Why do non catholics dislike Mother Mary?

[AmericanJosiah]

ABOUT MARY

 No Protestant I know dislikes Mary!

Me, neither.

Come to think of it, I don’t know ANYONE who dislikes Her. Buddhist, Muslim, Taoist, Hindu, Jew, agnostic, atheist. Anyone.

Maybe this thread is yet another strawman, false on the face of it, perpetuated endlessly without examination, simply serving to divide? That so many here worked hard to defend and support the claim seems very sad to me.

Merry Christmas to Catholics, Protestants and all humankind. Let us work together to make religion a bridge and not a barrier. We should agree to disagree and leave it at that. This universe may have 100 million solar systems, and we waste our time pretending to know its secrets and pushing others to adopt our viewpoint. Poppycock. We walk by faith and not by knowledge, and I’m content to do that without claiming that my church or any church is the only true and apostolic one.

.

 

[izoid]

ABOUT MARY
No Protestant I know dislikes Mary! That suggestion is wildly wrong. Certainly at Christmas the role of Mary in a Protestant pageant or tableau always is treasured. She is far more important than Joseph, the angels, the shepherds and the Magi,
I agree that the word “dislike” confuses the issue. Most protestants show great indifference towards Mary and to a Catholic this can appear to be a “dislike” for her. I have yet to meet a protestant that cares much for Mary, other than during Christmas, all the kids want to play Mary in the reenactment of the Christmas story.

 Protestants don't pray to her because the Bible doesn't suggest that we do. Take St. Paul. In all of his letters advising early Christians on theology and more but he never once mentions Mary. If she were so central to Christianity, please explain that.

Catholics ask Mary, and the saints in heaven, to intercede for us. When those people were here on earth we would also ask them to pray for us. Paul encourages us to pray for one another and that is what Catholics do, ask Mary to pray for us. Maybe Paul did not specifically mention asking Mary to pray for him was because she was still here on earth with him and it was a given that those prayers would be offered? It is clear in Revelation that the saints in heaven are praying for us so we can feel confident that Mary is also.

 Except for the birth and crucifixion of Jesus, Mary is only mentioned twice in the Gospels, and in both cases Jesus doesn't seem to elevate her.

This can be best addressed by asking you to study the Queen mother and her role in the life of the King in the OT. Also, how about the wedding at Cana? Did Jesus want to perform His first miracle or did He do it because His mother requested it? I think that says a lot to the importance that Mary held in Jesus’ life.

 

[izoid]

ABOUT MARY

   I believe there also is a good case that Jesus had siblings. Reread Matt, 1:25. And the Bible speaks of Jesus' brothers. There is something bizarre about a happily married couple not having sexual relations. It's grounds for divorce just about anywhere in the world. On the one hand Catholicism claims to encourage wholesome sex in marriage. At the same time it promotes adulation of Mary, in part because of her 'purity', Just what is impure about conjugal relations between loving husbands and wives? It is one of the purest relationships that I can imagine and it ought to be celebrated and in no way demeaned.

I think it is even more difficult to understand how a virgin can give birth to a child yet you seem to believe that without issue? THere is nothing impure about the marital relationship. No Catholic has suggested that there is, it is you who introduced that idea.

 Now AmericanJosiah makes the suggestion (#211) that artificial contraception explains why people dislike or disrespect Mary. He says that using artificial birth control cheapens respect for motherhood and makes sexual relations an act purely for pleasure.

Actually, I have found just the opposite true. Family planning honors women and helps permit them to decide when they feel they should have another baby. I recall as a child a woman down the road (farm country), a devout Catholic family, who tried to take her life when she found that she was pregnant for the 14th time.

American Josiah is correct and you are incorrect. Birth control makes the sexual act purely for pleasure. Sex was given by God as a means to procreate. He was good enough to also include pleasure in the act. When you separate the procreative aspect from sex you diminish what God intends it to be.

 But isn't the Catholic calendar system of acceptable contraception just another way of saying 'no' to God? The woman is not open to contraception - at least, that is her/their intention.

Not al all. The couple is not eliminating the possibility of pregnancy. They are leaving it open to God to determine whether a life is created.

