Why do non catholics dislike Mother Mary?

[izoid]

That website isn’t evidence of anything, other than the fact that they hate pretty much everyone.
jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Lutherans/whats_wrong_with_the_lutheran_religion.htm

Jon

The unfortunate thing is that there are many fundamental protestants that think like this. I have seen it first hand on many occasions.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Both are important.2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

“Full of grace” is just as important as “blessed are you.” The two parts make the whole in describing the dignity of Mary in this Scripture verse.
No, you did not receive as much grace as Mary. She was already full of grace when the angel appeared to her and asked her to become the mother of our Savior.
Revelation 11:19-12:1
Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail. 12:1 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars.
Mary is the ark of the New Covenant :nope: because her womb is the first tabernacle of our Savior.
1 Corinthians 3:8Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.
I was further explaining it. I was not denying that there are different degrees of worship (latria is for God alone, hyperdulia is veneration of Mary alone in honor of her dignity as the Mother of God, and dulia is for the veneration/honor of all saints other than Mary. It is as you say, “a matter of degree.” **
What command of God are you talking about?**
2 Peter 1:1-4
1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: 2 **Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; 3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him **who called us by His own glory and excellence.
2 Peter 3
14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, 15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, **be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, **18 but **grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. **To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen. – First the the facts about the untaught and unstable and the result of distorting the Scriptures - verse 16. Second, the command to be on guard and the reason for being on guard - verse17 & Third, the command to “grow in the grace and knowledge” of the Lord. How is this done? By the washing of the Word John 17:17. This is not a command to a leadership, but to each Christian. How is this possible? Paul tells us.
1 Corinthians 2:9-13,16 "but just as it is written, “THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND {which} HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM.” 10 For to us God revealed {them} through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. 11 For who among men knows the {thoughts} of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the {thoughts} of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to by God, 13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual {thoughts} with spiritual {words.} …16 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.?

These are important lessons/examples in how God ministers to His people in past times and also now in the present.

Regardless of what you think or believe; I have received as much grace as Mary and possibly more and will see her when I am in heaven with her according to the Word of God, which I highly esteem. Thank God, she does not know how exalted she has been made to be near or the Lord’s equal.

If one were to break down the Pslam or Hymm or Magnifcat; Mary records from her innermost being of soul and spirit an example to all Christians true worship of God. I have a sermon, which I can share, just on that song of praise from Mary and the theology of true worship is one of the if not the best example of a heart of worship for God…

By nature, the Christian is “full of God’s saving and sanctifying grace”.
Romans 5:17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more** those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. ** – Being in Christ, there is no greater and more complete grace. I can argue I have received more grace because I have received much forgiveness because of much sin, particularly in my prior life as a non-Christian.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Merry Christmas everyone and God bless the Lord and Savior of man and thanks be to God almighty for the Gift of God, our salvation, through Jesus Christ, the best Gift ever!!

 

[Justy90]

Merry Christmas everyone and God bless the Lord and Savior of man and thanks be to God almighty for the Gift of God, our salvation, through Jesus Christ, the best Gift ever!!

Absolutely!!

 

[izoid]

Fruitcake?..I love fruitcake.

 

[SHW]

Regardless of what you think or believe; I have received as much grace as Mary and possibly more and will see her when I am in heaven with her according to the Word of God, which I highly esteem. Thank God, she does not know how exalted she has been made to be near or the Lord’s equal.

If one were to break down the Pslam or Hymm or Magnifcat; Mary records from her innermost being of soul and spirit an example to all Christians true worship of God. I have a sermon, which I can share, just on that song of praise from Mary and the theology of true worship is one of the if not the best example of a heart of worship for God…

It is true that Mary is not Jesus’ equal, but Mary’s dignity is much greater than ours and she is Queen of Heaven and Earth because her Son is King of Heaven and Earth. The Mother of the King in the Davidic line of Kings is always the Queen; it is never the wife of the king in the Davidic line who is the Queen.

**The Blessed Virgin is the Ark of the New Covenant. **

It is amazing that God inspired His Word in the Old Testament and in the New Testament to be written as a comparison a thousand years apart when He compares the Ark of the Old Covenant to the Ark of the New Covenant.

1000 B.C. for King David and his Golden Box, the Ark of the Old Covenant in the Old Testament and about 1 A.D. for Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, the first tabernacle of Jesus our Lord in the New Testament.

