holds all of mankind responsible for the sin of Adam (Romans 5:11-19, 1 Corinthians 15:22). God himself, however, claims long before Paul was ever born that “The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin” (Deuteronomy 24:16) and “The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son” (Ezekiel 18:20)…etc.

This simply not true.

Roman 5:12 Sin came into the world through one man, and his sin brought death with it. As a result, death has spread to the whole human race because everyone has sinned… 15 it is true that many people died because of the sin of one man…

Now look at Genesis 1:22 …He must not be allowed to take fruit from the tree that gives life, eat it, and live forever. 23 So the Lord God sent him out of the Garden of Eden … 24 …a flaming sword … this was to keep everyone from coming near the tree that gives life.

Isn’t it true now that we cannot live forever because we cannot eat from the tree that gives life in the Garden of Eden? Is not Adam responsible for that? Otherwise why should we suffer the consequence of Adam’s sin? We should be in the Garden had it not been for Adam!

So what Paul taught is not new knowledge. It’s already in their scripture in Genesis.

Then you quote Deut 24:16. Your source must be hard up in the knowledge of the Bible, buddy. This is human law that states that children should not be punished for the crime of their fathers. Why, how ridiculous it looks when certain Muslim tribal law in Pakistan demands a sister of the criminal be raped to pay for the crime of his brother! So you can understand why Moses came up with law against that kind of practice.

jcaz:

Jesus never in his life saw fit to write a single inspired word. However, after he died, he started appearing to countless people in their dreams and visions and commanding them to write in his name and guiding their words. He did not see fit to guide their hands from writing conflicting versions of the same story (chapter two) since these contradictions were intended to strengthen a Christian’s faith.

Unless if this is meant as sarcasm, you are contradicting your Quran already. And my face is so thick, sarcasm usually just doesn’t sink in .

God bless, brother.

Reuben.

 

[Reuben_J]

Cyber Knight:

Lily, I saw you got a long lecture from J2006, I mean, freedomm. Did you learn alot from that points? if not, then we should learn theology like inJESUS woud do next year!

Hey guys, I think you all better do. Lily got tongue-tied by freedomm’s posts. We need to learn more about theology to be able to answer him, eh?

LilyM:

If were possible I would start studying tomorrow … in the meanwhile I’ve learned so much from J2006 … sorry, freedomm … such as … ummm …

Sis, you don’t have to drum that fact to him, do you? I think he shows some remorse since the last time as J2006. What d’ya think?

freedomm:

And what is the topic of this thread? Paul or the Quran?

Yes, man, you got them now. Give it back to them!

Thank you everybody for making this discussion very lively.

God bless and love of Christ.
Reuben.

 

[Booklover]

jcaz:

Let us look at this matter a little closer. God commanded the Jews to observe a very disciplined dietary regimen. This is where the Jews get the word “Kosher” from. “Kosher” refers to all food that it is permissible for a Jew to eat. Among those food that God forbade upon all Jews was swine. For this reason we find that Jesus (pbuh) considered pigs such filthy and disgusting animals that not only did he never taste their flesh (incidentally, Muslims also live out their lives never having tasted a single swine), but he literally considered them so lowly that they were only fit as garbage dumps for devils. In Matthew 8:31-32 we read
“So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters…”

Jesus would never have let the herdsmen lose so much unless it was for a very good reason. He wanted to show the immeasurable value of a soul! He demonstrated it visibly and impressively. Hundreds of animals were sacrificed to save one soul!

 

[inJESUS]

freedomm:

And what is the topic of this thread? Paul or the Quran?

oh ! so NOW you see a sentence irrelevant when all your posts are ? interesting, you are starting to learn how annoying it is to give irrelevant posts. But guess what, my post IS relevant…coz you, a muslim, is attacking Paul ( from a muslim perspective of course) , and i am using YOUR book to refute you. But even if you tell me , i took my info from non-muslim sources, then my answer is : did you check your book before ?

