Why do non catholics dislike Mother Mary?

[Prodigal_Son1]

we can be confident that God included in His word what was necessary to please God and for our own salvation.

Yes, and He used holy men of the Church to do so.

 

[SHW]

I recently had a fundamentalist/creationist tell me that “praying to Mary was Satan’s way of keeping us from focusing on Jesus”. She was white-faced with anger. This feeling of hers, I think, counts for more than just “dislike”. This was a friend who said this to me and another friend/Catholic: my Catholic friend and I were stunned. We both feel as though we have lost someone close to us, as this comment cut us to the core. We tried to explain, that among other reasons, that we prayed to Mary as an advocate to help us understand Jesus. I would appreciate insight as to how to proceed.
thank you
P

Jesus is the One Mediator between God and Man, because only He is both God and Man 1 Timothy 2:3-6 and so only He could offer a perfect blood sacrifice to His Father in atonement for Adam’s Sin which is what alienated us from God and made us enemies of God.

Romans 5:10, 12, 15-19
For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

12 Therefore, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—

15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s (Adam’s) offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one (Adam) who sinned. For the judgment which came from one (Adam’s) offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s (Adam’s) offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man’s (Adam’s) offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s (Adam’s) disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

So, Jesus is the **One Mediator **because only He could and did reconcile us to God in atonement for Adam’s Sin. Jesus is also an intercessor for us. Hebrews 7:25

However, we are all called to be intercessors.

1 Timothy 2:1
Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence.

However, the saints in heaven also make intercession for us. Revelation 5:8

We are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses Hebrews 12:1 and they are the OT Patriarchs who have gone ahead of us into eternal life. Hebrews 11

The prayers of a righteous person avails much. The saints in heaven (cloud of witnesses) are righteous and they intercede for us (who are still on earth) when we ask them to pray for us.

James 5:16
Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

We are all one body whether we are the Church members on earth or the Church members in heaven, and the Church members in heaven will help us until we are able to join them in heaven.

Mary, the mother of Jesus is the most righteous person in heaven so her prayers avail much.

John 2:2-5
Now both Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding. 3 And when they ran out of wine, the mother of Jesus said to Him, “They have no wine.”
4 Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me? My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, “Whatever He says to you, do it.”

6 Now there were set there six waterpots of stone, according to the manner of purification of the Jews, containing twenty or thirty gallons apiece. 7 Jesus said to them, “Fill the waterpots with water.” And they filled them up to the brim. 8 And He said to them, “Draw some out now, and take it to the master of the feast.” And they took it. 9 When the master of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and did not know where it came from (but the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom. 10 And he said to him, “Every man at the beginning sets out the good wine, and when the guests have well drunk, then the inferior. You have kept the good wine until now!”

The prayers (intercession) of a righteous person avails much.

 

[johns58w]

The Jack Chick types come to mind. Maybe they just hate the Catholic ‘version’ of Mary, ie, she’s just a vessel and all that.

I read one of Karl Keating’s books “Catholicism and Fundamentalism” about Jack Chick(Alberto,Maria Monk etc.) Jack Chick was so dangerous in his work that many Christians stayed away from him. I still see some of his little tracts floating around certain denominations and especially low income areas to try to convert poor Catholics out of their missions.
At the unfortunate reformation period, even Luther and Calvin had a deep respect for Blessed Virgin Mary.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

**1Ti 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. ** Better get your definition of the how God defines “church” before going any further. It is not hard to find nor discern and is found in your Bible.

Eph 3:10 That the manifold wisdom of God may be made
known to the principalities and powers in heavenly places through the church

same as above; you need the Biblical definition of “church” to understand these passages in their context.

When these scriptures were written, the Church was already established. In fact the New Testament came through the Church. The canon of the New Testament was defined 360 years and more later. How did all those generations find truth without a New Testament.

The Truth of God is not contingent upon a printing press a scribe nor a preacher. To answer your actual question through the power of God working in and through gifted men and women.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Who said you wont be let into heaven?

IMHO you are just settling for a second rate version of Christs Church… You ignore the traditions that were laid out from hundreds of years of meditation and prayer and guidance from the HOly Spirit…

Its not that you are “unacceptable” to God, its just that you aren’t doing your best.