The following website compares the two in a chart form:
catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0510fea5sb1.asp

Here is the comparison of the Ark of the Old Covenant to Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant:

Golden Box: Ark of the Old Covenant
The ark traveled to the house of Obed-edom in the hill country of Judea (2 Sam. 6:1–11).
**
Mary: Ark of the New Covenant**
Mary traveled to the house of Elizabeth and Zechariah in the hill country of Judea (Luke 1:39).

---

**
Golden Box: Ark of the Old Covenant**
Dressed as a priest, David danced and leapt in front of the ark (2 Sam. 6:14).

Mary: Ark of the New Covenant
John the Baptist—of priestly lineage—leapt in his mother’s womb at the approach of Mary (Luke 1:41).

---

**
Golden Box: Ark of the Old Covenant**
David asks, “How can the ark of the Lord come to me?” (2 Sam. 6:9).

Mary: Ark of the New Covenant
Elizabeth asks, “Why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” (Luke 1:43).

---

**
Golden Box: Ark of the Old Covenant**
David shouts in the presence of the ark (2 Sam. 6:15).

Mary: Ark of the New Covenant
Elizabeth “exclaimed with a loud cry” in the presence of the Mary (Luke 1:42).

---

**
Golden Box: Ark of the Old Covenant**
The ark remained in the house of Obed-edom for three months (2 Sam. 6:11).

Mary: Ark of the New Covenant
Mary remained in the house of Elizabeth for three months (Luke 1:56).

---

**
Golden Box: Ark of the Old Covenant**
The house of Obed-edom was blessed by the presence of the ark (2 Sam. 6:11).

Mary: Ark of the New Covenant
The word blessed is used three times; surely the house was blessed by God (Luke 1:39–45).

---

**
Golden Box: Ark of the Old Covenant**
The ark returns to its home and ends up in Jerusalem, where God’s presence and glory is revealed in the temple (2 Sam. 6:12; 1 Kgs. 8:9–11).

Mary: Ark of the New Covenant
Mary returns home and eventually ends up in Jerusalem, where she presents God incarnate in the temple (Luke 1:56; 2:21–22).

By Steve Ray

---

Paul states this in regards to the Bishop Timothy:

Philippians 2:28-30
Therefore I sent him the more eagerly, that when you see him again you may rejoice, and I may be less sorrowful. 29 Receive him therefore in the Lord with all gladness, and hold such men in esteem; 30 because for the work of Christ he came close to death, not regarding his life, to supply what was lacking in your service toward me.

We each have been given a role in the Body of Christ. They are not all the same.

Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

We each have been given a different measure of faith.

Ephesians 4:7
But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.

We each have been given a different measure of grace.

1 Thessalonians 5:12-13
And we urge you, brethren, to recognize those (bishops) who labor among you, and are over you in the Lord and admonish you, 13 and to esteem them very highly in love for their work’s sake. Be at peace among yourselves.

We each have different degrees of honor even though we all belong to the One Body of Christ.

Mary’s faith, gifts, graces, and honors are high above ours because she is the mother of our Lord. Since her Son Jesus is king of heaven and earth, then she is queen of heaven of earth. She receives this exalted dignity from her Son.

There were no chapter nor verse separations in the original manuscripts of the Bible.

Truly the mother of Jesus is the Ark of the New Covenant:

Revelation 11:19, 12:1
Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail. 1 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars.

 

[TEPO]

I have another reason you can add to your list.
I think the reason Catholics find Marian devotion normal and proper is because they grew up with it. Protestants did not.

As for me personally, I focus on getting to know Jesus, the Heavenly Father and the Holy Spirit, and reading Scripture as my main source of knowlege. There are three Persons who want to teach me something about themselves and about Christian life and they want to give me something. When I am deeper in a relationship with The Trinity, then I can say prayers to other persons whom I will however never communicate with in the way that I do with Christ… He is our Best Freind, our Holy Companion… far more lovely than any angel or saint, He Who knows everything about us, and we should never fear coming to Him because He alone has been tested in all things and bore all our sins.

At any rate, when I read the Old and New Testament I receive a story about whom God is. I get a wonderful image of Him, His ways, thoughts, words and actions. He tells me about Himself in His Word. When I read the Bible there is hardly anything there that makes me know anything personal about the Virgin Mary. She can teach me about humility, sure, and that is wonderful… but her humility is nothing compared to God’s Humility when He comes in the flesh.

