Why do non catholics dislike Mother Mary?

[MyRdmrLvs]

I think that maybe your view of the Catholic Church is incorrect. We do not see ourselves as many individual congregations. We see ourselves as ONE UNITED congregation. These definitions that you provided fit perfectly with that understanding. Thanks!

According to my Strong’s dictionary, ekklesia means:

assembly, church.

From a compound of ek and a derivative of kaleo; a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both) – assembly, church.

THis hardly appears to be a bunch of individuals scattered throughout the world.

So in your understanding it can be refering to Catholics scattered all over the world but it coulnt mean people who have put their faith in Christ all over the world.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

I think that maybe your view of the Catholic Church is incorrect. We do not see ourselves as many individual congregations. We see ourselves as ONE UNITED congregation. These definitions that you provided fit perfectly with that understanding. Thanks!

According to my Strong’s dictionary, ekklesia means:

assembly, church.

From a compound of ek and a derivative of kaleo; a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both) – assembly, church.

THis hardly appears to be a bunch of individuals scattered throughout the world.

those individuals do belong to churches of various quantities just like Catholic conregations.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Hey Timothy,
Can you show me that scripture reference please? thanks

Lead me in Your truth and teach me, For You are the God of my salvation; For You I wait all the day.

1 of many.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

Yes we have. If nothing else, you have to admit our view of Church comes from scriptures, whether you agree with the interpretation or not.

Not so much, The scripture speaks of a church that is clear, it does not however point to the Catholic church any more than any other.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Continued:

Paul was already complaining that persons were trying to pervert the gospel of Christ back in apostolic times Galatians 1:5-9.

2 Timothy 1:15
This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.

Paul warned that in later times people would turn away from Jesus’ gospel and form their own groups of believers who would teach a contrary doctrine (such as Luther with his “faith alone”) doctrine James 2:24, Hebrews 5:9.

2 Timothy 4:3-5
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

Jesus warns that those who claim to be Christians, but who do not also obey His commandments, will not be saved.

Matthew 7:21-23
"Not every one who says to me, Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’

Peter warned that members from within the fold would also start heresies.

2 Peter 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.

We have many so-called Catholics within the Church today who choose what they want to believe and reject what they do not want to believe of the teachings of Jesus’ gospel. They cause great scandal and cause confusion to the faithful. This is why faithful Catholics listen only to the pope and his magisterium for the truth.

There is only one gospel and only one Church that Jesus built upon Peter, and the apostles, and the prophets, to preach His gospel. Anyone who preaches something different than what they preach is not preaching His gospel. The gates of Hades will never prevail against His One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church and it has been in existence now for about 2000 years and it is still being guided by the Holy Spirit who prevents it from teaching error just as Jesus promised.

Jesus’ Church is the Church with Peter (his successor who is now Pope Benedict XVI), the only leader with the keys of the kingdom of heaven, at its head.

This is how Jesus defines His “Church.”

How many keys are there to the Kingdom of God? Hint: Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

If Jesus had keys to give; He probably gave each of them a key to the Kingdom of God and of course we know this to be true, they were all Apostles, the sent messengers of the gospel, and they did exactly that. They all opened the Kingdom of God. This not only accords with all of Scripture, but with the Greek grammatical structure and the scene in context, but you cannot see this unless Christ removes the veil. Same is true with Acts 2:38 and water baptism, when put into a proper structure; it only then accords with the rest of Scripture.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

If those in heaven can’t pray for us then whose prayers are they presenting to God in Revelation?

It is symbolic of the prayers of the blood spilled of the saints during the tribulation. Some Protestant correct me if I am wrong because this is coming off the top, but i have been studying Revelation and still in process and progress.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Well, let me use the Bible the way you use it for just a sec. Where does the Bible tell us NOT to ask those eternally alive in Christ, in heaven, to pray for us?

Impossible to prove a negative; you should know better.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

**
The saints in heaven also make intercession for us. Revelation 5:8**

We are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses Hebrews 12:1 and they are the OT Patriarchs who have gone ahead of us into eternal life. Hebrews 11

The prayers of a righteous person avails much. The saints in heaven (cloud of witnesses) are righteous and they intercede for us (who are still on earth) when we ask them to pray for us.

James 5:16
Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

We are all one body whether we are the Church members on earth or the Church members in heaven, and the Church members in heaven will help us who are still on earth until we are able to join them in heaven.

Mary, the mother of Jesus is the most righteous person in heaven so her prayers avail much. Jesus was not yet ready to start His miracles to show that He was the Messiah, but He did one anyway in order to please His mother when she asked Him.

John 2:2-5
Now both Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding. 3 And when they ran out of wine, the mother of Jesus said to Him, “They have no wine.”
4 Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me? My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, “Whatever He says to you, do it.”

