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thistle
Guest
Okay, so you are an Agnostic.
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Hokomai
Guest
I don’t call myself that either. I try not to believe in anything. I just try to conclude o evidence. Agnosticism is about belief. But my point is not about what to call me. My point was about what you call people. You asked me about this and I explained.
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Hokomai
Guest
Thanks for your kind words. I don’t put forward a particular set of beliefs so I am not sure my ‘philosophy’ has a name. Also I keep changing bits of it as I think about what others have said or things I have read. ‘Unbeliever’ is ok with me, although it is sometimes used in a pejorative way by believers.
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Hokomai
Guest
Can I skip the leprosy? 
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Tsuwano
Guest
Are you trying to say that an athiest can’t be a libertarian?
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Trevor_Stamm
Guest
No. Was making the point that true atheism, when it is taken to it’s logical end, will always end up as Communism. I think the very person who created the Communist Manifesto made that point clear.
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nonsumd
Guest
Trevor, I cannot deny that you make a compelling case. Indeed, I do need to understand this line from the Catechism in light of the words of other equally infallible decrees and, of course, of the Gospels themselves.
However, it cuts both ways. Lateran IV’s rendition of “extra ecclesiam nulla salus” must be reconciled against such statements as:
I agree with you that the ordinary (that is, ordained) means to salvation is “formal,” “visible” membership in the Catholic Church, but I believe that God allows for extraordinary means by which the saving grace of Christ’s sacrifice may be extended to those who are not members of the Catholic Church in a formal, visible way.
Many, through no fault of their own, do not know the Church to be what she claims to be, and yet still seek to live lives in conformity to God’s will as they sincerely understand it. God’s grace is working in such people’s lives. How can such people be categorically denied salvation since God has chosen to give them grace and they have responded to it? That such saving grace is not channeled through the ordinary channel of the visible Church does not mean that it is any less the fruit of Christ’s redemptive sacrifice.
Trevor, I am just curious – do you consider Orthodox and Protestants excluded from salvation solely on the basis of being out of communion with Rome?
I think our debate turns on our differing definitions of “invincible ignorance.”
We agree at least that “never having been exposed to the Gospel (due to isolation from representatives of the Church)” constitutes “invincible ignorance.”
You suggest that invincible ignorance may apply in cases of those deeply traumatized by clerical sexual abuse. I too believe we should consider those who reject the Church for this reason to be “in God’s [merciful] hands.”
Poor evangelization and the poor example of Catholics do throw up great obstacles to people taking the path into the Church. It sounds to me that you consider those who do not overcome such obstacles as lacking in the will to do so. I would argue rather that they have not been given the grace to do so.
As I have said, I do believe many of those who reject the Church’s claims for herself because they wish to evade the Church’s moral teachings. However, I do not believe this is true in all cases: some simply cannot give intellectual assent to the Church’s claims – their motive is clearly not rebellion against God’s will because in the way they live their lives it is evident that they seek to follow God’s will.
P.S. as for the “few” entering the narrow gate unto the straight path… I have always read this verse as Jesus challenging us to pursue a radical transformation of our lives. It is strong language meant to challenge us out of moral complacency but not a literal description of how many or how few will find salvation. Can we not hope and pray that “many” rather than “few” will be saved?
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Trevor_Stamm
Guest
Agreed.
Agreed.
But remember, as I made the same exact argument in another thread, the person must fullfil the conditions (three in all) for salvation outside the Church to be able. One, through no fault of their own (invincibly ignorance) not know who Christ is and His Church. Two, seek God with a sincere heart. Three, try in their actions to do His will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience. Violation of any of these conditions foregoes salvation to be possible for the person. Condition one can be violated by knowing of Christ and the Church’s basic evangelizing message and not upholding moral obligation to investigate. Condition two is violated just by being an atheist, that much is clear. Condition three is violated by acting against the objective moral law written into the hearts of every man and woman such as murder, rape, great amounts of theft, etc…
As far as orthodox out of communion, it’s tuff. They have valid yet illicit succession of bishops, so all they’re sacraments are valid and pretty much do and believe almost everything the Church teaches, but will not submit to the authority of the Roman Pontiff. I’m not sure I want to touch that, to many corners I have not investigated concerning out of communion orthodox churches.
Protestants are different. None of them have any valid bishops (not sure if any of them have any bishops, save the Anglicans) and therefore no way to access the sacraments, save baptism. To stay orthodox and strict to dogma, the unbaptized protestants have no means of salvation, I can’t sugar coat that one being such fundamentalists they’d know the necessity of baptism just by reading the Gospel they claim is the sole authority. The baptized ones, it really is a thin line, I’ll just say it’s situational and leave it at that.