I do ask Mary for intercession once in a while. I respect her and find her wonderful because she has brought such joy to Jesus and served Him and gave Him the flesh that was blessed because it was His.
In that way I also have deep respect for people such as John the apostle and Mary of Magdala who followed Jesus and comforted Him… Do I know these personally? No. I can say: "Pray for me John and Paul, Peter, Mary, Martha… But it does not mean I need a personal relationship with them. When/if I make it to heaven I can speak to them there over a nice meal I can wait that long, and as long as I walk this planet I focus on the saints who are around me visibly and on Jesus who has everything I need and is ready to give it to me.
Sorry if I disapoint some people, but I do not think that love for Mary or strong devotion to her makes you a better Catholic.
I like to look at the Acts of the Apostles and the letters of Paul, Peter and James after I look at Jesus’ actions which were directed at His Father(in prayer) and His fellow men … and hold that up as an example for Christian living… I have a long way to go in that… The saints are role models for me… surely, but when I pray, which I never do enough… I will commune at length with my Lord instead of with another creature.

By the way… I receive the Eucharist and I love the Eucharistic Jesus. Still I, like apostles it seems, do not have a devotion to Mary as such. As one of our brethren said: Praying to the Lord and worshipping Him is the best way to please Mary. I am sure that is true. This does not mean I dont find Her wonderful and beautiful.

Peace to you …

I am confused on how you say loving Mary will not help you become a “better” catholic -that is not the point at all… We all see Jesus on a Divine level as son of God, but when we see Jesus on the human level as son of Mary, we can relate with him on a personal level… Jesus is now -not only our Lord, but also our “Brother” whom we can relate to and imitate as human to human… Once we get to know Jesus on BOTH levels, it seems as though we naturally or perhaps spiritually also develop the relationship with the mother of Jesus. It is not that Catholics NEED a relationship with her, rather that the relationship becomes a natural result. To love Mary as Jesus did is to be familiar with the Divine AND human aspects of our Lord.

So in an indirect kind of way -those who don’t love Mary, don’t fully know Jesus. And by the way, as a cradle Catholic -it took me 32 years to come to understand this. So “growing up with it” does not necessarily mean that Catholics automatically “believe” what the Catholic Church says about Mary… Many Catholics are confused on it, obviously Luther was too. It takes a deeper understanding.

But I think you are on the right path, as one needs to know the trinity first -then the love for Mary will develop.

 

[TEPO]

Thank you, but the question we are to discuss is not that SOME Protestants may “feel” different things about Our Lady than SOME Catholics. Read the title of this thread. The question is this: Why do non-Catholics dislike Mary?"

BTW, I"m Protestant and I passionately believe that She is our Mother and the Mother of God. But since I’m non-Catholic, the question becomes why do I have a great dislike for Her personally? Actually, I don’t think I do. Actually, I’ve never met a non-Catholic who does - but this accusation (so often made by Catholics) insists that I must. Why? I don’t use a condom (one explanation given in this thread - using a condom). True, I don’t pray TO Mary (I occasionally pray THROUGH Her), but then I don’t pray to President Obama either, does that mean I a great personal dislike for the man? I don’t agree with all his actions or views, but I don’t hold a personal hatred for the man.
.

Sorry, but I find this thread to be the perfect platform for me to express my newly thought of points. Although I must add, I agree that no real Christian could ever “dislike” Mary for any reason. There seems to be some confusion on what “dislike” means here on this thread. I’ll only go as far as addressing it as “feeling differently”, as not to offend anyone.

 

[TEPO]

Here is the better explanation; the Catholic Mary is foreign to the Protestant.
Catholic Mary characteristics: - Immaculate conceived, perpetual virgin, worship by Catholic under the guise of veneration, which by Catholic definition is worship, Mother of God, co-mediatrix, dispenser of all graces, Queen of Heaven etc etc

Protestant Mary: earthly mother of Jesus, virgin until after the birth of Jesus, had other sons and daughter with husband Joseph, was sinful and in need of a Savior like the rest of us, was a chosen vessel of God to deliver the Savior via natural birth. Is no greater a saint than any other saint in God’s view.

