Why do non catholics dislike Mother Mary?

[veritas4Christ]

So now Mary is living in sin.The mother of God who was born without sin you are calling her a sinner. Lets see, she is a unmarried, pregnant teenager, living in sin with a man who is not her husband. Are you sure you want to stick with “where does it say Mary and Joseph were married thing?” You are questioning if Mary was indeed a married woman?

And this Joseph thing, you are really streatching it on this one.

Problem for you is, it wasn’t my argument. It was St. Jeromes.

 

[rev_kevin]

Common huh? Have you ever read any of the books about how to witness to Catholics? Have you ever come across protestant Sunday School classes on witnessing and had Catholics included as a group to witness to? Have you ever seen the Jack Chick tracts? Have you ever read John MAcArthur on the Catholic Church? Did you click on the link in this thread?

It is clear that much of protestantism sees Catholics as being in need of conversion. It is clear that it is protestants that are hostile towards Catholic teachings. Please don’t attempt to minimize or deny this, it only makes you less trustworthy in my eyes.

I can assure you that I have never been to a Catholic Church that taught us how to witness to protestants. I have never seen anti protestant websites that were run by Catholics. I have yet to find outwardly hostile Catholic books that attempt to convert protestants.

Temper, temper, temper.
Question 1. No
Question 2. In my class we don’t teach our children about witnessing.
Question 3. No
Question 4. No
Question 5. No

Do you know how many times I have been asked to come back to the church. Come back to being a Catholic and save yourself. How many times I have been asked to come to the true religion. A lot. I can’t speak for every non-Catholic here but I have seen it plenty of times.
Now I have also said, if you read my posts, that it goes both way.
I don’t believe I ever had your trust in the first place.
I can assure you that I have never been to a Catholic church or the Catholic school I went to taught us how to witness to Protestants eather. And I can assure you, but it won’t mean anything because you don’t trust me, that I have never been to a Protestant church or school that taught them how to witness to Catholics.
As far as the books, don’t blaim me I didn’t write them.
But you can’t say all Protestants are like that.
Really it goes both way.

 

[SHW]

… I see “until” her “first son” was born. But I see nowhere where it says she remained a virgin all through her life…
What makes you believe she remained a virgin?

A true Christian remains faithful to God until death. Do you think he/she is no longer faithful after death?

I believe that Mary remained a perpetual virgin because this is what Jesus’ Church teaches.

Scripture is pointing out the fact that Mary was a virgin when she conceived Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit. Otherwise, people might believe that Jesus was Joseph’s natural son, instead of the Son of the Most High God.

John 6:42
And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”

Was Mary a Perpetual Virgin?
catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0512sbs.asp

Hopefully this article will help you understand more completely.

 

[izoid]

So now Mary is living in sin.The mother of God who was born without sin you are calling her a sinner. Lets see, she is a unmarried, pregnant teenager, living in sin with a man who is not her husband. Are you sure you want to stick with “where does it say Mary and Joseph were married thing?” You are questioning if Mary was indeed a married woman?

And this Joseph thing, you are really streatching it on this one.

It would only be sinful if they were having sex, right?

 

[rev_kevin]

Problem for you is, it wasn’t my argument. It was St. Jeromes.

So a Saint is saying that. Nice guy saying that about the blessed virgin Mary isn’t he.
And you just had to repeat it didn’t you.
Are you proud that he said that about Mary not being married?
I have no problem. I don’t repeat blaphemy.

 

[rev_kevin]

It would only be sinful if they were having sex, right?

How do you know they weren’t?

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Herod was a king and he was actually an evil king, but his evilness as king does not make Jesus an evil king. Jesus is a good king. So here is an example of both a bad king and a good king. We Christians have a Father in heaven whom we call God who is all good, but Satan is called the father of all the evil persons who lie. (John 8:44) So, we have an example of both a good Father and a bad father. Satan is a fallen angel, but we have many good angels such as Michael and Gabriel. Both good and evil kings exist, both good and evil fathers exist, and both good and evil angels exist.

1 Peter 3:21-22
Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

Jesus is now king. His current and eternal status is King of heaven and earth. It makes no difference to Jesus’ present status in heaven as king that there were also many evil kings who came before Him.

There are Scriptural references to a pagan goddess whom they called the queen of heaven (Jeremiah 7:18). This goddess who was called the queen of heaven is not the real queen of heaven because the real queen of heaven is the mother of Jesus and she is definitely not a goddess.