 

[inJESUS]

jcaz:

1. Jesus (pbuh) lived among his people for thirty three years showing them many miracles and teaching them to keep the commandments of Moses,

explained already.

to observe the Sabbath, to refrain from eating pork, to circumcise their children, to fast with the Jews, to worship in the synagogues, and so forth

explained. But i get your point…Jesus’ message was not abrupt, his teachings were not abrupt, and His nature as well…Jesus gave everything bit by bit…he turned the Old covenant into a new one step by step …the apostles fully understood who Jesus is AFTER the resurrection…thats why you see that they doubted while with him, and they did not believe the women when they told them He was risen…Jesus took it easy on limited people and taught with parables to make it easier for them…the NT is a flashback to what happened.

He did not do this with his words alone but gave them an example in his own actions.

correct, cuz Jesus was born “under the Law”, just like the prophecy says and since He was a perfect person, He acted according to God’s wish.

Whenever he spoke about his miracles he claimed that he did them through “the finger of God” and that he “can of mine own self do nothing.”

correct, but He told His disciples to do things in His name…why? to ask in Jesus’ name, heal in Jesus name, cast out demons in Jesus’ name ecc

Whenever he spoke of worship he would say “worship the Father” and not “worship me,”

He was worshiped and never said : stop it .

“worship the Trinity,”

trinity= God

or “worship us.”

us? who is “us”?

He also never said “I am a god.”

He did, in a less abrupt way thou, thats why the jews took stones to stone him. But hey, do you really think it was easy to say : hey i am God? no. Jesus knew what effect this has and he revealed Himself bit by bit.

The term “son of God” was used by his people for many millennia before him to describe a devout servant of God and applied in the Bible to many prophets before him and even to common people.

correct. But Jesus explained that He is the Son of God in a different way…
we did not interpret it differently; it was Jesus Himself who explained in what way He is the Son of God.

Further, God was understood by the people of his time to be the “Father” of all those who love him.

so God is the Father and people are His children according to Jews/Christians…why not according to mohammad?

1. For three centuries after the departure of Jesus (pbuh), his apostles and their followers (excluding Paul and his followers) continued the tradition of Jesus (pbuh) as faithful Jews and followers of the law of Moses (pbuh).

why did you exclude Paul? what did Paul do AGAINST Jesus’ teachings?

None of these people, not even Paul, had ever heard of a “Trinity.”

as a “word” no, but as a concept yes…don’t forget that the NT is not a doctrinal book coz the apostles did not intend to write a Bible to all Christians…what we have are their testimonies & letters to their friends and churches.

Jesus (pbuh) decided not to reveal his (and God’s) “true” nature until three centuries after his departure.

3 centuries? the doctrine is there in the Bible…it took time to put the doctrine in words to facilitate its teaching.

He decided that three centuries after his departure it would be time to come to the church and give them divine “inspiration” to “insert” verses in the Bible validating the “Trinity” (such as 1 John 5:7).

the verse was added on the margin as explanation to the original one…you might question “who” added the explanation in the margin but you cannot say the “meaning” changed cuz even if you cancel it, the message is the same…thats why you do not find it in all the Bibles…
it is no secret

Jesus also “inspired” them to utterly destroy all Gospels written before this fourth century which did not teach this “true” nature of Jesus as being God.

oh sarcasm…as if Allah ordered Uthman to burn all the qurans at his time right? and what burning may i ask? as far as i know, the acopryphal bibles are there for anyone to read.

 

[inJESUS]

He further “inspired” the church to utterly destroy all ancient manuscripts written in the original Aramaic or Hebrew language of Jesus (pbuh) and the apostles.

what? they were lost cuz of persecution and burnt cities.

He “inspired” them that the Greek and Latin manuscripts would be amply sufficient. And finally, he “inspired” them to launch a massive campaign of “inquiry” to “cleanse” the earth of all remaining Unitarian Christians or convert them.

here you are merely babbling.