From my Christian perspective, you have a Mary that is not spoken of in the bible in my personal opinion. Doesn’t mean we do not have respect for her, we just don’t elevate her to a status foreign to Scripture.

Sorry, but I have to disagree. It is a deeper understanding of Christ which enables Catholics to develop a unique compassion for the Virgin Mother. It is the understanding of both the Divine and human aspects of Jesus that create this love for the Mother. Being protestant however, may in fact be a part of the problem though, as being one separates you from many of the graces given to the Holy Church. This in effect limits your exposure to God, and creates a separation. Having only the Bible and prayer as your linkage to God, limits your openness to the Holy spirit. The Holy spirit gives you the grace to love the Mother.

I’m not saying that you get NO graces as you obviously do as a follower of Christ, I’m just saying that you don’t get ALL of them.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Hi wwolverine,

Of course accept what you will. Indeed, every translation (including mine) has the comma where it is seen…but fallable man translated the original scripture…which is why I say that - as truth - God (and Christ) doesn’t contradict Himself anywhere, so we have multiple references of death = “sleep” until the awakening into salvation when Christ returns. So the message quoted by Christ at His death must match the messages He’s given in His earlier discussions. Our current translation does not match due to one simple comma.

Now, is “sleeping” = “waiting expectantly”?

Well, let me ask you: Imagine the time when you had the best sleep of your life; you didn’t stir…you didn’t wake in the middle of this night, and you did not dream at all this night. From your point of view, were you aware of time? Are we ever aware of how much time actually passes during slumber? We can’t be sure whether an hour, a day, a week or a year has passed until we seek a point of reference when we awaken: for most of us its a clock.

…The effect of “sleep” is virtually instantaneous…we enter into oblivion.

Time is relative, so those who “sleep” do not wait. In fact, from their point of view as soon as they lay to rest, they are awakened at the second coming.

…And now I must get a little sleep, as it is 4am my time.]

Okay, you all have caught my attention on this. What exactly are the passages in question. Generally when the Bible says one is “asleep”; they are physically dead. Please fill me in.

The best example I know is this: John 11
11 This He said, and after that He *said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep.” 12 The disciples then said to Him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” 13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep. 14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, 15 and I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, so that you may believe; but let us go to him.”

What I found interesting is the sheer amount of Greek words used in versus 11, 12, & 13 look at the Greek and the root words as well for asleep, sleep, sleep and dead - very interesting and many different words used. I would be interested in you analysis Joshua27

 

[Timothy_Piper]

It is true that Mary is not Jesus’ equal, but Mary’s dignity is much greater than ours and she is Queen of Heaven and Earth because her Son is King of Heaven and Earth. The Mother of the King in the Davidic line of Kings is always the Queen; it is never the wife of the king in the Davidic line who is the Queen.

Trust me; you do not want to compare her to the “queen of heaven”-FYI

It is amazing that God inspired His Word in the Old Testament and in the New Testament to be written as a comparison a thousand years apart when He compares the Ark of the Old Covenant to the Ark of the New Covenant.

1000 B.C. for King David and his Golden Box, the Ark of the Old Covenant in the Old Testament and about 1 A.D. for Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, the first tabernacle of Jesus our Lord in the New Testament.

The following website compares the two in a chart form:
catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0510fea5sb1.asp

Golden Box: Ark of the Old Covenant
The ark traveled to the house of Obed-edom in the hill country of Judea (2 Sam. 6:1–11).
**
Mary: Ark of the New Covenant**
Mary traveled to the house of Elizabeth and Zechariah in the hill country of Judea (Luke 1:39).

Golden Box: Ark of the Old Covenant
Dressed as a priest, David danced and leapt in front of the ark (2 Sam. 6:14).

Mary: Ark of the New Covenant
John the Baptist—of priestly lineage—leapt in his mother’s womb at the approach of Mary (Luke 1:41).

Golden Box: Ark of the Old Covenant
David asks, “How can the ark of the Lord come to me?” (2 Sam. 6:9).

Mary: Ark of the New Covenant
Elizabeth asks, “Why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” (Luke 1:43).

Golden Box: Ark of the Old Covenant
David shouts in the presence of the ark (2 Sam. 6:15).

Mary: Ark of the New Covenant
Elizabeth “exclaimed with a loud cry” in the presence of the Mary (Luke 1:42).