Your church has taught all non-Catholics were damned before Trent, affirmed by Trent, till Vatican II; yet Vatican II confirmed all of Trent, which is confusing because all of us non-Catholics went from going to hell for not being part of the Catholic church to being called “separated brethren” who could be going to heaven in a mystical fashion of being attached to the Catholic church, but not knowing we were; yet in the same breath saying they (Vat II) confirms Trent, which is clearly damning those not Catholic. I call a spade a spade; this is a change in doctrine and I have witnessed discussion on this site and other places on this very point.

Does not your church history show that it forced its will on people, which are called inquisitions in the name of God?

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

Which Church is “THE church” ??? Do you expect people to believe that various peoples from all denominations make up some sort of “invisible”, “secret” church ?

Which Church ?

I expect people to believe God, and what He says in His word. In His word He tells us how to be saved and how to be adopted into His family making us apart of His church. If you want to mock Him for that go ahead, I think I will just believe God. and I also dont mind if you want to mock me for believing God

 

[izoid]

Better get your definition of the how God defines “church” before going any further. It is not hard to find nor discern and is found in your Bible.

same as above; you need the Biblical definition of “church” to understand these passages in their context.

In New Testament times the word ekklesia, translated church, was used to refer to an organized gathering.

 

[izoid]

Your church has taught all non-Catholics were damned before Trent, affirmed by Trent, till Vatican II; yet Vatican II confirmed all of Trent, which is confusing because all of us non-Catholics went from going to hell for not being part of the Catholic church to being called “separated brethren” who could be going to heaven in a mystical fashion of being attached to the Catholic church, but not knowing we were; yet in the same breath saying they (Vat II) confirms Trent, which is clearly damning those not Catholic. I call a spade a spade; this is a change in doctrine and I have witnessed discussion on this site and other places on this very point.

Does not your church history show that it forced its will on people, which are called inquisitions in the name of God?

Here we go…are we going to start throwing stones? I could throw some rather large ones with protestant actions written on them. Come on, let’s not degrade ourselves to this level.

 

[izoid]

I expect people to believe God, and what He says in His word. In His word He tells us how to be saved and how to be adopted into His family making us apart of His church. If you want to mock Him for that go ahead, I think I will just believe God. and I also dont mind if you want to mock me for believing God

I agree that we should all believe God. So I ask you; why don’t you believe Him as He reveals Himself through His Church?

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

If it were, would you be able to accept it ?

I could if that were clearly stated in scripture.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

You do not understand. You have to be taught the correct Scripture interpretation by someone who already knows the correct Scripture interpretation! You must be taught the correct interpretation of Scripture by someone who can trace these correct interpretations back to Christ Himself or else you will make errors in your interpretation. You cannot be grounded in the truth unless you first learn the truth from people who learned it from other persons who know the truth and who also taught it to them 2 Timothy 2:2. This rich deposit of faith of Scripture interpretation in the Catholic Church goes back through the years all the way to the Apostles and Jesus. This is why Peter states:

2 Peter 3:16
as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

You are untaught (you are either self-taught or else taught by other self-taught people) and therefore you are **unstable **(not grounded in the truth) because you were not taught the correct Scripture interpretation by the Catholic Church and you did you learn the correct Scripture interpretation from the Catholic Church who alone has the authority of God to interpret her own book’s words.

1 Timothy 3:15
I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
**
The Catholic Church is the pillar (support) and ground (foundation of the truth), not Scripture.**
It is the Catholic Church that correctly interprets Scripture and she is guided by the Holy Spirit.

Unless you learn the correct interpretation of the Scriptures from someone who learned the correct interpretation from the Catholic Church, you will not learn the correct interpretation and if you do not learn the correct interpretation from the Magisterium (successors of the Apostles), then you will end up twisting the Scriptures to mean something that they do not.
**
The Bible belongs to the Catholic Church. It is her book.** The Bible was compiled in order to help to teach the Catholic Faith to its members. She alone has the authority to interpret her own Scriptures. Any interpretation of Scripture that does not agree with Catholic teaching is in error. All Scripture, when properly interpreted, confirms the Catholic Church’s teachings. It is naive and absurd to believe that a person can pick up the Catholic Church’s book and then proceed to correct her in her teachings concerning her own book.

