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SHW
Guest
Matthew 18:10
Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven.
Revelation 8:3
Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
The angel is offering the prayers of ALL the saints, both the saints in heaven and the saints (in training
) who are still on earth.Both the angels and saints pray for us.
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tweetymom
Guest
God Bless you and your family. How is your Mother-in law?
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Dokimas
Guest
In need of intercession. Extremely weak, not really eating, has an infection. Thank you for asking.
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Libertarian_FL
Guest
Of course if Mary honored her Son as the Saviour she is in heaven, all believers in Christ who are true to Him and bathed in His blood are in heaven that doesn’t means she didn’t die of old age and had a normal marriage bond with her husband including sex. Including having more children which if you read the accounts Mary was a virgin and did not have relations with her husband until Jesus was born. That is black and white in the Bible. If she was a virgin after then God would have seen that was worded that way. I pointed out earlier what a Rebbe told me that for a Jewish woman of that period it would have been a sin not to try and have more children, refuse her husbands needs sexually and her own and the odds of them being celibate after the birth of Jesus would have been very remote. So adding both those together she was likely a honorable mother, wife and role-model Christians can look up to. And was blessed among all women but not divine like her Son, but just a woman who took a very special Calling.
But venerating her as a Saint. I feel we are all Saints who believe so yes she was and is one in death as much as my mother of blessed memory but not an intercessor. There is only one door to God the Father and The Holy Spirit and that is Jesus Himself. So I can say we don’t dislike her we love Mary just not to be honest by my view not to an extreme the Catholics take it.
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tweetymom
Guest
Been praying for her. God Bless
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SHW
Guest
From the ECF:
“Then we commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us,** first Patriarchs, Prophets, Apostles, Martyrs, that at their prayers and intercessions God would receive our petition.** Then on behalf also of the Holy Fathers and Bishops who have fallen asleep before us, and in a word of all who in past years have fallen asleep among us, believing that it will be a very great benefit to the souls, for whom the supplication is put up, while that holy and most awful sacrifice is set forth.” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 23:9 (A.D. 350).
Divine Liturgy (Mass) of St. John Chrysostom during the 5th Century
Priest (silently): O holy God abiding in the saints, praised by the thrice-holy hymn of the Seraphim, glorified by the Cherubim and adored by all the heavenly powers, You brought all things out of nothingness into being, and created man to Your own image and likeness, and adorned him with Your every gift; You give wisdom and under standing to him who asks, and despising not the sinner, You ordain repentance for salvation. You have allowed us, Your humble and unworthy servants, to stand at this time before the glory of Your holy altar and to offer to You due adoration and praise. Accept, O Master, from the lips of us sinners the thrice holy hymn, and visit us in Your goodness. Forgive us every offense voluntary and involuntary, sanctify our souls and bodies and grant that we may serve You in holiness all the days of our life; through the prayers of the holy Mother of God and all the saints, who have pleased You throughout the ages. From esoptron.umd.edu/ugc/liturgy2.html
Not everything is in the Bible. That is why St. Paul commands us to "Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, **whether by word (oral preaching/teaching) **or our epistle. "2 Thessalonians 2:15
“Then we commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us,** first Patriarchs, Prophets, Apostles, Martyrs, that at their prayers and intercessions God would receive our petition.** Then on behalf also of the Holy Fathers and Bishops who have fallen asleep before us, and in a word of all who in past years have fallen asleep among us, believing that it will be a very great benefit to the souls, for whom the supplication is put up, while that holy and most awful sacrifice is set forth.” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 23:9 (A.D. 350).