  I doubt if child abuse is greater today than in the past. Perhaps even less of it. I can recall during my childhood years when even nuns would beat children who misbehaved. And "spare the rod and spoil the child' - from the Bible - was the prevailing philosophy and practice in millions of Christian homes. My wife, an ex-Catholic, left the church when she reached adulthood in part because of her bad experiences in parochial school, experiences that would not be tolerated today. Once she was whacked by a nun in front of the class because she forgot it was the day the students went to mass as a group and her blouse didn't cover her elbows - or some such archaic tradition which has since been abandoned (I think). Thank you, John XXIII and Paul VI.

Not sure how this relate to Mary? It seems as though you are unclear of the details so maybe you should have just left this out.

   If people want to venerate Mary, fine. A free country. But the notion that Protestants dislike Mary is foolishness. The elevation of Mary developed in Christendom, likely because Christianity was competing with the mystery cults, some of which had a 'Virgin Queen of Heaven'. The most effective way of winning was to adopt the tradition and thereby 'steal' a popular practice from a rival.

This is your opinion and is not backed up by any factual evidence.

   Merry Christmas to Catholics, Protestants and all humankind. Let us work together to make religion a bridge and not a barrier. We should agree to disagree and leave it at that. This universe may have 100 million solar systems, and we waste our time pretending to know its secrets and pushing others to adopt our viewpoint. Poppycock. We walk by faith and not by knowledge, and I'm content to do that without claiming that my church or any church is the only true and apostolic one.

I disagree with the last sentence of this statement. I see a great deal of relativism in your comment and I feel that relativism is one of the great dangers in the Church today. There is a truth and we are commanded by God to find it and to defend it. I wish you also a Merry Christmas.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

So in the end, those who do not appreciate Mary do so because honoring Mary takes away from Jesus -causing feeling of “loss” and “betrayal”…

It is because prayer is their only link to Jesus, as opposed to one of many links to Jesus as we catholics have been blessed to have.

–(Eucharist, and Catholic membership as the body of Christ)--

Here is the better explanation; the Catholic Mary is foreign to the Protestant.
Catholic Mary characteristics: - Immaculate conceived, perpetual virgin, worship by Catholic under the guise of veneration, which by Catholic definition is worship, Mother of God, co-mediatrix, dispenser of all graces, Queen of Heaven etc etc

Protestant Mary: earthly mother of Jesus, virgin until after the birth of Jesus, had other sons and daughter with husband Joseph, was sinful and in need of a Savior like the rest of us, was a chosen vessel of God to deliver the Savior via natural birth. Is no greater a saint than any other saint in God’s view.

From my Christian perspective, you have a Mary that is not spoken of in the bible in my personal opinion. Doesn’t mean we do not have respect for her, we just don’t elevate her to a status foreign to Scripture.

 

[izoid]

Here is the better explanation; the Catholic Mary is foreign to the Protestant.
Catholic Mary characteristics: - Immaculate conceived, perpetual virgin, worship by Catholic under the guise of veneration, which by Catholic definition is worship, Mother of God, co-mediatrix, dispenser of all graces, Queen of Heaven etc etc

Protestant Mary: earthly mother of Jesus, virgin until after the birth of Jesus, had other sons and daughter with husband Joseph, was sinful and in need of a Savior like the rest of us, was a chosen vessel of God to deliver the Savior via natural birth. Is no greater a saint than any other saint in God’s view.

From my Christian perspective, you have a Mary that is not spoken of in the bible in my personal opinion. Doesn’t mean we do not have respect for her, we just don’t elevate her to a status foreign to Scripture.

This post should shed some light on this entire discussion we have been having. Repeatedly, we Catholics are told that protestants do not dislike Mary and that we are making that up. I think this post makes it very clear that we are not.

According to Timothy Piper, Catholics and protestants do not know the same Mary. The protestant Mary is very, very different than the Catholic Mary. To the Catholic, the reconstruction of who Mary is equates to a dislike for her. When you fail to accept who a person really is and you re make that person into someone that is palatable to you, you do so because you do not like who they really are. It is clear from Timothy’s words that he dislikes the Catholic Mary.

I also find it interesting that Timothy subtly attacks Catholics in the process. Stating that we “worship” Mary even though it has been pointed out to him that we do not worship Mary. Using terms such as “under the guise”, implying that we are purposely deceiving. His attempts to bind Catholics to a scripture only view shows a lack of respect for Catholics and their tradition. After all, many of the Catholics ideas of Mary existed long before any protestant denomination.

