Why do non catholics dislike Mother Mary?

[izoid]

Thank you Izoid. I know that I am on ignore with you and that is great with me. But it seems like the pot is calling the kettle black my my my. And maybe you should show some of the post you have written to your Priest. God Bless you anyway.

I’ll tell you what Tweety. I will let YOU show my posts to my priest if I can show yours to your priest. Do we have a deal?

 

[izoid]

You said that; I did not. I will say that anyone who assigns Mary and/or believes attributes that belong to God to Mary or diminishes the glory do to God alone through the worship of Mary, then I would question whether God knows them at all and if He would hear their prayers. I’m, not God, but I do know His word and I do know what God said about worship, Him and Him alone. I see what happened every time Israel did not do as He commanded and I suspect He has not changed.

Do you feel that Catholics are assigning attributes to Mary that only belong to God? Has the Catholic Church assigned these attributes to her? I would like to know which ones if you do believe we have.

 

[tweetymom]

I’ll tell you what Tweety. I will let YOU show my posts to my priest if I can show yours to your priest. Do we have a deal?

Hey I don’t have a problem already done that. I am not ashamed of anything I have said and my Priest seen it all.

 

[izoid]

You said that; I did not. I will say that anyone who assigns Mary and/or believes attributes that belong to God to Mary or diminishes the glory do to God alone through the worship of Mary, then I would question whether God knows them at all and if He would hear their prayers. I’m, not God, but I do know His word and I do know what God said about worship, Him and Him alone. I see what happened every time Israel did not do as He commanded and I suspect He has not changed.

I agree that if anyone worships anyone or anything with the worship that belongs to God they are in for a rude awakening.

BTW…what is your theological background Timothy?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

There are canonical differences but that’s okay. This seems like a good example to start with. Tobit was praying to whom? the Angel? For this to be an example of why you pray to saints, Tobit would havd had to be praying to the Angel. Correct?

Tob 12:12 When thou didst pray with tears, and didst bury the dead, and didst leave thy dinner, and hide the dead by day in thy house, and bury them by night, I offered thy prayer to the Lord.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

You said that; I did not. I will say that anyone who assigns Mary and/or believes attributes that belong to God to Mary or diminishes the glory do to God alone through the worship of Mary, then I would question whether God knows them at all and if He would hear their prayers. I’m, not God, but I do know His word and I do know what God said about worship, Him and Him alone. I see what happened every time Israel did not do as He commanded and I suspect He has not changed.

You may be misunderstanding veneration and worship. Catholics do not worship Mary.

 

[Dokimas]

Tob 12:12 When thou didst pray with tears, and didst bury the dead, and didst leave thy dinner, and hide the dead by day in thy house, and bury them by night, I offered thy prayer to the Lord.

I hope you had a wonderful time with your wife.​

Was the one offering prayers (the other sid of the grave) dead? The one offering prayers prayed to the Lord on the dead saints.

 

[paxvobiscum]

Scripture says the Holy Spirit is the interpreter of Scripture, not men. Thought that may have escaped your notice somehow.

Hey timothy,
can you show me that Scripture please?
thanks!

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Of course if Mary honored her Son as the Saviour she is in heaven, all believers in Christ who are true to Him and bathed in His blood are in heaven that doesn’t means she didn’t die of old age and had a normal marriage bond with her husband including sex. Including having more children which if you read the accounts Mary was a virgin and did not have relations with her husband until Jesus was born. That is black and white in the Bible. If she was a virgin after then God would have seen that was worded that way. I pointed out earlier what a Rebbe told me that for a Jewish woman of that period it would have been a sin not to try and have more children, refuse her husbands needs sexually and her own and the odds of them being celibate after the birth of Jesus would have been very remote. So adding both those together she was likely a honorable mother, wife and role-model Christians can look up to. And was blessed among all women but not divine like her Son, but just a woman who took a very special Calling.

But venerating her as a Saint. I feel we are all Saints who believe so yes she was and is one in death as much as my mother of blessed memory but not an intercessor. There is only one door to God the Father and The Holy Spirit and that is Jesus Himself. So I can say we don’t dislike her we love Mary just not to be honest by my view not to an extreme the Catholics take it.