. He admits that:
“For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews’ religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it” Galatians 1:13

yes, before he converted…unlike mohammad who became who he were after his “encounter” with a “spirit”. Before knowing Jesus, Paul was like mohammad. ( sorry, not that bad, but at least on the killing part )

Now Jesus (pbuh) decides to bypass his apostles and go directly to the worst persecutor of his followers on earth in a “vision” and give him knowledge not available to the apostles

eh?? not available??

. Paul now reveals that God holds all of mankind responsible for the sin of Adam

what does Paul have to do with this? it is written in Genesis & Jesus Himself affirmed it!
more on this in a mn, i’ll quote a paragraph so it will be clearer.

 

[inJESUS]

The doctrine that the human heart is profoundly corrupt is abundantly clear in the teachings of Jesus. For example, the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5 is addressed to His own disciples, yet in Matthew 7:11, again still talking to his disciples Jesus assumes that all his hearers are evil, saying, “If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children…”!

In Matthew 15:19 Jesus provides a devastating assessment of the human heart, remarking, “For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, then false testimony, slander.” The same teaching, in a slightly more forceful tone, is found in Mark 7:20-23. What is interesting about these two passages is the corollary teaching by Jesus that physical cleanliness has nothing to do with spiritual purity.Again, how are we to interpret the remark by Jesus in Mark 10:18, where he states, “…No-one is good-except God alone,” if not that every human being is corrupt?

What is Jesus about when he does miracles or exorcisms, but reversing the effect of original sin. In fact much of the focus of Jesus’ ministry was towards sinners. Thus in Mark 2:17, while being questioned by his disciples concerning why he should be eating with Levi, the tax-collector, considered to be a sinner, Jesus replied, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” This passage parallels Matthew 9:13 when he remarks that he has not come to call the righteous but sinners. Christians understand this to mean that none are righteous. It is safe to say that Jesus’ whole ministry was to restore that which was broken by sin.

Possibly the key chapter on original sin is that found in the book of John chapter 3 where Jesus tells Nicodemus that in order for any man to see the Kingdom of God he must be “born again” (verse 3). The question needs to be asked, why does a man have to be born again? What is wrong with his first birth? Obviously, the condition of humanity in their present state was not good enough. The answer is found a few verses later when Jesus declares, “I tell you the truth, unless a man is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit” (verses 5 & 6). Echoing what we find later in Paul’s letter to the Romans, we find Jesus attesting to the sinful nature of the flesh (brought about by the introduction of sin in the world which we read about both in the Bible, in Genesis chapter 3). The implication here is that the fleshly nature (original sin) must be replaced with God’s pure nature given to us by the Spirit.

So we see that Jesus spoke often of the sinfulness of humanity…which means it simply isn’t true that the idea of original sin is created by Paul.

 

[inJESUS]

by the way, in the quran as well Adam was expelled from heaven cuz of his sin…why don’t muslims believe in original sin? thx.

 

[inJESUS]

.

The example in the Bible is when Jesus accepted worship. The angels are commanded to worship him in Hebrews 1:6. Thomas, one of the disciples, when shown the wounds of the crucifixion bowed down in worship in John 20:28, and the two Marys outside the tomb, when met by Jesus, “came to him, clasped his feet and worshipped him,” Matthew 28:9.

It is clear that if Jesus accepted worship then this culdn’t have been an idea which was created by Paul…i gave 2 examples from John and Matthew as well.

 

[inJESUS]

regarding Paul and Jesus’ deity and trinity, donno where to begin from…but the idea is that it was not only written in Paul’s letters but John , Luke , Matthew , Marc and Peter’s as well.

 

[George_Waters]

freedomm:

No book of ancient times has come down to us exactly as it left the hands of its author–all have been in some way altered.

Do you apply this statement to the Quran as well or just to the Bible?

 

[George_Waters]

freedomm:

And what is the topic of this thread? Paul or the Quran?