 

[izoid]

Here is the better explanation; the Catholic Mary is foreign to the Protestant.
Catholic Mary characteristics: - Immaculate conceived, perpetual virgin, worship by Catholic under the guise of veneration, which by Catholic definition is worship, Mother of God, co-mediatrix, dispenser of all graces, Queen of Heaven etc etc

Protestant Mary: earthly mother of Jesus Mutual belief., virgin until after the birth of Jesus Mutual belief, had other sons and daughter with husband Joseph Disagree. Can you provide scriptural evidence, real evidence and not simply that some people were called Jesus’ brothers(we know cousins were also called brothers during that period of history).? , was sinful and in need of a Savior like the rest of us Agree that she needed a savior, she was saved before birth Remember, nothing is impossible with God., was a chosen vessel of God to deliver the Savior via natural birth Not sure what you mean by “natural birth” but I think we are in agreement… Is no greater a saint than any other saint in God’s view Who are you referring to when you mention saints? Since protestants believe that all believers are saints, am I clear that you feel every believers is equal in status to Mary…

From my Christian perspective, you have a Mary that is not spoken of in the bible in my personal opinion. Doesn’t mean we do not have respect for her, we just don’t elevate her to a status foreign to Scripture. From my Christian perspective, you have a false view of Mary and that view diminishes your appreciation for her. If you read ALL of scripture you will see that the Catholic perspective of Mary is very Biblical. Can we point to a single verse, no. We can however develop a complete theology based upon a complete understanding of both the NT and the OT.

 

[peary1]

Here is the better explanation; the Catholic Mary is foreign to the Protestant.
Catholic Mary characteristics: - Immaculate conceived, perpetual virgin, worship by Catholic under the guise of veneration, which by Catholic definition is worship, Mother of God, co-mediatrix, dispenser of all graces, Queen of Heaven etc etc

Protestant Mary: earthly mother of Jesus, virgin until after the birth of Jesus, had other sons and daughter with husband Joseph, was sinful and in need of a Savior like the rest of us, was a chosen vessel of God to deliver the Savior via natural birth. Is no greater a saint than any other saint in God’s view.

From my Christian perspective, you have a Mary that is not spoken of in the bible in my personal opinion. Doesn’t mean we do not have respect for her, we just don’t elevate her to a status foreign to Scripture.

**Actually, the ‘protestant’ Mary is unbiblical. And, for your information, she is spoken of in Scripture, or implied to be present, at least 12 times.

And why don’t you be honest about it? You don’t have respect for her. The Catholic and orthodox churches are the only ones that have continued the biblical tradition of honoring her when she spoke, in her Magnificat, “All generations shall call me blessed.”

Her status is neither foreign to Scripture nor to the Church. The protestant view of Mary is what is foreign.

And once again, and I will continue to bring this up, you cannot understand spiritual motherhood, or have an authentic understanding of marriage when your protestant churches not only promote but encourage the use of artificial contraception (birth control) and, in some cases, even abortion. THAT is what is so foreign to true Christianity. You cannot possibly fathom anything regarding Mary, her perpetual virginity, her immaculate conception, her chastity, particularly when your own churches are so sex-obsessed.**

 

[Justy90]

Not worship.

say whatever you wish. It’s alot closer to worship than you would ever admit.

 

[Justy90]

But the honor Anglicans give to the king and queen of England is to the “point of near worship…” Honor the Mother of God not King Henry Vlll or Queen Elizabeth.

I’ve been an Anglican for years now and I’ve never seen or been involved in what you assert.

 

[Lutheranteach]

I’ve come up with a hypothesis on why protestants do not feel the way we catholics do about Mary…

-I think that since we believe in and frequently recieve Holy Communion with Jesus through the Eucharist, that we are actually closer to Jesus. Since Jesus lives within us, we feel the same compassion about the Virgin Mother that Jesus has. Mary really IS our mother since Jesus lives in us…

In the same way, protestants cant pray to Mary for her intercession, because prayer is their only link to Jesus. We Catholics have such strong physical ties to Jesus due to the consumption of his body and blood, (and the fact that He is the Head of the Body that is the Church) that we dont feel the “loss” that protestants do or any sort of “betrayal” of Jesus when we include Mary in our prayers.

Jesus is always with us !
Thank you Jesus for the Holy Eucharist…

Ummm and what about those protestants that have communion weekly and believe in a real presence?

 

[AmericanJosiah]

.

Let me see if I understand the Catholic perspective…

If we don’t participate in the Eucharist every week, we have a great dislike for Mary, personally. Now, what does that say about the majority of Catholics - who CERTAINLY don’t participate the the Eucharist every week.

