Why do non catholics dislike Mother Mary?

[SHW]

According to the Old Testament, it was possible for a woman to take a vow of abstinence that bound her father and husband.

Numbers chapter 30 explains vows of abstinence according to the law of Moses.

**1
Moses then gave the Israelites these instructions, just as the LORD had ordered him.
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Moses said to the heads of the Israelite tribes, "This is what the LORD has commanded:
3
1 When a man makes a vow to the LORD or binds himself under oath to a pledge of abstinence, he shall not violate his word, but must fulfill exactly the promise he has uttered.
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"When a woman, while still a maiden in her father’s house, makes a vow to the LORD, or binds herself to a pledge,
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if her father learns of her vow or the pledge to which she bound herself and says nothing to her about it, then any vow or any pledge she has made remains valid.
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But if on the day he learns of it her father expresses to her his disapproval, then any vow or any pledge she has made becomes null and void; and the LORD releases her from it, since her father has expressed to her his disapproval.
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"If she marries while under a vow or under a rash pledge to which she bound herself,
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and her husband learns of it, yet says nothing to her that day about it, then the vow or pledge she had made remains valid.
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But if on the day he learns of it her husband expresses to her his disapproval, he thereby annuls the vow she had made or the rash pledge to which she had bound herself, and the LORD releases her from it.
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The vow of a widow or of a divorced woman, or any pledge to which such a woman binds herself, is valid.
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2 "If it is in her husband’s house that she makes a vow or binds herself under oath to a pledge,
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and her husband learns of it yet says nothing to express to her his disapproval, then any vow or any pledge she has made remains valid.
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But if on the day he learns of them her husband annuls them, then whatever she has expressly promised in her vow or in her pledge becomes null and void; since her husband has annulled them, the LORD releases her from them.
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“Any vow or any pledge that she makes under oath to mortify herself, her husband can either allow to remain valid or render null and void.
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But if her husband, day after day, says nothing at all to her about them, he thereby allows as valid any vow or any pledge she has made; he has allowed them to remain valid, because on the day he learned of them he said nothing to her about them.
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3 If, however, he countermands them some time after he first learned of them, he is responsible for her guilt.”
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These are the statutes which the LORD prescribed through Moses concerning the relationship between a husband and his wife, as well as between a father and his daughter while she is still a maiden in her father’s house. **

It seems to be evidence from the Bible that you say you cannot find…

Thank you for posting this.

 

[rev_kevin]

Yes, it is hard for persons who live in the over-sexed culture of the 21 Century to understand how a person or persons can remain in that state after marriage.

However, I can see that it could be advantageous for two persons to be married even though both had vowed (or decided) to remain lifelong virgins. This was acceptable in ancient Jewish culture.

Show me where in the Bible where is says they took a vow or dicided to remain lifelong virgins. Give me a site where I can find out if this was the practice and acceptable in ancient Jewish culture. Please.

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t see anywhere in the Bible where Mary said or took a vow to be a virgin all her life. If I’m wrong please point it out to me.

Luke 1:34.

How can this be since I know not man?

Remember, the Blessed Mary is betrothed–i.e. married but not living with Joseph. An angel appears to her and tells her she’s going to conceive a child.

If she’s planning to engage in marital relations, then she answers: Awesome! When?

If she’s planning to remain a virgin all of her life she asks the question she asks in Luke 1:34.

Otherwise, why does she ask the question of an angel that tells her, an engaged/betrothed/married woman she’s ***going to ***conceive a child? The question is an important one, indeed!

 

[SHW]

I don’t see anywhere in the Bible where Mary said or took a vow to be a virgin all her life. If I’m wrong please point it out to me.

I don’t see any Scripture in the Bible that states that “Scripture alone” defines and/or restricts our Christian faith traditions so why do you believe it?

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

1 Corinthians 11:2
Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you.

John 21:25
And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen.

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t see anywhere in the Bible where Mary said or took a vow to be a virgin all her life. If I’m wrong please point it out to me.

And here’s another one:

And the Lord said to me: This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall pass through it: because the Lord the God of Israel hath entered in by it, and it shall be shut–Ezekiel 44:2

 

[Timothy_Piper]

John 17:14-19
I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.

The context: His Word is the gospel. His truth is His gospel. Jesus is speaking of the leaders of His Church and He is praying for them. Jesus gave them His authority to minister His New Covenant just as Moses was given His authority to minister His Old Covenant.