Golden Box: Ark of the Old Covenant
The ark remained in the house of Obed-edom for three months (2 Sam. 6:11).
Mary: Ark of the New Covenant

Mary remained in the house of Elizabeth for three months (Luke 1:56).
Golden Box: Ark of the Old Covenant
The house of Obed-edom was blessed by the presence of the ark (2 Sam. 6:11).

Mary: Ark of the New Covenant
The word blessed is used three times; surely the house was blessed by God (Luke 1:39–45).

Golden Box: Ark of the Old Covenant
The ark returns to its home and ends up in Jerusalem, where God’s presence and glory is revealed in the temple (2 Sam. 6:12; 1 Kgs. 8:9–11).

Mary: Ark of the New Covenant
Mary returns home and eventually ends up in Jerusalem, where she presents God incarnate in the temple (Luke 1:56; 2:21–22).

By Steve Ray

Paul states this in regards to the Bishop Timothy:

Philippians 2:28-30
Therefore I sent him the more eagerly, that when you see him again you may rejoice, and I may be less sorrowful. 29 Receive him therefore in the Lord with all gladness, and hold such men in esteem; 30 because for the work of Christ he came close to death, not regarding his life, to supply what was lacking in your service toward me.

We each have been given a role in the Body of Christ. They are not all the same.

Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

We each have been given a different measure of faith.

Ephesians 4:7
But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.

We each have been given a different measure of grace.

1 Thessalonians 5:12-13
And we urge you, brethren, to recognize those (bishops) who labor among you, and are over you in the Lord and admonish you, 13 and to esteem them very highly in love for their work’s sake. Be at peace among yourselves.

We each have different degrees of honor even though we all belong to the One Body of Christ.

I agree from the earthly or human perspective that we are commanded to have very high regard (double honor) for the pastors who protect/guard their flock and work hard at preaching and teaching. 1Tim. 5:17

As far as the amount of grace received; it varies from person to person because unmerited favor, God bestows in some measure to all of His creation. The amount of saving grace given to each Christian is exactly enough to make them them a Christian. Does the amount vary? I suspect it does, because we are saved from our sins. I lived 34 years in sin before being forgiven and I know some who were saved as early as 12 years old. It is an interesting thing to think of. For sure the amount of other graces certainly varies because common grace is poured on all creation and as you suggested, the gifts, from the human perspective can seem bigger than others. Say the usefulness of a knee versus the pinky finger. I have a feeling God does not look at it in human terms, but would be an interesting rabbit trail to look at.

Revelation 11:19, 12:1
Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail. 1 Now a great sign appeared in heaven:a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars.

Rev 12 refers to Israel, not Mary. The church is in heaven already, only Israel is yet to be redeemed. the OT passage to verify this is Genesis 37:9 ; it uses 11 because the speaker, Joseph is the twelfth.
Sorry, I do not buy into the Marian theology of any sort; I understand what Steve compared, but means nothing to me.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Sorry, but I have to disagree. It is a deeper understanding of Christ which enables Catholics to develop a unique compassion for the Virgin Mother. It is the understanding of both the Divine and human aspects of Jesus that create this love for the Mother. Being protestant however, may in fact be a part of the problem though, as being one separates you from many of the graces given to the Holy Church. This in effect limits your exposure to God, and creates a separation. Having only the Bible and prayer as your linkage to God, limits your openness to the Holy spirit. The Holy spirit gives you the grace to love the Mother.

I’m not saying that you get NO graces as you obviously do as a follower of Christ, I’m just saying that you don’t get ALL of them.

I’m sure that being a SS & OSAS Christian is part of the problem; so I agree. Deeper understanding of Christ only comes from the Scripture and this is a command from God through Peter to do so. Peter gives a warning when the person does not. The passage in conjunction with much of Scripture concerning the Holy Spirit who teaches and guides each believer as well, not a body of men. We know from studies, that Catholics, in general, read the Scripture the least of almost all denominations. I don’t believe it would apply to CAF Catholic members compared to the general population of Catholics. John 17:17; Jesus tells us in no uncertain terms how we are to be sanctified. If you really desire that sanctifying grace, then in His Word is where it will be found.