If we don’t pray TO Mary, we have a great dislike for Her, personally. Thus, if a Catholic does not pray to President Obama, they hate him?



.

 

[Le_Cracquere]

This post should shed some light on this entire discussion we have been having. Repeatedly, we Catholics are told that protestants do not dislike Mary and that we are making that up. I think this post makes it very clear that we are not.

According to Timothy Piper, Catholics and protestants do not know the same Mary. The protestant Mary is very, very different than the Catholic Mary. To the Catholic, the reconstruction of who Mary is equates to a dislike for her. When you fail to accept who a person really is and you re make that person into someone that is palatable to you, you do so because you do not like who they really are. It is clear from Timothy’s words that he dislikes the Catholic Mary.

I also find it interesting that Timothy subtly attacks Catholics in the process. Stating that we “worship” Mary even though it has been pointed out to him that we do not worship Mary. Using terms such as “under the guise”, implying that we are purposely deceiving. His attempts to bind Catholics to a scripture only view shows a lack of respect for Catholics and their tradition. After all, many of the Catholics ideas of Mary existed long before any protestant denomination.

I myself don’t think much of Piper’s mid-sentence attempt to smuggle in a blanket definition of Catholic Marian attitudes as “worship.” Shoddy tactics, old man! Still, I think Catholics might concede that in many corners of the world, poor apprehension of Marian doctrines can lead to something resembling it among rank-and-file Catholics. I’d add that this doesn’t seem to bother the Church a tenth as much as lay misapprehensions erring in a Protestant direction would. On paper, though, I’ll take Catholic parsings of hyperdoulia and other subspecies of respectful treatment at their word.

Secondly, Izoid, I think you’re falling into a common fallacy among Catholic controversialists: to wit, that modern Protestants are in some sort of deliberate revolt against a Catholic Church whose teachings they understand perfectly well, and that Protestants see & believe the same things Catholics do, but are too unregenerate to admit it, even to themselves. You might want to consider that if one was raised Protestant, the Protestant beliefs about Mary might seem unexceptionable, even inevitable, and that nothing in one’s understanding of the Bible or one’s Church’s tradition glaringly contradicts such beliefs. We’re not “reconstructing” reality in order to avoid seeing the unassailable correctness of your Catholic views; they really do look peculiar and highly debatable to us. We see what we see in Mary, the mother of Jesus, and honor & love it. If that amounts to dislike in your book, then I can’t help you.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

This post should shed some light on this entire discussion we have been having. Repeatedly, we Catholics are told that protestants do not dislike Mary and that we are making that up. I think this post makes it very clear that we are not.
According to Timothy Piper, Catholics and protestants do not know the same Mary. The protestant Mary is very, very different than the Catholic Mary. To the Catholic, the reconstruction of who Mary is equates to a dislike for her. When you fail to accept who a person really is and you re make that person into someone that is palatable to you, you do so because you do not like who they really are. It is clear from Timothy’s words that he dislikes the Catholic Mary.

Normally I do not respond to you, but because of your twisting I will address this post. It is not a matter of disliking the Catholic Mary; but rather I don’t know the Catholic Mary. How can one dislike, that which they do not know and from all appearances, in my opinion and thoughts, is more of an apparition than a real person?

I also find it interesting that Timothy subtly attacks Catholics in the process. Stating that we “worship” Mary even though it has been pointed out to him that we do not worship Mary. Using terms such as “under the guise”, implying that we are purposely deceiving. His attempts to bind Catholics to a scripture only view shows a lack of respect for Catholics and their tradition. … many of the Catholics ideas of Mary existed long before any protestant denomination.

If you are not deceiving, then you are just ignorant of how your own defines what worship is. Why Catholics are so offended or embarrassed by the fact that you worship Mary, you worship saints, relics and images is beyond me. Are you saints and Mary not worthy of your worship?

There are several degrees of this worship:
if it is addressed directly to God…supreme worship, or worship of adoration…according to the consecrated theological term, a worship of latria. This sovereign worship is due to God alone;

As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints, **the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia **(for the meaning and history of these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus, 1728).