Mary, the mother of Jesus the king of heaven and earth, receives her status as queen of heaven because the mothers of the kings in the Davidic line of kings are ALWAYS called queens in the Davidic kingdom. No mere man such as yourself can take this honor away from Mary nor can you negate her importance by choosing to believe that she is not the queen of heaven and earth. Jesus bestowed the “future” honor of queen upon her when He chose her to be His mother “before” He actually was crowned King. She received her crown as queen after she entered into heaven just as Jesus received His crown after He ascended into heaven. (Revelation 1:5)

This is symbolic and can mean more than one thing. The woman is crowned with **twelve **stars and this can be symbolic for the twelve tribes of Israel. A crown means royalty. The Church was first headed by the twelve apostles so these may also be in her crown because she also symbolizes the Church. And, the woman can also be Mary, the Mother of Jesus, the Ark of the New Covenant, because she is greater than all the twelve stars in her crown. Her dignity comes through her Son, our Lord and Savior and King.

Rev 12 can refer to either Mary, or to the Church, and/or also to Israel depending on the particular lesson that the Church is teaching concerning this symbolism. Your choosing to not believe alters nothing in the heavenly realm. Mary will forever be the queen of heaven and earth whether you believe it or not (while you are on earth). I am very thankful that I have been given the grace to believe this truth because I can and do give her the honor that she merits even while I am still on earth. It pleases Jesus that I honor His mother. He honors her eternally as His queen mother. (Matthew 15:4)

I agree I cannot remove a status not bestowed by God anymore than you can add a status not bestowed by God. So best to keep her in Scripture as she is; I’m certain she would prefer it that way. Just saying.

 

[rev_kevin]

A true Christian remains faithful to God until death. Do you think they are no longer faithful after death?

Scripture is pointing out the fact that Mary was a virgin when she conceived Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit. Otherwise, people might believe that Jesus was Joseph’s natural son, instead of the Son of the Most High God.

John 6:42
And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”

Was Mary a Perpetual Virgin?
catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0512sbs.asp

Hopefully this article will help you understand more completely.

Never disputed the fact that she was a virgin when she go pregnant. Its the after Jesus was born part.

 

[izoid]

Temper, temper, temper.
Question 1. No
Question 2. In my class we don’t teach our children about witnessing.
Question 3. No
Question 4. No
Question 5. No

Do you know how many times I have been asked to come back to the church. Come back to being a Catholic and save yourself. How many times I have been asked to come to the true religion. A lot. I can’t speak for every non-Catholic here but I have seen it plenty of times.
Now I have also said, if you read my posts, that it goes both way.
I don’t believe I ever had your trust in the first place.
I can assure you that I have never been to a Catholic church or the Catholic school I went to taught us how to witness to Protestants eather. And I can assure you, but it won’t mean anything because you don’t trust me, that I have never been to a Protestant church or school that taught them how to witness to Catholics.
As far as the books, don’t blaim me I didn’t write them.
But you can’t say all Protestants are like that. y.
Really it goes both way.

I do not know what Baptist church you are apart of but I find it very difficult to believe that you haven’t been exposed to any anti Catholicism in your protestant life. Do some research on the names that I mentioned and maybe you ill see why we are a bit “sensitive”. Do a google search on “Reasoning with Catholics from Scripture”. It is not some paranoia that we have. There is a very hostile anti Catholic movement within conservative evangelicalism.

BTW…I was speaking of adult Sunday school, not children.

Maybe it does go both ways but that doesn’t lessen our sensitivity to it. Remember, this is a Catholic website and you chose to come here (I am glad you did btw.) so you have to expect to get the Catholic version of the story. That should not surprise you at all.

 

[izoid]

How do you know they weren’t?

Because scripture doesn’t say they were.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Rev 12 can refer to either Mary, or to the Church, and/or also to Israel depending on the particular lesson that the Church is teaching concerning this symbolism. Your choosing to not believe alters nothing in the heavenly realm. Mary will forever be the queen of heaven and earth whether you believe it or not (while you are on earth). I am very thankful that I have been given the grace to believe this truth because I can and do give her the honor that she merits even while I am still on earth. It pleases Jesus that I honor His mother. He honors her eternally as His queen mother. (Matthew 15:4)

Anyone can make Scripture say what they want, but the Truth does not change, which is why it is the Truth…it is the same whether you or I are here or were never born. The Truth is that Revelation 12 speaks of Israel and has nothing to do with Mary unless you can somehow put the Genesis account to refer to Mary as well, which given enough thought and time can be done as well. Like they say at burger King “have it your way”.

 

[SHW]

I agree I cannot remove a status not bestowed by God anymore than you can add a status not bestowed by God. So best to keep her in Scripture as she is; I’m certain she would prefer it that way. Just saying.