He is not speaking of “individuals” who pick up the Bible and try to interpret it for themselves. He is speaking of His personally chosen leaders of His Church and He said that they speak for…edit…using to listen to Him.

Try context; it does help give correct meaning. You should have read further and whatever Jesus prays for does, has, and will come to pass.
17 "Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth. 18 "As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 "For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.

20 ***"I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. ***—Plus the church did not exist at this point as well.

Matthew 18:17
And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

Luke 10:16
He who hears you (Church leaders) hears Me, he who rejects you (Church leaders) rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.

All that the leaders of His Church teach both orally (word) and written (epistle) are the commandments of the Lord.

Anyone can impose on Scripture as you did. There is one truth in any given passage, but it can have and often does have more than one application, as is the case the the person who gives the gospel and rejects it; did they reject the messenger or the message? Do you see the point. I can give you the gospel and you will either accept it or reject it; the power is always in the message, the messenger is the chosen vessel and all Christians are called to be able to give an account of the hope that is in them.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

1 Corinthians 14:37
If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.

The Church leaders and their successors rule over us in the faith.

----1 Co is addressed to the church in Corinth, the entire church. So is 2 Thessalonians, to all the faithful Christians at Thessalonian. You impose and add or change Scripture to fit your belief system; the story of man and religion.

Hebrews 13:17
Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.

1 Thessalonians 5:12
And we urge you, brethren, to recognize those who labor among you, and are over you in the Lord and admonish you,

Jesus set up a hierarchy in His Church. It does not matter if some people do not like it. He is Lord and this is His command.

He gave us deacons and elders, that it. the Elders are to protect and feed the flock, feeding is preaching and teaching. The Deacons or servants are to assist the congregation and help the Elders fulfill their responsibilities, but beyond that nothing and it is always at the local level as we can easily discern from Scripture.

1 Timothy 3:1
This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work.

1 Timothy 3:10
But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless.

Apostolic succession:

Sorry, but that is a real imposition to the point of perverting the Word of God, which we are “commanded” to rightly divide the word of God if we are going to be teaching.

No person is supposed to buy a Bible and then start his own new religion based upon his own private interpretation. Jesus has a Church already set up to minister to His followers.

2 Peter 1:20
knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation

Why do so many buy into the private interpretation of men? The Bible says that interpretation is the work of the Holy Spirit. This is why several times He is referred to as the Spirit of Truth, the Spirit of Promise - He is the same Spirit and when He takes up residence in a person, which is a Christian, His job is to interpret Scripture, which means He leads and teaches the Truth to each to whom He indwells and it is all over the Scripture. We are commanded to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. How can this be accomplished by men? Can it be done by the Holy Spirit working in and through a Christian?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I don’t see anywhere in the Bible where Mary said or took a vow to be a virgin all her life. If I’m wrong please point it out to me.

rev kevin,

There are many things that are only inferred in scriptures, many of your own beliefs in fact. Does the Bible specifically state ‘Trinity’? The Bible doesn’t say scriptures are the sole authority, nor does it teach man to make his own private interpretation. Where does scriptures say someone has to ‘ask Christ into their heart’ to be saved? It only states one has to ‘believe’…

I was providing you evidence of how it was possible for a young woman to bind herself to abstinence that even her husband had to honor, under the law of Moses, which Mary and Joseph were under when they met and even married.

I know there will be complaints if we bring up Church authority, but it’s a teaching of our Church that Mary remained ever virgin. Now, it seems to me, Church authority has to be discussed, which brings us to the validity of tradition plus scriptures. Catholic tradition pre-dates the canon of the Bible being defined. Everything was taught, as Christ commanded, orally. Why would you want to forget what was spoken through the Church Christ built, especially in light of the fact of when the Bible canon was defined?

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmericanJosiah
.
Two comments:

1. Reading some of the posts here, there seems to be a huge disconnect between what a verse says and what an interpreter thinks it might mean. They aren’t the same thing. What it says is limited by what it says – in words, created by letters (those black things). Now, ANYONE can think such MEANS whatever that one wants - such may be sound or absurd, that’s a whole other issue requiring arbitration and examination. But to insist, “The verse says…” when all literate people KNOW it does not seems to be less than honest and probably not a constructive conversation.
2. I’m still trying to figure out how most of the posts by our Catholic brothers and sisters here is substantiating that “non Catholics dislike Mary.”