We pointed out a couple of examples of things not being worded one way or the other. You may have missed my explanation that some things in the beginning of the new covenant were taken for granted, sort of, since everyone believed. Only when a belief became misunderstood or endanger of not being correct did the men of the Church make decrees.

I have also provided, copy and pasted, Numbers 30, which explains a woman’s right and prerogative to chose abstinence under the law of Moses, which Mary and Joseph lived before Christ. The law plainly states a father’s or husband’s obligation to honor the vow, or take action to stop the vow, if done in a timely fashion. This certainly circumvents what you were told about Jewish law, especially when we’re discussing a virgin birth to begin with. (*You said a Rebbe told you, did you mean Rabbi? If so, I think it’s important to point out that Jews do not believe Christ was the Messiah, which leaves me to believe they don’t think it was a virgin birth. Maybe someone with knowledge of the Jewish beliefs can elaborate for us. *)

I will try to look for where I read it, and if I remember correctly it was listed as ‘legend’, but it was believed that Joseph was a widower, giving him the possibility of having children, which would have been step-brothers and step sisters to Christ. They would have been referred to as ‘brothers and sisters’ in that accounting.

There was an oral tradition, since the beginning of mankind. That oral tradition was practiced throughout history and I’m sure if we solely relied on the oral accounting of Mary’s status, 2000 years laters, details would be missing. What’s not missing, is written documents, including the first Protestants, who believed in the perpetual virginity.

Then there’s the translation and use of the Greek word ‘adelphos’. Some say it was also used for cousins in the same tribe. Again, I would have to look up where I read that, and I believe that was in a book. Either way it was used both literally and figuratively.

ἀδελφός
adelphos
ad-el-fos’
From G1 (as a connective particle) and δελφύς delphus (the womb); a brother (literally or figuratively) near or remote (much like [H1]): - brother.

I’ve seen it discussed prior, but it still leaves us to wonder why Christ assigned John the task of caring for His mother, as opposed to the Jewish tradition of the next sibling being obligated to care for His mother, had Christ had siblings. Again, this is something the Bible does not specify.

This brings me back full circle to a question I’ve asked of everyone, does a Catholic believing in the perpetual virginity play any part or have any impact on one’s salvation? I cannot see how and if someone thinks so, I’d be very interested in reading their thoughts on the subject.

Now, you’ve worded something again that indicates it would be wrong to ask anyone to pray for you. That being there is only one intercessor, if that is what you mean by ‘only one door’. I think we both agree, there is only one door to salvation, but we’re discussing asking someone to pray for us. Catholics see no difference in asking Saints to pray for us as we believe they are eternally alive in heaven with Christ.

Another point you bring up that I want to clarify the Catholic position on. We honor Mary, we venerate Mary, but we do not worship Mary and do not believe Mary to be a divinity, as God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, one God, is.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I hope you had a wonderful time with your wife.​

Was the one offering prayers (the other sid of the grave) dead? The one offering prayers prayed to the Lord on the dead saints.

It was Tobias’ prayers the Angel offered up during Tobias’ period of mourning. I don’t believe Angels experience death, it’s not in the Bible one way or the other, but I think we all believe Angels exist in heaven, which is where Christians go for eternal life.

The main point of sharing that verse was to show you how a Catholic belief comes from an interpretation of scriptures. I’ll caveat that with, whether you agree with the interpretation or not.

I have e-sword on my computer. You might be familiar with it. It’s a free Bible program with lots of features. As I’ve researched and found verses supporting Catholic beliefs, I have saved them under various topics. I could produce lots of scriptures on some topics, but it overwhelms some threads to produce them all, especially since I’ve started adding in early Church father writings and other information found to support certain beliefs. Anyways, I’d recommend esword to everyone that loves the scriptures and you don’t have to worry, it was created by a Protestant who provides lot of Protestant resources as well. Take a look, I think it’s esword.net, if not, just google esword.

Yes, wifey and I had a good day. She got some fish for the aquarium I bought her for Christmas.