Oh look who’s trying to claim the high ground now?!?! What a joke!

 

[discipleofJesus]

Here are some articles that should be helpful

‘Was Paul the Founder of Christianity?’
by Avi Snyder
jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/3_4/paul

‘How “non-Jesus” was Paul, really?’
by Glenn Miller
christian-thinktank.com/muslix.html

 

[murtad]

freedomm:

Dear LilyM,
Your above claim is based on an assumption that whatever is in your New Testament is true and inspired word of God/Holy Spirit.

Eventhough you replied to LilyM, I am replying to your comment because of your gross ignorance on the Christian faith and Islamism.

Even Islamist claim that the Quran is true is actually backed by the Hadith, the 1000-year old Tradition of the Ummah. So, if Islamists do not seperate Quran from Hadith, why should Christians seperate Bible from Tradition?

So you can see Islamism and the Christian faith have Protestants. A Protestant Muslim denies Hadith (and Pro-Universal comes into my mind for he denies the authority of Islamic Tradition while a Protestant Christian denies Holy Tradition of the Church. Both are not true to their faith.

Catholic Church teaches that Protestants are Edom meaning those who hate their birth right, while Catholics are Israel meanings those who love their birth right.

freedomm:

To these causes may be added, in regard to the Scriptures, exegetical difficulties and dogmatical controversies. To exempt the scared writings from ordinary conditions a very special providence would have been necessary, and it has not been the will of God to exercise this providence. More than 150,000 different readings have been found in the older witnesses to the text of the New Testament–which in itself **is a proof ** that Scriptures are not the only, nor the principal, means of revelation

. [/INDENT]
newadvent.org/cathen/14530a.htm#IV ]

See how you misquote the Catholic Encyclopedia? This part of the encyclopedia is talking about Protestants and why Sola-Scriptura is wrong. I am amazed how you distort the innocent words of the enclopedia to claim the Bible is corrupt! Even Islamists make it compulsory for their members to follow both the Quran and Sunnah. Does following the Sunnah make the Quran corrupt?

freedomm:

Did you notice how the alteration and unreliability of the text of the **New Testament ** is conveniently “justified” by saying “that Scriptures are not the only, nor the principal, means of revelation”?

Even Quranic text is unreliable. If you honestly read the article available at this link and this link, you will find proof that the Quranic text was originally corrupt and there were many differing versions. The Caliph Uthman ordered all the versions to be burnt, except his own ALTERED choice that was very different from the original Quran of Muhammad. This is very undemocratic!

freedomm:

Your Church/Bible Scholars had to come up with some “solution” to the unauthenticity of the NT. Now you are basically at the mercy of Church’s traditions because your Bible does not contain full deposits of your faith.

You are talking nonsense. Did you know that you, Muslims are also at mercy at your Sunnah or Hadith books. Take away the Sunnah or Hadith books, Islam itself dies as Quran-only Islam (aka Protestant Islam) is very schismatic and you find people who question the Quran itself! Dr Rashad Khalifa, a Quran-only Muslim who proclaimed a Code 19 Miracle in the Quran, removed 2 verses (Ayat) from the Quran on grounds these 2 verses were fabrigated by the Sunnis. So, we have many Quranic texts in the market.

 

[Reuben_J]

discipleofJesus:

Here are some articles that should be helpful

‘Was Paul the Founder of Christianity?’
by Avi Snyder
jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/3_4/paul

‘How “non-Jesus” was Paul, really?’
by Glenn Miller
christian-thinktank.com/muslix.html

Thanks for the articles. There are some useful arguments about Paul not contradicting Jesus. And the writer concludes with this:

**Are the teachings of Jesus and those of Paul in harmony with one another? We believe they are. Are these teachings inconsistent with the teachings of the Hebrew Scriptures? We believe they are not. - Avi Snyder, the European Director of Jews for Jesus. **

Look like to me Muslims’ problems with Paul has been nicely solved.