---

Perhaps a better title for the post should have been: “Why are nonCatholics indifferent to Mary?” There would have been a different dynamic at work with this title rather than with the word ‘dislike’.

As for # 1, I would trust the Church’s interpretation of Mary in the role of salvation history because the Church knows Her own Scriptures inside and out, and has theologically found analogies that make sense. To attempt to divorce the Scriptures from the Church that gave them to the world is not only preposterous but leads to serious errors in interpretation.

Must be two sets of divine revelation called by the title of Scripture???

 

[rev_kevin]

This is only **YOUR **interpretation. I do not happen to believe your interpretation because you have no **authority **to interpret Scripture and therefore you can easily twist the Scriptures to make them seem like they support your own personal interpretation of them. 2 Peter 3:16, 2 Peter 1:20

I will continue to listen to Jesus’ One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church because if I hear what His Church is teaching, then I am hearing Him. Luke 10:16, Matthew 18:17

I ask you to show me different. Show me where I’m wrong. I have read your dogmas on Mary and they don’t say they were inspired from God It says "this dogma was declared by the church of Ephesus in the year 431. The concil of Ephesus with more than 200 Bishops presided over by St, Cyril or Alexandia Representing Pope Celestin 1. defended the true personal unity of Christ, declared Mary the mother of God {theotokos} Against Nestorius, Bishop of Constantinople.
I just see a some men who say this is what it is going to be.But its your dogma and I expect you to believe what they tell you to.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Those who don’t love Mary dont fully know Jesus, you say.
Thats a doctrine of your own imagination, sir.
This is exactly the point where I think some Catholic devotion to Mary turns disproportionate, when she is used in the way that you now do, to make a persons relationship with Christ depend on ones relationship to Mary.
As for me, my relationship with Mary depends on Jesus entirely. Not the other way around.
The Holy Spirit leads me to Jesus. Mary in her self leads me to no one. Jesus leads me to to His Father… and then Jesus introduced me to His Mother Mary and told me, “be happy about Mary, because she has been so good to me and brought me so much joy”.

My relationship with Mary became more strained after I heard enough of the kind of talk that you represent, which uses Mary as a scism and sometimes tends to put her in the center. I rather prefer an israeli kind of worship, which is very Godcentred, like also the spirituality of the apostles, and eg. St Patrick.

I’ll tell you what. Since the beginning I have loved especially the image of Jesus as my Brother. Yet when I had my conversion experience it did not happen within the Catholic Church. I know bunches of Christians from all kinds of churches, and all over the churches there are people that have fallen asleep and there are people who love and serve Jesus full of the fire of the Holy Spirit. This is the wish of Mary and she is wholly content when she looks at these people, I am sure. Many of these people do not have a personal relationship with Mary at all.
You can say that, for your self, Mary has made it easier for you to be a good Catholic and you find her a help when it comes to meditating on the fact that God has adopted you so that you are son of God - in a purely human sense, Jesus is not more your brother than any other neighbour - its God the Father who has adopted you in Christ to be his son and the brother of Christ. Dont forget that.

I am happy for you that Mary has inspired you. But dont make Mary into a measure of Christian worship and love for Jesus, in any sense of the word. You are so wrong if you do that.

Peace to you.

amen

 

[Timothy_Piper]

MARY AND OTHER CHILDREN

 I have wondered how Catholic-approved translations of the gospels handle Matt 1:25. My New English Bible says that Joseph "took Mary home to be his wife, but had no intercourse with her until her son was born. And he named the child Jesus."

 The King James Version says  that Joseph "knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son, and he called his name Jesus." 

  The New International Version states that Joseph "had no union with her until she gave birth to a son...." 

 The Living Bible says that "she remained a virgin until her Son was born...."

  The Revised Standard Version reads that Joseph "knew her not until she had borne a son...."

   Phillips Modern English translation reads that Joseph "married Mary, but had no intercourse with her until she had given birth to a son...."

   All these suggest that Mary and Joseph lived as a normal married couple after Jesus was born, sharing physical intimacy, which suggests that they could have had additional children. I guess I don't understand why the Catholic position is to fiercely maintain that Mary remained a life-long virgin. The verse certainly doesn't suggest that, and without mentioning the references to the brothers of Jesus elsewhere in the gospels. And why is it better to live as a life-long married virgin than to be a married woman and have normal relations with your husband? I guess I'll never get that. They seem more like a "Holy Family' if they lived as a healthy, bonafide family. Besides, it seems to make normal sexual relations within marriage somehow inferior to perpetual virginity, which to me is in contradiction to God's first command in Genesis: "Be fruitful and multiply."