In accordance with these principles it will readily be understood that a certain worship may be offered even to inanimate objects, such as the relics of a martyr, the Cross of Christ, the Crown of Thorns, or even the statue or picture of a saint. There is here no confusion or danger of idolatry, for this worship is subordinate or dependent.
As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints, the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia (for the meaning and history of these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus, 1728).
newadvent.org/cathen/15710a.htm

“WORSHIP”. Adoration and reverence paid to God…also for the honor paid to the saints….veneration." (William E. Addis & Thomas Arnold, Eds., A Catholic Dictionary containing some account of the doctrine, discipline, rites, ceremonies, councils and religious orders of the Catholic Church, Catholic Publication Society:New York (1884); w/Nihil Obstat and Imprimitur)

971 “All generations will call me blessed”: "The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."513 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."514 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an “epitome of the whole Gospel,” express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.515

Adoration

2096 Adoration is the first act of the virtue of religion. To adore God is to acknowledge him as God, as the Creator and Savior, the Lord and Master of everything that exists, as infinite and merciful Love. “You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve,” says Jesus, citing Deuteronomy.13

2097 To adore God is to acknowledge, in respect and absolute submission, the “nothingness of the creature” who would not exist but for God. To adore God is to praise and exalt him and to humble oneself, as Mary did in the Magnificat, confessing with gratitude that he has done great things and holy is his name.14 The worship of the one God sets man free from turning in on himself, from the slavery of sin and the idolatry of the world.

2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it."70 The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone:

No need to be embarrassed nor in denial nor ignorant; it is okay by the Church. Be proud, not ashamed.

The Church’s devotion to the Virgin is not only the fruit of a spontaneous response to the exceptional value of her person and*** the importance of her role in the work of salvation, but is based on Christ’s will.***

The history of Christian piety teaches that Mary is the way which leads to Christ and that filial devotion to her takes nothing from intimacy with Jesus; indeed, it increases it and leads to the highest levels of perfection.
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/1997/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_07051997_en.html

 

[izoid]

I myself don’t think much of Piper’s mid-sentence attempt to smuggle in a blanket definition of Catholic Marian attitudes as “worship.” Shoddy tactics, old man! Still, I think Catholics might concede that in many corners of the world, poor apprehension of Marian doctrines can lead to something resembling it among rank-and-file Catholics. I’d add that this doesn’t seem to bother the Church a tenth as much as lay misapprehensions erring in a Protestant direction would. On paper, though, I’ll take Catholic parsings of hyperdoulia and other subspecies of respectful treatment at their word.

Secondly, Izoid, I think you’re falling into a common fallacy among Catholic controversialists: to wit, that modern Protestants are in some sort of deliberate revolt against a Catholic Church whose teachings they understand perfectly well, and that Protestants see & believe the same things Catholics do, but are too unregenerate to admit it, even to themselves. You might want to consider that if one was raised Protestant, the Protestant beliefs about Mary might seem unexceptionable, even inevitable, and that nothing in one’s understanding of the Bible or one’s Church’s tradition glaringly contradicts such beliefs. We’re not “reconstructing” reality in order to avoid seeing the unassailable correctness of your Catholic views; they really do look peculiar and highly debatable to us. We see what we see in Mary, the mother of Jesus, and honor & love it. If that amounts to dislike in your book, then I can’t help you.

As to your first point; I agree with you wholeheartedly. Like in any religious environment you will have a wide understanding of a given belief. I have observed some Catholics that appear to be very committed to Mary, to a level that I myself am uncomfortable with.

Your second point is also true. With respect to Timothy Piper I feel it is not however. He seems to be well versed in Catholic doctrine and is quite opposed to it. He was able to articulate Catholic Marian beliefs very fluidly, with the “worship” jab as an exception. I don’t recall where but I read a quote that many people hate Catholic beliefs but many more hate what they think Catholics believe. Very rough paraphrase but I think it is 100% spot on.

I was an anti-Catholic protestant for 20 years and I know that what I thought the Church taught and what they actually teach were very far apart. You see, I have a background in a very conservative, fundamental form of Christianity and my lenses are colored with that background. I think that TP may have a similar background. I do find many people here with that frame of reference and I tend to go to combat with them.

I have also found that not all protestants are hostile to Catholicism and that there are some VERY thoughtful and kind people here on CA. I appreciate you reminding me of this and helping me to remember that not everyone has ill intentions.

 

[izoid]

Normally I do not respond to you, but because of your twisting I will address this post. It is not a matter of disliking the Catholic Mary; but rather I don’t know the Catholic Mary. How can one dislike, that which they do not know and from all appearances, in my opinion and thoughts, is more of an apparition than a real person?