"Bishop, Priest, and Deacon

The sacrament of holy orders is conferred in three ranks of clergy: bishops, priests, and deacons.

Bishops (episcopoi) have the care of multiple congregations and appoint, ordain, and discipline priests and deacons. They sometimes appear to be called “evangelists” in the New Testament. Examples of first-century bishops include Timothy and Titus (1 Tim. 5:19–22; 2 Tim. 4:5; Titus 1:5).

Priests (presbuteroi) are also known as “presbyters” or “elders.” In fact, the English term “priest” is simply a contraction of the Greek word presbuteros. They have the responsibility of teaching, governing, and providing the sacraments in a given congregation (1 Tim. 5:17; Jas. 5:14–15).

Deacons (diakonoi) are the assistants of the bishops and are responsible for teaching and administering certain Church tasks, such as the distribution of food (Acts 6:1–6)."
More at: catholic.com/library/Bishop_Priest_and_Deacon.asp

The foolishness of men includes their thinking that it is possible for every person to read the Scriptures for themselves and then automatically accurately interpret them. It is foolishness to believe that the Holy Spirit is guiding every person in Scripture interpretation. Personal interpretation of Scripture leads to contradicting doctrines and this is why there are now thousands of Protestant churches. However, the Holy Spirit does not teach contradicting doctrines so He is definitely not guiding these individuals.

One Protestant personally believes that Baptism washes away sins. Another Protestant personally does not believe that Baptism washes away sins, yet both Protestants claim that the Holy Spirit has personally guided them to truth.

The Holy Spirit does not teach conflicting doctrines.

Scripture Alone causes Chaos!

There is a word in the NT Greek for priest and it is not what you showed. Why is that? Who is guiding? The Holy Spirit is a “Person” and is the only “Person” who can teach and guide any man concerning the Truth, which is everything that proceeds from the mouth of God. The Holy Spirit is the singular interpreter of Truth pertaining to the things of God; not man’s. I would suggest reading the end of the Levitical-style of priesthood, which Christ did away with in the coming of the New Covenant. You can read all about it in Hebrews chapter 7,8, & 9, but unless one is taught by the only Person who can interpret Scripture and manifest it to the Christian, then one will never understand the Scripture.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

As I pointed out weeks ago, there are core beliefs that separate Christianity from all other ‘religions.’ All true Christians believe specific things. I don’t know the whole list, I’d say only God does, especially seeing the it is only He who can look into one’s heart where all true beliefs reside.​

I would say and belief upon which salvation would be determined would fall into this category: there is a God, Jesus died for our sins, we are sinners, etc. For those who never get to hear about Jesus, God’s grace will be sufficient as He knows the heart of each one.​

Would you say wheter or not Mary was a perpetual virgin is a salvation issue? Would you say that believing that Jesus started His church on Peter and that the CC is the one and only true church are salvation issues? What about ‘baptism’?

The core belief is the Gospel according to Jesus. What I wonder about is the people in the Church of Christ who believe water baptism is necessary for salvation, which is a works righteousness which diminishes the sufficiency of Christ. Intuitively, anything that diminishes the sufficiency of Christ in salvation is another gospel. I am puzzled by this particular group because I know some of them and everything else is in line with the gospel except that one point and it does deal with salvation. i guess i will know when i get to heaven.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

If the Bible is the sole truth from God, tell me why did the inspired word of God tell us the Church is the pillar and ground of truth instead of scriptures? Why does the inspired word of God tell us the manifold wisdom of God can be made through the Church instead of scriptures?

Why does the Old Testament give us an example of people needing scriptures explained to them in Nehemiah 8?

Why does the New Testament give us the example of Philip having to explain scriptures to the Ethiopian if all one needs is scriptures to understand them?

Easy; you don’t understand the meaning nor the context of the passages.

 

[PRmerger]

IDo you think I will be condemned for believing God???