  Mary certainly deserves our affection and gratitude, but has Catholicism carried veneration of Mary too far? That is the issue between Catholicism and Protestantism.

  Merry Christmas to all (since we have 11 days left) and a blessed New Year to Catholics, Protestants and people of every creed, color and country.

We know that, but we don’t subscribe to Marian theology either. Blessing to you and good post.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

We had this same discussion on a post called “Trinity and Hellfire is a fales teaching” but all of a sudden its not here anymore. I believe that Mary the mother of Jesus has other children and I have been looking into the whole thing for the discussion on the thread I mentioned.

Someone told me that whole threads will mysteriously disappear; any suggestions as to why? Outdated or something?

 

[PRmerger]

This is why several times He is referred to as the Spirit of Truth, the Spirit of Promise - He is the same Spirit and when He takes up residence in a person, which is a Christian, His job is to interpret Scripture, which means He leads and teaches the Truth to each to whom He indwells and it is all over the Scripture. We are commanded to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. How can this be accomplished by men? Can it be done by the Holy Spirit working in and through a Christian?

Which Holy Spirit do you mean, Timothy?

Is it the one that tells the Lutherans the Eucharist is the true presence of Christ, and then tell the Baptists it is only a symbol?

Is it the one that tells the Methodists it is alright to have female ministers, and then tells the Baptists it is unbiblical?

Is it the one that tells the Seventh Day Adventists that Saturday is the day of worship, and then tells the Presbyterians the day of worship is Sunday and not Saturday?

Is it the one that tells the Lutherans that the Blessed Virgin Mary was and remains always virgin, and then tells the Baptists she had other children?

How can the Holy Spirit tell the Baptists, ‘once saved always saved’, and then tell the Church of Christ that Sola Fides is unscriptural?

How can the Holy Spirit tell Episcopalians to baptize infants and then tell Pentecostals infant baptism is invalid?

How can the Holy Spirit tell Mormons that the Holy Trinity is three separate persons, and then tell Methodists the Trinity is three persons in one GOD??
Source: here

 

[Timothy_Piper]

If you go back and read this thread you will see that this has been gone over ad naseum.

There is nothing to indicate that the had sexual relations. The term is used to show that they did not have sex at all, before or during her pregnancy. It in no ways asserts that they had sex after.

Go through the thread as the issue has been dealt with in much more detail.

How do you get other children mentioned explicitly, were they all conceived by the holy Spirit?

 

[Timothy_Piper]

The charge:
“Mary obviously had ‘other children’ because the Bible says Jesus had ‘brothers and sisters’.”
Let us look at the charge itself, as it has no merit whatsoever from the very beginning…
The word “brothers” and “sisters”, as used in the context of the detractors, means a sibling of the same parents. Let us use reasoning and common sense on this issue.

1. The “brothers” of Jesus Christ would obviously have to have the same parents as He.
2. The parents of Jesus Christ are the Blessed Virgin Mary and the Holy Spirit.
3. Children receive their nature from their father.
4. Therefore, Jesus Christ has a divine nature from the Holy Spirit. That makes Him a divine person.
5. If Jesus Christ had brothers and sisters, then their natures would be the same as His.
6. Therefore, all “brothers and sisters” of Jesus Christ would be divine as He is, thus giving us multiple god’s. Not only that, it would give us goddesses, or female god’s as well.
7. The statement, “Jesus Christ has brothers and sisters” is obviously ambiguous and is an incorrect usage of the English language.
8. The false charge that “Mary had other children” assumes that the father of the siblings is
   Saint Joseph.
9. If Saint Joseph is the father of the “brothers and sisters”, then using rule #3 above, would show that the siblings are of his human nature and are not divine.
10. The “other children” of Saint Joseph and Mary, however, would be “half brothers and half sisters” to Jesus Christ, and not “brothers and sisters” as the accusers charge.
11. However, the Bible does not say, Jesus Christ had “half brothers and half sisters” either does it? In fact, it really does not say that Jesus Christ had any brothers or sisters at all.