I did not add queenship to her status. God bestowed it upon her. How do I know this? Because this is what Jesus’ Catholic Church taught me.

Scripture is only part of the revelation from God which He gave to His Church. There is also the oral traditions which are part of His revelation and we are commanded to believe both the oral traditions and the written traditions (Scripture) of His Church which He handed down through His apostles and their successors.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

1 Corinthians 11:2
Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you.

1 Corinthians 14:37
If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.

The Church is the support and foundation of the truth, not Scripture.

1 Timothy 3:15
but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

If we listen to His One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church which He founded upon Peter, the apostles, and the prophets; then we hear Him.

Luke 10:16
He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.”

Matthew 18:17
And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

 

[veritas4Christ]

So a Saint is saying that. Nice guy saying that about the blessed virgin Mary isn’t he.
And you just had to repeat it didn’t you.
Are you proud that he said that about Mary not being married?
I have no problem. I don’t repeat blaphemy.

Rev, you missing the point. It’s your mind that is the problem.

My reference to 1 Corinthians 7:36-38 was to show you that celibate relationships, ie where both the man and woman have decided to remain virgins, within the early Christian community were accepted - despite the fact that your mind cannot grasp this. Now, let’s take this one step further - possibly celibate marriages were practised based on the example of Mary and Joseph.

 

[PRmerger]

So now Mary is living in sin.

No, Mary was not living in sin, kevin.

Mary did not sin.

Again, there is nothing objectively wrong about being pregnant and unmarried. Indeed, many WW2 brides were pregnant and became widows–i.e became unmarried. No one in my church condemns that situation!

It’s the way that you got into that condition which determines if you were sinning or not.

 

[PRmerger]

Lets see, she is a unmarried, pregnant teenager, living in sin with a man who is not her husband.

Where does the CC teach that Mary was “living in sin with a man who is not her husband?” Document and Pope, please.

 

[SHW]

Never disputed the fact that she was a virgin when she go pregnant. Its the after Jesus was born part.

Yes, it is hard for persons who live in the over-sexed culture of the 21 Century to understand how a person or persons can remain in that state after marriage.

However, I can see that it could be advantageous for two persons to be married even though both had vowed (or decided) to remain lifelong virgins. This was acceptable in ancient Jewish culture.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I just can’t buy that a married couple will not have relations. I see no evidence in the Bible that say she was. I see “until” her “first son” was born. But I see nowhere where it says she remained a virgin all through her life. If you were married, I don’t know if you are or not, and your spose wouldn’t have relations with you, would you think that was normal? Would it be normal?
What makes you believe she remained a virgin?

According to the Old Testament, it was possible for a woman to take a vow of abstinence that bound her father and husband.

Numbers chapter 30 explains vows of abstinence according to the law of Moses.

**1
Moses then gave the Israelites these instructions, just as the LORD had ordered him.
2
Moses said to the heads of the Israelite tribes, "This is what the LORD has commanded:
3
1 When a man makes a vow to the LORD or binds himself under oath to a pledge of abstinence, he shall not violate his word, but must fulfill exactly the promise he has uttered.
4
"When a woman, while still a maiden in her father’s house, makes a vow to the LORD, or binds herself to a pledge,
5
if her father learns of her vow or the pledge to which she bound herself and says nothing to her about it, then any vow or any pledge she has made remains valid.
6
But if on the day he learns of it her father expresses to her his disapproval, then any vow or any pledge she has made becomes null and void; and the LORD releases her from it, since her father has expressed to her his disapproval.
7
"If she marries while under a vow or under a rash pledge to which she bound herself,
8
and her husband learns of it, yet says nothing to her that day about it, then the vow or pledge she had made remains valid.
9
But if on the day he learns of it her husband expresses to her his disapproval, he thereby annuls the vow she had made or the rash pledge to which she had bound herself, and the LORD releases her from it.
10
The vow of a widow or of a divorced woman, or any pledge to which such a woman binds herself, is valid.
11
2 "If it is in her husband’s house that she makes a vow or binds herself under oath to a pledge,
12
and her husband learns of it yet says nothing to express to her his disapproval, then any vow or any pledge she has made remains valid.
13
But if on the day he learns of them her husband annuls them, then whatever she has expressly promised in her vow or in her pledge becomes null and void; since her husband has annulled them, the LORD releases her from them.
14
“Any vow or any pledge that she makes under oath to mortify herself, her husband can either allow to remain valid or render null and void.
15
But if her husband, day after day, says nothing at all to her about them, he thereby allows as valid any vow or any pledge she has made; he has allowed them to remain valid, because on the day he learned of them he said nothing to her about them.
16
3 If, however, he countermands them some time after he first learned of them, he is responsible for her guilt.”
17
These are the statutes which the LORD prescribed through Moses concerning the relationship between a husband and his wife, as well as between a father and his daughter while she is still a maiden in her father’s house. **