Divine Liturgy (Mass) of St. John Chrysostom during the 5th Century
Priest (silently): O holy God abiding in the saints, praised by the thrice-holy hymn of the Seraphim, glorified by the Cherubim and adored by all the heavenly powers, You brought all things out of nothingness into being, and created man to Your own image and likeness, and adorned him with Your every gift; You give wisdom and under standing to him who asks, and despising not the sinner, You ordain repentance for salvation. You have allowed us, Your humble and unworthy servants, to stand at this time before the glory of Your holy altar and to offer to You due adoration and praise. Accept, O Master, from the lips of us sinners the thrice holy hymn, and visit us in Your goodness. Forgive us every offense voluntary and involuntary, sanctify our souls and bodies and grant that we may serve You in holiness all the days of our life; through the prayers of the holy Mother of God and all the saints, who have pleased You throughout the ages. From esoptron.umd.edu/ugc/liturgy2.html
Not everything is in the Bible. That is why St. Paul commands us to "Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, **whether by word (oral preaching/teaching) **or our epistle. "2 Thessalonians 2:15
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Dokimas
Guest
I have no problem thinking that saints in Heaven pray. For argument sake, I’ll grant you that they may even pray for us. Remember they know perfectly and see perfectly so they would know exactly how to pray. They don’t need us to go against Jesus’ teaching that when we pray, we are to pray to our Heavenly Father. There is NO verse I’m aware of that tells us to pray to saints, this side of the grave or the other. None of your verses instruct us to do so.Matthew 18:10
Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven.
Revelation 8:3
Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
The angel is offering the prayers of ALL the saints, both the saints in heaven and the saints (in training
Both the angels and saints pray for us.
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gardienbleu
Guest
If by “non catholic” the original poster means protestant, it may be that those protestants are unaware of what their protestant fathers preached and wrote about Mary.
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SHW
Guest
We ask our friends on earth to pray for us. It is the same as asking our friends in heaven to pray for us. All prayers still have to go through Jesus whether they are prayed in heaven or on earth.
Scripture demands that intercessions be made for all men. 1 Timothy 2:1-3
All of us in the Body of Christ are supposed to be intercessors until we are finally all together in heaven.
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Dokimas
Guest
Not all oral traditions are from God. We are also cautioned against believing and practicing wrong traditions.
Matthew 15:
1 ¶ Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying,
2 “Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.”
3 He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?
6 ‘then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition.
Mr 7:5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?”Mr 7:8 “For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men–the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
Mr 7:9 He said to them, "All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.
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SHW
Guest
No person in the Catholic Church is obligated to pray to the saints to ask them to help that person. It is fine if he only wants to pray to the Heavenly Father.** There is no rule saying that we must pray to them.** But, we may pray to the saints to ask them to intercede for us if that is what we desire to do.
However, quantity does matter sometimes. The elect include those in heaven.
Luke 18:1-8
Then He spoke a parable to them, that men always ought to pray and not lose heart, 2 saying: “There was in a certain city a judge who did not fear God nor regard man. 3 Now there was a widow in that city; and she came to him, saying, ‘Get justice for me from my adversary.’ 4 And he would not for a while; but afterward he said within himself, ‘Though I do not fear God nor regard man, 5 yet because this widow troubles me I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.’”
6 Then the Lord said, “Hear what the unjust judge said. 7 And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them? 8 I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?”
Revelation 6:9-11
When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. This is symbolic, they are not really confined under the altar in heaven.
I cannot remember the name and date of the “study” since it was done years ago, but it was on “answered prayer.” It was not done by Catholics; however, the researchers found that Catholics’ prayers were answered more often than non-Catholics. They were puzzled why the results showed this disparity. The reason Catholics received more answered prayers is because Catholics ask the angels and saints in heaven to intercede for us. We have a multitude of people ready to intercede for us if we just ask them and many of us do ask them.
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guanophore
Guest
I just want to throw my agreement in with you and Iz. Mary is the model of fruitfulness, receptivity, and openness to life. This attitude of receiving life from God at the time of His choosing, not ours, is part of her special charism. Contraception is a practice that is contrary and opposite of this attitude of receptivity that Mary embodies. For most folks, it is very unconscious, but is also very powerful deterrant.You said it better than I did, and I’m the one who dragged artificial contraception into the mix!
I also think folks that have trouble relating to Mary often have had difficult or non-existent relationships with their own earthly mother. They suffer from a motherwound that prevents them from getting near to Mary.