If you are not deceiving, then you are just ignorant of how your own defines what worship is. Why Catholics are so offended or embarrassed by the fact that you worship Mary, you worship saints, relics and images is beyond me. Are you saints and Mary not worthy of your worship?

There are several degrees of this worship:
if it is addressed directly to God…supreme worship, or worship of adoration…according to the consecrated theological term, a worship of latria. This sovereign worship is due to God alone;

As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints, **the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia **(for the meaning and history of these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus, 1728).

In accordance with these principles it will readily be understood that a certain worship may be offered even to inanimate objects, such as the relics of a martyr, the Cross of Christ, the Crown of Thorns, or even the statue or picture of a saint. There is here no confusion or danger of idolatry, for this worship is subordinate or dependent.
As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints, the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia (for the meaning and history of these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus, 1728).
newadvent.org/cathen/15710a.htm

“WORSHIP”. Adoration and reverence paid to God…also for the honor paid to the saints….veneration." (William E. Addis & Thomas Arnold, Eds., A Catholic Dictionary containing some account of the doctrine, discipline, rites, ceremonies, councils and religious orders of the Catholic Church, Catholic Publication Society:New York (1884); w/Nihil Obstat and Imprimitur)

971 “All generations will call me blessed”: "The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."513 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."514 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an “epitome of the whole Gospel,” express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.515

Adoration

2096 Adoration is the first act of the virtue of religion. To adore God is to acknowledge him as God, as the Creator and Savior, the Lord and Master of everything that exists, as infinite and merciful Love. “You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve,” says Jesus, citing Deuteronomy.13

2097 To adore God is to acknowledge, in respect and absolute submission, the “nothingness of the creature” who would not exist but for God. To adore God is to praise and exalt him and to humble oneself, as Mary did in the Magnificat, confessing with gratitude that he has done great things and holy is his name.14 The worship of the one God sets man free from turning in on himself, from the slavery of sin and the idolatry of the world.

2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it."70 The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone:

No need to be embarrassed nor in denial nor ignorant; it is okay by the Church. Be proud, not ashamed.

The Church’s devotion to the Virgin is not only the fruit of a spontaneous response to the exceptional value of her person and*** the importance of her role in the work of salvation, but is based on Christ’s will.***

The history of Christian piety teaches that Mary is the way which leads to Christ and that filial devotion to her takes nothing from intimacy with Jesus; indeed, it increases it and leads to the highest levels of perfection.
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/1997/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_07051997_en.html

When you referred to Catholics “worshipping” Mary it was a jab and meant to infer that we worship her as we worship God. I know it, you know it and everyone else who read it knows it.

You now, acknowledge that you know we do not worship her as we worship God. In fact, we don’t worship her at all. Why do you make a claim you know to be untrue? I find you to be very disrespectful and deceptive. When one states something knowing it to be false t is dishonest. I have called you on it before and here you go again.

If I am understanding you incorrectly, please correct (I mean that). I honestly believe that you are not interested in learning about each other but you want to teach us how wrong we are. I have pointed out how you come across as condescending and superior but you continue this approach. Do you care about that at all? Do you want to create understanding and respect or do you have other motives?

 

[peary1]

Normally I do not respond to you, but because of your twisting I will address this post. It is not a matter of disliking the Catholic Mary; but rather I don’t know the Catholic Mary. How can one dislike, that which they do not know and from all appearances, in my opinion and thoughts, is more of an apparition than a real person?

Then why involve yourself in any charitable work when you don’t know those you are attempting to be charitable to? After all, how can you love someone you don’t know? Or are you one of those who just throws money into the collection plate and your involvement stops there? How convenient.

 

[izoid]

Normally I do not respond to you, but because of your twisting I will address this post. It is not a matter of disliking the Catholic Mary; but rather I don’t know the Catholic Mary. How can one dislike, that which they do not know and from all appearances, in my opinion and thoughts, is more of an apparition than a real person?

You know fully, you just don’t agree. You did a fairly good job of representing Catholic views of Mary, proving you understand them. You know our teachings well enough to quote various Catholic theologians on those teachings. You sir, are very well versed in and prepared to, deny and argue against Catholic teachings on Mary. You refusal to agree does not equate to not knowing. Maybe an honest reply would be to say that you don’t understand how Catholics can believe what they do.