It seems to be evidence from the Bible that you say you cannot find…

 

[rev_kevin]

I do not know what Baptist church you are apart of but I find it very difficult to believe that you haven’t been exposed to any anti Catholicism in your protestant life. Do some research on the names that I mentioned and maybe you ill see why we are a bit “sensitive”. Do a google search on “Reasoning with Catholics from Scripture”. It is not some paranoia that we have. There is a very hostile anti Catholic movement within conservative evangelicalism.

BTW…I was speaking of adult Sunday school, not children.

Maybe it does go both ways but that doesn’t lessen our sensitivity to it. Remember, this is a Catholic website and you chose to come here (I am glad you did btw.) so you have to expect to get the Catholic version of the story. That should not surprise you at all.

Before I became a 6th grade Sunday School teacher I was in a adult class and no we at my church do not teach, speak, or say anything about the Catholic faith. We have a certain agenda we have to stick with and its not in or on our agenda to say anything negitave about another faith. I guess we are on of the good ones.

I’ll look at what you recommended.
thanks

 

[SHW]

Anyone can make Scripture say what they want, but the Truth does not change, which is why it is the Truth…it is the same whether you or I are here or were never born. The Truth is that Revelation 12 speaks of Israel and has nothing to do with Mary unless you can somehow put the Genesis account to refer to Mary as well, which given enough thought and time can be done as well. Like they say at burger King “have it your way”.

This is only **YOUR **interpretation. I do not happen to believe your interpretation because you have no **authority **to interpret Scripture and therefore you can easily twist the Scriptures to make them seem like they support your own personal interpretation of them. 2 Peter 3:16, 2 Peter 1:20

I will continue to listen to Jesus’ One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church because if I hear what His Church is teaching, then I am hearing Him. Luke 10:16, Matthew 18:17

 

[rev_kevin]

According to the Old Testament, it was possible for a woman to take a vow of abstinence that bound her father and husband.

Numbers chapter 30 explains vows of abstinence according to the law of Moses.

**1
Moses then gave the Israelites these instructions, just as the LORD had ordered him.
2
Moses said to the heads of the Israelite tribes, "This is what the LORD has commanded:
3
1 When a man makes a vow to the LORD or binds himself under oath to a pledge of abstinence, he shall not violate his word, but must fulfill exactly the promise he has uttered.
4
"When a woman, while still a maiden in her father’s house, makes a vow to the LORD, or binds herself to a pledge,
5
if her father learns of her vow or the pledge to which she bound herself and says nothing to her about it, then any vow or any pledge she has made remains valid.
6
But if on the day he learns of it her father expresses to her his disapproval, then any vow or any pledge she has made becomes null and void; and the LORD releases her from it, since her father has expressed to her his disapproval.
7
"If she marries while under a vow or under a rash pledge to which she bound herself,
8
and her husband learns of it, yet says nothing to her that day about it, then the vow or pledge she had made remains valid.
9
But if on the day he learns of it her husband expresses to her his disapproval, he thereby annuls the vow she had made or the rash pledge to which she had bound herself, and the LORD releases her from it.
10
The vow of a widow or of a divorced woman, or any pledge to which such a woman binds herself, is valid.
11
2 "If it is in her husband’s house that she makes a vow or binds herself under oath to a pledge,
12
and her husband learns of it yet says nothing to express to her his disapproval, then any vow or any pledge she has made remains valid.
13
But if on the day he learns of them her husband annuls them, then whatever she has expressly promised in her vow or in her pledge becomes null and void; since her husband has annulled them, the LORD releases her from them.
14
“Any vow or any pledge that she makes under oath to mortify herself, her husband can either allow to remain valid or render null and void.
15
But if her husband, day after day, says nothing at all to her about them, he thereby allows as valid any vow or any pledge she has made; he has allowed them to remain valid, because on the day he learned of them he said nothing to her about them.
16
3 If, however, he countermands them some time after he first learned of them, he is responsible for her guilt.”
17
These are the statutes which the LORD prescribed through Moses concerning the relationship between a husband and his wife, as well as between a father and his daughter while she is still a maiden in her father’s house. **

It seems to be evidence from the Bible that you say you cannot find…

I don’t see anywhere in the Bible where Mary said or took a vow to be a virgin all her life. If I’m wrong please point it out to me.