6 Now there were set there six waterpots of stone, according to the manner of purification of the Jews, containing twenty or thirty gallons apiece. 7** Jesus said to them, “Fill the waterpots with water.” And they filled them up to the brim. 8 And He said to them, “Draw some out now, and take it to the master of the feast.” And they took it. 9 When the master of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and did not know where it came from (but the servants who had drawn the water knew)**, the master of the feast called the bridegroom. 10 And he said to him, “Every man at the beginning sets out the good wine, and when the guests have well drunk, then the inferior. You have kept the good wine until now!”

The prayers (intercession) of a righteous person avails much. Now, that the saints are in heaven, they have the ear of Jesus and can constantly ask for His help for us on earth.

My father and grandparents have passed on. I am sure that they are asking God right now for His help for their children and grandchildren on earth so that we will all be joined together again in heaven some day.

That is truly heart breaking; I do mean that with all sincerity.

 

[paxvobiscum]

Lead me in Your truth and teach me, For You are the God of my salvation; For You I wait all the day.

1 of many.

Hi again!
What scripture is that please, I can’t pull it up.
thanks

 

[jen_fla]

it has taken me several hours to get through this thread so I dont blame you for not wanting to look for it Im not keen on looking for it either, perhaps the one who made the post could repeat the explanation for the different degrees of worship. It seemed like an official statement of some kind.

it’s not an official statement. if you want it straight from the Church read the catechism. this thread is actually making me quite sad so i don’t think i’m going to participate other than repeating again that Catholics and members of the Orthodox Church simply do NOT worship Mary.

adoration, devotion, and love i admit can sometimes appear as worship.

this might help a bit, but really if you get time read that book. and if not, please spend some time reading the writings of the early Church fathers.

also from the catechism: vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1K.HTM

peace.

 

[paxvobiscum]

I have been benched by another forum members advise, so I will be leaving a short while.

Baptism of fire; that I want to know more about myself, so when you see me around again, then remind me and we can find out together. I think is it judgment, but I have not looked closely enough. But putting immersion into something like fire doesn’t sound too good on the surface, but then it might be a blessing…can’t wait to learn more…so please remind me when you see me back in a few days.

Thanks and Merry Christmas to everyone and God bless all of you!

And Timothy when you get a chance how about hopping back over to the quoted thread, I’m still interested in that topic.
Pax

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

See that’s not an honest tactic, I’m sorry to say. We’ve already explained, numerous times, there were seven Churches, in seven locations. We believe they were all the same Church. I’ve already produced scriptures where Paul wrote the Hebrews saluting them from the brethren in Italy, but no, no Churches in Rome. What about all the different Churches Paul wrote too? Instructing each of them the same. Paul wrote we should be of the same mind and judgment and he warned about those who would create dissensions…

Now comes the ‘laundry list’ of objections against the Catholic Church. Always used to overpower an argument, because no one can respond to a ‘list’.

Of course Protestant Churches are totally free of sinful people.

Ok now we can agree on something Yes the seven churches were all the same body of Christ. My point was not that these were the only churches or that there was not a church in Rome but rather that Rome not important enough to make the list. and that there is no indication that any one church was supposed to reign over the others. These churches had errors and the CC has had errors. that was my point.
I dont understand how you perceived me to be dishonest. and if you have covered this before Im sorry I must have missed it I have lost my place on this thread many times.

 

[PRmerger]

Impossible to prove a negative; you should know better.

Not at all, Timothy.

If an atheist says, “Where does it say in the Bible that we’re NOT supposed to commit adultery” the Christian can respond, “In Exodus!”

So, now the Catholic is asking you, “Wheredoes the Bible tell us NOT to ask those eternally alive in Christ, in heaven, to pray for us?” you respond how?

Chapter and Verse please.

(I’ll supply the Chapter and Verse in Exodus, if you’d like! )

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Not so much, The scripture speaks of a church that is clear, it does not however point to the Catholic church any more than any other.

You’re kidding? Where we differ is on interpretation, but you can’t bring yourself to even agree with that. You have to persist like it’s something made up. I could say the very same thing about your interpretation.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

hmmmm steak. I love steak. Stakes are another story though…

You see, we acknowledge the acts of sinful people.