 

[Dokimas]

ProdicalSon, I have a Bible Program called, ‘Online Bible’. It got its name before being online was popular. It’s quite a good one and very inexpensive but not free.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

ProdicalSon, I have a Bible Program called, ‘Online Bible’. It got its name before being online was popular. It’s quite a good one and very inexpensive but not free.

esword is free and so are the resources. Mine is loaded with 10 versions of the Bible, translation programs for Greek and Hebrew, early Church fathers, dictionaries, topics, study notes, Biblical maps, commentaries, writings of Flavius Josephus, etc. etc. etc. I like the search features for searching Bible verses and the study program being in it where copying and pasting is easy. Of course, I had to select alot of the extras and install them, but it’s quite easy. The hard part was finding so much Catholic materials, historical evidences on heresies, list of Popes with biographies, list of Saints, confessions of St. Augustine and the list goes on and on. There are enough books in there, I’ll never get to read them all…

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Show me that verse and prove that the RCC is that church and I and my family will convert.

Ditto!

 

[Timothy_Piper]

God knows His and loves them, inspite of any shortcomings in belief. I’m sure there will be things I’ve thought true that are incorrect. I think we should be careful not to judge extra beliefs realizing God knows each heart, including mine (and when you think about it, understanding that the heart is despirately wicked who can know it) is a scary thing. Sure we have a new heart if we’re born again, but we live with our old one til Heaven.

I agree that is why I am puzzled, but this is the essential doctrine of salvation and there is no gray. I have witnessed to them, but they, like others, hand onto Acts 2:38 and ignore the rest of the context…beyond my understanding.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Ditto!

Hey Timothy,

Read back a few posts…you’ve been asked to provide some scriptures you mentioned…

 

[PRmerger]

I agree that is why I am puzzled, but **this is the essential doctrine of salvation **and there is no gray. I have witnessed to them, but they, like others, hand onto Acts 2:38 and ignore the rest of the context…beyond my understanding.

I’d like a Scripture verse on this, too. Essential doctrine of salvation? Never read about that in one Scripture verse, ever. [SIGN]I don’t think “essential” is even in the Bible.[/SIGN]

How strange that it would not be mentioned, when this is seemingly such an important doctrine.

Here’s what the Scriptures say about salvation:

We are saved…

By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)

By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)

By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)

By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)

By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)

By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)

By works (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24)

By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)

By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)

By his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)

By his Cross (Eph 2:16; Col 2:14)

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

Then I take it that your personal Holy Spirit has told you that YHWH made a great big oops with his timing of The Word Made Flesh.

No

 

[Timothy_Piper]

(BB codes added to Timothy’s post by PRmerger)

You are correct: The Scripture is as clear as the noon day sun, Timothy.

Mark 3:17 puts it to rest: James was the son of Zebedee
Luke 6:13-16 puts it to rest: the other James was the son of Alphaeus
James was not the uterine brother of Jesus, as Scripture plainly states.

Unfortunately you overlook that there are at least 3 major James, and I can show a minor 4th James, but two of the majors were part of the original 12 and the 3rd was the Lord’s brother.

Mark 6:3
“Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?” And they took offense at Him.

with

Galatians 1:19
But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.

The name James was a common name in New Testament times. Several people bearing that name are mentioned in the New Testament. Two apostles bore that name: James the son of Zebedee (Mt. 4:21; 10:2), and James the son of Alphaeus (Mt. 10:3). James, the son of Zebedee, and brother of the apostle John, was put to death by Herod Agrippa I before A.D. 44 (Acts 12:1-2). There was also James, the brother of Jesus. Paul refers to him, along with Cephas [Peter] and John as men who were reputed to be pillars among the brethren (Gal. 2:9). Paul identifies James as “the Lord’s brother” in Galatians 1:19.

The New Testament mentions the brothers and sisters of Jesus in Mark 6:3 and Matthew 13:55-56.
biblicalstudies.info/James/james.htm

Mary had other children - God has closed the case, not you nor I.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Only those persons (pagans, Protestants, etc.) who knew that the Catholic Church was the true Church and who did not join her before their deaths were damned (teaching of Church for both before Trent and also after Trent). The invincibly ignorant were not damned before Trent nor are they damned now after Vatican II for being invincibly ignorant.