 

[Le_Cracquere]

As to your first point; I agree with you wholeheartedly. Like in any religious environment you will have a wide understanding of a given belief. I have observed some Catholics that appear to be very committed to Mary, to a level that I myself am uncomfortable with.

Your second point is also true. With respect to Timothy Piper I feel it is not however. He seems to be well versed in Catholic doctrine and is quite opposed to it. He was able to articulate Catholic Marian beliefs very fluidly, with the “worship” jab as an exception. I don’t recall where but I read a quote that many people hate Catholic beliefs but many more hate what they think Catholics believe. Very rough paraphrase but I think it is 100% spot on.

I was an anti-Catholic protestant for 20 years and I know that what I thought the Church taught and what they actually teach were very far apart. You see, I have a background in a very conservative, fundamental form of Christianity and my lenses are colored with that background. I think that TP may have a similar background. I do find many people here with that frame of reference and I tend to go to combat with them.

I have also found that not all protestants are hostile to Catholicism and that there are some VERY thoughtful and kind people here on CA. I appreciate you reminding me of this and helping me to remember that not everyone has ill intentions.

And thanks to you as well. Merry Christmas to all, and may the New Year bring little heat but much light to all us controversialists!

 

[Roy5]

A couple quick points

(1) There is something awkward and even wrong about debating Mary on Christmas Eve. Obviously all Christians admire her, and any attempt to make Protestants into anti-Mary people is wrong. Why, I keep asking, do some Catholics keep pressing what is clearly incorrect and unfair?

(2) This whole business of anti-Catholicism can be misleading, too. I am a rather free-thinking Protestant who treasures that freedom. I do not agree with Catholicism on a wide variety of issues, but that doesn't mean I'm anti-Catholic. I don't agree with various kinds of Protestantism but I am not anti-Protestant. Actually, I do not agree with Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc., but I am not anti any of those faiths. It is quite possible -and I recommend it - to disagree agreeably, to respect another faith while still taking issue with some of its beliefs or practices. I spent some time with a Hindu family in India and decided that if they didn't make it to heaven I probably wouldn't get there either. Superb family who, by the way, highly regarded Christ. Remember how Gandhi admired Christ, too, but when he lived in South Africa and was not permitted ro worship in a 'white' church because of his color he decided that too many self-described Christians were not true followers of Jesus. 

 (3) Loyal Catholics are going to pray to Mary, believe in the Immaculate Conception and Assumption (even though Protestants find no basis for either in scripture), and in other ways venerate Mary. They gain strength from all this. Fine. I'm a Protestant who considers the Adam-Eve story, Noah and the Ark, and the Tower of Babel more legend than history, and many evangelical Protestants would consider me heretical. I'm sure God honors the seeking and sincere mind. I'm counting on it.  

  Merry Christmas to one and all. Yes, I even have trouble accepting some facets of the Christmas story as told in the gospels, wondering if some mythology got mixed in with the essential nessage. But I do love Christmas and I do believe in Emmanuel - "God with us". That central truth is eternal and should provide us all with comfort and peace in tough times - and every day.

 

[AmericanJosiah]

A couple quick points

(1) There is something awkward and even wrong about debating Mary on Christmas Eve. Obviously all Christians admire her, and any attempt to make Protestants into anti-Mary people is wrong. Why, I keep asking, do some Catholics keep pressing what is clearly incorrect and unfair?

The accusation seems constant and perpetual. I’ve been hearing and reading this from some Catholics since I was probably 10 years old. While not all here have jumped on the wagon, few have repudiated it as baseless. The majority seem to want to support and defend the accusation that “non Catholics dislike Mary.” Sad, I think. These strawmen seem to just live on and on and one, copy/pasted in perpetuity for those who seem to feel some reward for blindly repeating it. (Note: the very same Catholics will decry how some Protestants accuse all Catholics of worshipping Mary - go figure).

(2) This whole business of anti-Catholicism can be misleading, too. I am a rather free-thinking Protestant who treasures that freedom. I do not agree with Catholicism on a wide variety of issues, but that doesn’t mean I’m anti-Catholic. I don’t agree with various kinds of Protestantism but I am not anti-Protestant. Actually, I do not agree with Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc., but I am not anti any of those faiths.

I agree. The replacement of open discussion with “why’s everybody always pic’n on pur, little 'ol ME?” is often just a circumvention, an attempt to terminate the discussion (it usually works), to evade the question.