Bob Stanley

LOL… that was very funny and I appreciate the laugh. So all of Jesus brothers and sister are also divine? How many Gods and Goddesses are their now? i’m just joking, but I hope you see the point of the flawed logic.

 

[rev_kevin]

Rev, you missing the point. It’s your mind that is the problem.

My reference to 1 Corinthians 7:36-38 was to show you that celibate relationships, ie where both the man and woman have decided to remain virgins, within the early Christian community were accepted - despite the fact that your mind cannot grasp this. Now, let’s take this one step further - possibly celibate marriages were practised based on the example of Mary and Joseph.

! Corinthians 7:36-38 {36}“But if he has passions and time is pasing, it is all right, it is not a sin. Let them Marry. {37} But if he has decided firmly not to marry and there is no urgency and he can control his passion, he does well not to marry. {38} So the person who marries does well, and the preson who doesn’t marry does even better.”

When talking about the unmarried person does even better, Paul is talking about the prtential time available for service to God. The single person don’t have the responsibility of caring for a spouse and raising a family.

Well since Jesus was born I guess this knocks them out.

 

[PRmerger]

How do you get other children mentioned explicitly, were they all conceived by the holy Spirit?

Did Jesus have brothers?

1. Jesus had a “brother” named James.

"Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas?”(Matthew 13:55)

1. James, the Lord’s “brother”, is an apostle.

“Then, after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas, and remained with him fifteen days. But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother. (Galatians 1:18-19)

1. There are two apostles named James.

“When morning came, he called his disciples to him and chose twelve of them, whom he also designated apostles: Simon (whom he named Peter), his brother Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Simon who was called the Zealot, Judas son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.”(Luke 6:13-16)

1. One James (the brother of John) is not the uterine brother of Jesus; his father is Zebedee.

“James son of Zebedee and his brother John (to them he gave the name Boanerges, which means Sons of Thunder)” (Mark 3:17)

1. The other apostle named James is not the uterine brother of Jesus; his father is Alpheus.

“And when it was day, he called his disciples, and chose from them twelve, whom he called apostles: Simon, whom he named Peter and Andrew his brother, and James and John and Philip and Bartholomew, and Matthew and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, and Judas the son of James and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.” (Luke 6:13-16)

1. Therefore, neither apostle named James was a uterine brother of Jesus.
2. The man named Joseph (or Joses) is not the uterine brother of Jesus; his mother is Mary and his brother is James. Therefore, this Mary is the wife of Alphaeus.

“Many women were there, watching from a distance. They had followed Jesus from Galilee to care for his needs. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee’s sons.” (Matthew 27:55-56)

1. Judas is not a uterine brother of Jesus because he is the son of James.

“When they arrived, they went upstairs to the room where they were staying. Those present were Peter, John, James and Andrew; Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew; James son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James.” (Acts 1:13)

1. While Matthew 15:35 declares James, Joseph and Judas to be the “brothers” of Jesus, it has been demonstrated from scripture that they are NOT uterine brothers of the Lord. From this, it is apparent that scripture must be using the term “brothers” to mean relatives other than sons of Mary.
   Source: Randy Carson, CAF
   Original Post.

 

[rev_kevin]

Someone told me that whole threads will mysteriously disappear; any suggestions as to why? Outdated or something?

No wasn’t out dated. There are some here that have been on a lot longer then that one was. I was on it yesterday or day before, Got off the site to eat. After eating I came back to discuss more on it and it was gone. I looked and looked and it is no where to be found.
It was about Mary what is being discussed here.

 

[rev_kevin]

No, Mary was not living in sin, kevin.

Mary did not sin.

Again, there is nothing objectively wrong about being pregnant and unmarried. Indeed, many WW2 brides were pregnant and became widows–i.e became unmarried. No one in my church condemns that situation!

It’s the way that you got into that condition which determines if you were sinning or not.

The WW2 thing they were married and he died hense, they are widows, Its not like they were never married.

Now the again part.
If there is nothing objectively wrong about being pregnant and unmarried than why does the Catholic church look down on it and call it a sin?

So is the church now condoning unmarried pregnancy?

Are they now saying its ok to be pregnant and not married?

When did this change?

 

[rev_kevin]

Where does the CC teach that Mary was “living in sin with a man who is not her husband?” Document and Pope, please.

I didn’t say in this part that you have pointed out that the CC was teaching it. Its just a observation. Ya know when a man and woman who aren’t married and living together its said they are living in sin.