Well, on the endeavor to truth it must first be an act of the will. One is certainly moved by grace once knowing Christ and his Church, but the will must follow.
We can at least agree that these types play a dangerous game, one of which invincible ignorance is seriously jeopardized if not lost.
It could mean that, or it could mean both of our interpretations. Forgive me if I choose to stay literal here, to me the language doesn’t leave much room for anything else.
I pray for the conversion of all in the world all the time, the divine mercy chaplet is key for this sort of prayer. Does not mean it will happen
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Trevor_Stamm
Guest
I concede then, but not on the point you drew though it did have an impact. Further contemplation on the subject forced me to acknowledge there are some true atheists who rather live in a republic capitalist society to fulfill one’s material desires and want equal rights for all so they many share the same rights as theists. I should rather say radical/militant transhuman atheistic revolutionaries will always lead to Communism, as they see religion and any sort of hierarchy as a threat and hindrance to the human genus.
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Tsuwano
Guest
Does this mean that theism, when taken to its logical end, always ends up as Capitalism?
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John_Paul_Jones
Guest
It’s not that all atheists would happily embrace communism. The problem is that some atheist (who are were sufficiently purist in their ideals) might have a difficult time understanding why a communistic gov’t’s anti-religiousness policies are particularly evil. And if a particular purist atheist was a communist he might implement those policies.
Most of the Founding Fathers were Deist, a few were Freemasons, and Stalin was an allegedly a Freemason.
Most of the Founding Fathers were Deist, a few were Freemasons, and Stalin was an allegedly a Freemason.
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sedonaman
Guest
I think we first need to have them explain what “Messiah” means to Islam.
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SiLeb
Guest
Muslims do believe that Jesus was born from the Virgin Mary and they also believe in the second coming of Jesus. I have heard this first hand from an Iman.
Having these beliefs I don’t understand how they cannot see Jesus as God.
Having these beliefs I don’t understand how they cannot see Jesus as God.
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Hokomai
Guest
That’s the good thing about beliefs. You can have them in any combination you like.
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Augustine3
Guest
Muslims believe Jesus will come again to correct all who believe He is God, he will proclaim Himself as merely a prophet of Allah. He will also destroy all crosses and proclaim Islam to be the true faith.
Brother in Christ,
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Auzer
Guest
If you read Qur’an with understanding , you would know that God curses Satan on many places. Muhammad (S.A.W) told us to respect other religions too …
1.8 billion and increasing,Mashallah
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Auzer
Guest
Muslims believe that Jesus was the Messiah…The Christ. Muslims,however,don’t believe that Jesus was God.
**According to Muslims : ** Prophet Muhammad brought the new law. Muhammad (SAW) was last prophet to mankind from God. Qur’an is the last book of God towards mankind. Bible (Torah and New testament) got corrupted by the pens of men. Allah (God in English) sent Prophet Muhammad for the restoration of the previous message. Qur’an supersedes all previous scriptures. Qur’an serves as a ‘standard’ or ‘protector’ for the previous scriptures. What Qur’an confirms of previous scriptures is true. Where previous scriptures seem to contradict Qur’an …people should ignore those passages and understand that those passages are the ones corrupted by human beings. Jews believe that Torah can be “abrogated” …this is where Muslims and Jews have their main ‘disagreement’ .
I hope I helped and not by offending you
I know I’m a bit late though 
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sedonaman
Guest
What does “Messiah” mean in Islam?
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jakasaki
Guest
I wish I had a dollar every time you asked this question but never got an answer.
Who knows, perhaps the poster will reply.
Merry Christmas SedonaMan…
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Bev17243
Guest
incorrect. When Mohammed first declared himself a prophet of Allah, he had trouble getting followers. Thats when the first part of Quran was written, the one that talks about peace, love and forgivness. Mohammed was a warrior however, who lived by the sword and when he concured the tribes, many of them didn’t wish to accept Quran and his revelations voluntarily. That’s when he had some more revelations(after Medina) which ABROGATE the earliest peaceful ones. And the latest verses are the ones where he talks about having no mercy on infidels, no taking them as friends, you know-all the fun stuff. So facing death and eradication many hurriedly accepted Islam. As for Jesus-they claim to recognize him as prophet although Mohammed is supposed to have been “greater” one(you might want to read Quran and Bible to see where the truth lies) and that “Jesus” is supposed to return as Mahdi(Messiah) and eradicate all religions but Islam.If you read Qur’an with understanding , you would know that God curses Satan on many places. Muhammad (S.A.W) told us to respect other religions too …
1.8 billion and increasing,Mashallah
If Mahdi is going to come as many Muslims believe, I can assure u it aren’t gonna be Jesus
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