My Church does not believe that I can have any assurance whatsoever about whether you’re condemned or not.

I will say this: even the demons believe, do they not?

So I will say with some assurance that simply believing in God is not enough to grant you eternal life.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

If its not secret, then who is part of it ? Anyone who believes?

Like I said earlier, this is no more than an attempt to disprove the catholic Church, and create some new --easy to follow / anything goes-- kind of watered down Christianity… You expect me to believe that the Church was good for 1500 years, and then God decided to change the rules… Yeh, right.

No I expect you to believe the word of God. For 1500 years you wouldnt have had that option there is a very slim chance that you would have had access to a Bible and an even thinner chance that you would have been able to read it. If you are satisfied that the RCC doesn’t contradict Gods word then by all means stay in and serve your church with all your heart.

 

[guanophore]

Well there is a difference between protestants and Catholics. Most, protestants do not believe dead people can pray for them at all.

Do you believe the saints are not in heaven? Or do you believe that people who are in heaven are “dead”?

 

[Timothy_Piper]

The Holy Spirit resides in every believer, but in different measure for each. The Holy Spirit guides each of us foremost through His Catholic/universal Church because He guides His Catholic Church into all Truth. In a smaller measure He guides the individual.

Where is this in Catholic doctrine much less Scripture? Are you making it up as you go?

These people were taught by the apostles and so they did indeed “receive a faith of the same kind as the apostles.”

:banghead:

These people did not make up their own faith by reading some Scriptures and personally interpreting them and then arguing with Peter and telling him that he is wrong because the Holy Spirit told them differently than what he is teaching them.

Peter is actually speaking “To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia.” who have been taught the true faith by him.

How can one accept and discern what that truth actually is? Hint: The interpreter of the Truth which manifests to all Christians, AKA the Person called the Holy Spirit.

These letters from Paul to Timothy are sent as a reminder and for encouragement and also for further instruction for Timothy so that he will be a good bishop and so that he will also know what to look for when he chooses men for Holy Orders (the bishops/priests, priests/elders/ and deacons).

They are know as the Pastoral epistles, 1 & 2 timothy and Titus. He never chose anyone for Holy orders, that did not come into play for several centuries because it is not from the Word of God.

**Jesus never ever told anyone to pick up a Bible and then interpret it for one’s self. He wants us to listen to His Church and obey her. **

Isn’t that exactly what the magesterium does?

Unless the teacher learned the truth (the correct interpretation from the CC), then he may or may not be teaching the truth. It is anyone’s guess. The Holy Spirit does not promise individual guidance for the interpretation of Scripture. He promises it to His Church.

There is the error, the “church” is not the interpreter, the Holy Spirit is the interpreter. The Holy Spirit only works in individual Christians, which is the church of Jesus Christ. Unless one understands the Biblical definition of the church and the only true interpreter of the truth, then it remains as the Bible says with a veil.

***2 Co 3-
14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. 15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

---

 

[guanophore]

Excuse me! What a crock!

I don’t think anyone dislikes Mary. Even Muslims believe in the virgin birth. Even the Beatles respect Mary!

I can’t go further. I’m apoplectic. Foaming at the mouth even. Going dizzy…about to pass out…

where do you get your ideas from?

Lordy lordy…

It is true, Usbek. There are some fundamentalists that don’t even give Mary any honor for raising the Son of God. They speak about her as if the Lord passed through her in the nature of a bowel movement. I agree with you, it is astonishing. I think it is a reflection of our culture of death, and the disdain of the vocation of motherhood.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Fair enough, Timothy. I’ll agree that this is an old argument.

How do you put it to rest? What can you provide that refutes this “old argument”?

I can’t put it to rest, that is the work of the Holy Spirit and apparently it is not part of His plan. The Scripture is clear as the noon day sun, that Joseph and Mary had children, which means Jesus had siblings.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Um…say what?

Please answer the questions without nonsequitors.

How can said Holy Spirit lead all these different Christians into contradictory doctrines?

He doesn’t. Is that simple enough? since He doesn’t, then that leaves one assumption left; who is a Christian?