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SHW
Guest
Traditions that transgress the commandments of God are bad. All other traditions which do not transgress the commandments of God are perfectly fine. Asking people (whether they reside on earth or in heaven) to intercede for us is good and pleasing in God’s sight.
1 Corinthians 11:2
Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you.
1 Peter 4:8
And above all things have fervent love for one another, for “love will cover a multitude of sins.”
One way that we show our love for each other is to intercede in prayer for each other. The saints in heaven love more perfectly than we do on earth. They are righteous in God’s sight.
1 Peter 3:12
For the eyes of the LORD are on the righteous,
And His ears are open to their prayers;
But the face of the LORD is against those who do evil.”
It’s our own personal choice whether we choose to ask the angels and saints in heaven to intercede for us or not. I will continue to do so.
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Timothy_Piper
Guest
LOL…
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izoid
Guest
The problem that is being played out here is that our protestant brothers have sterilized the Scriptures. They feel it necessary to strip all Jewish understanding, all tradition, everything that might remotely reflect the 1st century mindset. They read the Scriptures from a 20th century western mindset. The Bible has become a book that is to be dissected and studied as an academic endeavor.
In a nut shell; they have sucked the very life from God’s Word. It is very clear from the past 10 or so pages that our brothers do not see any reflection of 1st century Judaism in the Word. They only see original Greek texts that need to be parsed and re parsed in order to be understood. I honestly believe they have removed the beauty of God’s Word and replaced it with a cold, calculated understanding.
No matter how hard we try to connect them to the spirit of God’s Word we will fail. They have hardened their hearts to it and only God can soften them. I will continue to pray for them and to present the truth of God’s Word in the hopes that they may see the beauty nd richness of the traditions of the Church of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
In a nut shell; they have sucked the very life from God’s Word. It is very clear from the past 10 or so pages that our brothers do not see any reflection of 1st century Judaism in the Word. They only see original Greek texts that need to be parsed and re parsed in order to be understood. I honestly believe they have removed the beauty of God’s Word and replaced it with a cold, calculated understanding.
No matter how hard we try to connect them to the spirit of God’s Word we will fail. They have hardened their hearts to it and only God can soften them. I will continue to pray for them and to present the truth of God’s Word in the hopes that they may see the beauty nd richness of the traditions of the Church of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
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Timothy_Piper
Guest
Do you ever read posts accurately? I have said many many times; the only interpreter of Scripture or the things of God is the Holy Spirit; I am not the Holy Spirit. If I were; there would be no more debate on this issue.Yes, we must all remember that Timothy is the only true interpreter of Scripture. Whenever there is disagreement we must defer to his understanding. After all, he is filled with the Spirt so he is the one who knows the truth.
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izoid
Guest
Then why s it that the only opinion that can be had is yours? You belittle and talk down to those that don’t believe as you do and you do it constantly. Other people have told you the same thing yet you refuse to even consider how you come across. THe bottom line is; your interpretations are wrong and they are NOT of the Holy Spirit.
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tweetymom
Guest
Thank you Izoid. I know that I am on ignore with you and that is great with me. But it seems like the pot is calling the kettle black my my my. And maybe you should show some of the post you have written to your Priest. God Bless you anyway.I don’t know how my name got in your quote but I would appreciate you removing it as it is not mine.
While your at it why don’t you stop being so rude. I have a hard time believing that your unkind, arrogant attitude is pleasing to anyone.Maybe you should have those you love the most read your posts and give you some feedback. Maybe you could show them to your pastor and he could give you a little counsel in Godliness.
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Timothy_Piper
Guest
You said that; I did not. I will say that anyone who assigns Mary and/or believes attributes that belong to God to Mary or diminishes the glory do to God alone through the worship of Mary, then I would question whether God knows them at all and if He would hear their prayers. I’m, not God, but I do know His word and I do know what God said about worship, Him and Him alone. I see what happened every time Israel did not do as He commanded and I suspect He has not changed.Are you questioning whether anyone who disagrees with you is a Christian?
You say that leaves one assumption and then ask a question. What is your assumption? Is it that Catholics are not Christians? It sure seems as though you are saying that,tell me it isn’t so.
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