**
Do you not know that this was what all religious cultures (Israelite, Jew, Christian, and Muslim) did to non-believers in the past?** (The Muslims are still doing it.) It is not prudent to judge past history by 21st Century standards.

In the past, both civil authorities and religious authorities regarded heresy as a terrible crime and it was punishable by torture and death. They used these punishments as a means to “persuade” heretics to recant their heretical beliefs in order to save their souls and also to prevent them from leading others astray by their heretical teachings.

Torture and killing have a long track record of “acceptance” starting with the Israelites, who at God’s command, killed the inhabitants of the promised lands which God gave them, in order to prevent the Israelites from adopting the pagan beliefs of the people in the lands that they conquered and also as punishment for the sins of the pagans in the lands that they conquered.
**
1 Samuel 15:3
Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”**

We see another example in the Jew Saul, a devout Pharisee, who later became St. Paul. He tortured and killed the early Christians. This was done to keep the Jewish religion “pure” and free from heresy.

Acts 26:9-11
9 “Indeed, I (Paul/Saul) myself thought I must do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth. 10 This I also did in Jerusalem, and many of the saints I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I cast my vote against them. 11 And I punished them often in every synagogue and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly enraged against them, I persecuted them even to foreign cities.

Unfortunately, civil authorities and members of the Church also later continued this “legacy” of capital punishment for heresy until it was finally outlawed in the 1800’s. Until then, heresy was a capital offense punishable by death. Protestant reformers also killed Catholics and others as punishment for what was believed to be their heretical beliefs.

According to Scripture, anyone who committed heresy (taught a different gospel other than the apostles) was accursed.

**Galatians 1:9
As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

2 Peter 2

In order to prevent heretics from continuing to believe in and/or teach heresy, they used torture and also threatened death and killed in order to try to persuade them to recant of their heresy and thereby save their souls.**

They thought it necessary to use torture and death in order to save the souls of heretics.

Mark 9:42-48
“But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 where
‘ Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 46 where
‘ Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— 48 where
‘ Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’

It is difficult for us to understand their way of thinking since we were never immersed in their beliefs about torture and capital punishment which they learned from those before them and those persons learned from those before them, all the way back to God commanding the Israelites to kill those persons who did not believe as they did.

Matthew 18:33-35
Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

It is not prudent to use our present 21st century standards to judge ancient Israelite, Jewish, and past Christian (Catholic and Protestant) punishments for heresy. This is what they learned from their predecessors and they continued it until it was finally outlawed in all the “civilized” countries.

Please tell this all the Catholic brethren and the Pope as well; I’m sure they will all be in agreement with you.

Of course you did not address the obvious change in doctrine.

 

[PRmerger]

Unfortunately you overlook that there are at least 3 major James, and I can show a minor 4th James, but two of the majors were part of the original 12 and the 3rd was the Lord’s brother.

Mark 6:3
“Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?” And they took offense at Him.

with

Galatians 1:19
But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.

The name James was a common name in New Testament times. Several people bearing that name are mentioned in the New Testament. Two apostles bore that name: James the son of Zebedee (Mt. 4:21; 10:2), and James the son of Alphaeus (Mt. 10:3). James, the son of Zebedee, and brother of the apostle John, was put to death by Herod Agrippa I before A.D. 44 (Acts 12:1-2). There was also James, the brother of Jesus. Paul refers to him, along with Cephas [Peter] and John as men who were reputed to be pillars among the brethren (Gal. 2:9). Paul identifies James as “the Lord’s brother” in Galatians 1:19.

The New Testament mentions the brothers and sisters of Jesus in Mark 6:3 and Matthew 13:55-56.
biblicalstudies.info/James/james.htm

Mary had other children - God has closed the case, not you nor I.

Oh, good!! You’re finally going to engage the argument!

Firstly, do you agree that James, the “brother” of the Lord, was an apostle?

(This is a simple yes or no question.)