 

[Justy90]

\

Rev 12 refers to Israel, not Mary. The church is in heaven already, only Israel is yet to be redeemed. the OT passage to verify this is Genesis 37:9 ; it uses 11 because the speaker, Joseph is the twelfth.
Sorry, I do not buy into the Marian theology of any sort; I understand what Steve compared, but means nothing to me.

ditto for me.

 

[AmericanJosiah]

.

Two comments:

1. Reading some of the posts here, there seems to be a huge disconnect between what a verse says and what an interpreter thinks it might mean. They aren’t the same thing. What it says is limited by what it says – in words, created by letters (those black things). Now, ANYONE can think such MEANS whatever that one wants - such may be sound or absurd, that’s a whole other issue requiring arbitration and examination. But to insist, “The verse says…” when all literate people KNOW it does not seems to be less than honest and probably not a constructive conversation.
2. I’m still trying to figure out how most of the posts by our Catholic brothers and sisters here is substantiating that “non Catholics dislike Mary.”

.

 

[Justy90]

.

Two comments:

1. Reading some of the posts here, there seems to be a huge disconnect between what a verse says and what an interpreter thinks it might mean. They aren’t the same thing. What it says is limited by what it says – in words, created by letters (those black things). Now, ANYONE can think such MEANS whatever that one wants - such may be sound or absurd, that’s a whole other issue requiring arbitration and examination. But to insist, “The verse says…” when all literate people KNOW it does not seems to be less than honest and probably not a constructive conversation.
2. I’m still trying to figure out how most of the posts by our Catholic brothers and sisters here is substantiating that “non Catholics dislike Mary.”

.

If one does not accept everything that Catholic theology affirms to Mary, Catholics call it hate. It’s illogical and ridiculous.

 

[izoid]

.

Two comments:

1. Reading some of the posts here, there seems to be a huge disconnect between what a verse says and what an interpreter thinks it might mean. They aren’t the same thing. What it says is limited by what it says – in words, created by letters (those black things). Now, ANYONE can think such MEANS whatever that one wants - such may be sound or absurd, that’s a whole other issue requiring arbitration and examination. But to insist, “The verse says…” when all literate people KNOW it does not seems to be less than honest and probably not a constructive conversation.
2. I’m still trying to figure out how most of the posts by our Catholic brothers and sisters here is substantiating that “non Catholics dislike Mary.”

.

God gave us His Church as the pillar and foundation of truth to guide us in our understanding of the Word. When one goes outside of that authority, they risk improper interpretation. THis is exactly what has occurred to many of our protestant brothers and sisters.

There is a link in this post that verifies that SOME non Catholics hate Mary. You would have to be illeterate to not see it.

 

[izoid]

If one does not accept everything that Catholic theology affirms to Mary, Catholics call it hate. It’s illogical and ridiculous.

As is your comment.

 

[rwillenborg]

I have heard some people refer to Mary as ‘nothing more than a vessel’
Um, ew.
Just, ew.
As a mother, if someone said I was nothing more than a vessel for my children, I would smack them in the mouth. Luckily for us, Jesus is alot nicer than me.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

I have heard some people refer to Mary as ‘nothing more than a vessel’
Um, ew.
Just, ew.
As a mother, if someone said I was nothing more than a vessel for my children, I would smack them in the mouth. Luckily for us, Jesus is alot nicer than me.

2 Timothy 2:19-21
19 Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness.” 20 Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor. 21 Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these {things,} he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work. --I’m sure she was a vessel of honor; maybe they were referring to Scripture.

or perhaps from Romans 9
who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And {He did so} to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 {even} us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. – Mary was a vessel of honor, of mercy and certainly magnified the glory of God.

 

[rwillenborg]

2 Timothy 2:19-21
19 Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness.” 20 Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor. 21 Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these {things,} he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work. --I’m sure she was a vessel of honor; maybe they were referring to Scripture.

or perhaps from Romans 9
who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And {He did so} to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 {even} us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. – Mary was a vessel of honor, of mercy and certainly magnified the glory of God.

Hmmm…I wish you would have explained what you were trying to get at with these two passages.
Are you trying to say that you agree that a mother is nothing more than a vessel to carry children? Or are you trying to show that sometimes the Bible compares people to inanimate objects to arrive at a point (Jesus is a vine, etc.)?

They’re two different things, which is why I’m confused.
Maybe it’s all the mashed potatoes I ate…makes my brain work slower.