Protestant Churches are no more than 500 years old, many much younger than that. They are still popping up with new denominations all the time. Even as young as the Protestant Churches are, we could produce a list of sinful people who’ve led Churches. There’s not going to be a perfect people in any Church…

We agree again! see were agreeing more and more. I don point out flaws in RCC history to demean what she is today but rather to make clear that she has not been without error as some have pointed out on this thread. As for the earlier self righteous comment If it was meant for me, let me introduce myself. Im recovering junky, alcoholic, adulterer so not a lot room for self righteousness

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Ok now we can agree on something Yes the seven churches were all the same body of Christ. My point was not that these were the only churches or that there was not a church in Rome but rather that Rome not important enough to make the list. and that there is no indication that any one church was supposed to reign over the others. These churches had errors and the CC has had errors. that was my point.
I dont understand how you perceived me to be dishonest. and if you have covered this before Im sorry I must have missed it I have lost my place on this thread many times.

Well then if you feel those Churches were listed because they were in error, isn’t it possible the Church in Rome, started by Peter and Paul, were not in error?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

We agree again! see were agreeing more and more. I don point out flaws in RCC history to demean what she is today but rather to make clear that she has not been without error as some have pointed out on this thread. As for the earlier self righteous comment If it was meant for me, let me introduce myself. Im recovering junky, alcoholic, adulterer so not a lot room for self righteousness

The Church has taught God’s truth, even through sinful men. Kind of like Christ telling the people to listen to those who sat upon the chair of Moses. He said even the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, but it seems you think sinful men did???

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

Read through the thread and tell me if it’s been an honest discussion in your opinion? There are many threads on these forums and many issues being discussed. It gets disgusting to see some Protestants come here and make arguments simply to ‘bash’ Catholicism. We are Christians. Why do other Christians feel the necessity to come here to evangelize? There are atheists forums, Muslim forums, etc. etc.

Let me very clear, I in no way intend to bash anyone. It is my hope that after a few thousand years in heaven together one of us will turn to the other and ask,“What were those things we once debated?” Oh I just got the steak joke, funny spelling has never been my strong suit.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

I believe Paul wrote all those Churches. I believe the Apostles started all those Churches. I believe, because the Bible tells us that.

You realize the term Catholic Church was used prior to the New Testament coming together? St. Ignatius, disciple to St. John, and believed to have been appointed by St. Peter wrote…

See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution(55) of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper(56) Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.

That was written around 110 AD, about the same time as St. John wrote ‘Revelations’.

Where does the word come from? Scriptures…

**Acts 9:31

(IGNT+) αιG3588 THE μενG3303 INDEED ουνG3767 THEN εκκλησιαιG1577 ASSEMBLIES καθG2596 THROUGHOUT οληςG3650 WHOLE τηςG3588 THE ιουδαιαςG2449 OF JUDEA καιG2532 AND γαλιλαιαςG1056 GALILEE καιG2532 AND σαμαρειαςG4540 SAMARIA ειχονG2192 [G5707] HAD ειρηνηνG1515 PEACE, οικοδομουμεναιG3618 [G5746] BEING BUILT UP καιG2532 AND πορευομεναιG4198 [G5740] GOING ON τωG3588 IN THE φοβωG5401 FEAR τουG3588 OF THE κυριουG2962 LORD, καιG2532 AND τηG3588 IN THE παρακλησειG3874 COMFORT τουG3588 OF THE αγιουG40 HOLY πνευματοςG4151 SPIRIT επληθυνοντοG4129 [G5712] WERE INCREASED.

G2596
κατά
kata
kat-ah’
A primary particle; (preposition) down (in place or time), in varied relations (according to the case [genitive, dative or accusative] with which it is joined): - about, according as (to), after, against, (when they were) X alone, among, and, X apart, (even, like) as (concerning, pertaining to, touching), X aside, at, before, beyond, by, to the charge of, [charita-] bly, concerning, + covered, [dai-] ly, down, every, (+ far more) exceeding, X more excellent, for, from . . . to, godly, in (-asmuch, divers, every, -to, respect of), . . . by, after the manner of, + by any means, beyond (out of) measure, X mightily, more, X natural, of (up-) on (X part), out (of every), over against, (+ your) X own, + particularly, so, through (-oughout, -oughout every), thus, (un-) to (-gether, -ward), X uttermost, where (-by), with. In composition it retains many of these applications, and frequently denotes opposition, distribution or intensity.

G3650
ὅλος
holos
hol’-os
A primary word; “whole” or “all”, that is, complete (in extent, amount, time or degree), especially (neuter) as noun or adverb: - all, altogether, every whit, + throughout, whole.

kata holos
kat-ah’ hol’-os
Catholic is an adjective derived from the Greek adjective καθολικός (katholikos), meaning “universal”.**

this is why we should not confuse RCC with CC as Im sure I have

 

[SHW]

I hope you had a wonderful time with your wife.​

Was the one offering prayers (the other sid of the grave) dead? The one offering prayers prayed to the Lord on the dead saints.

No, we are alive with Christ if we are saved. He is the God of the living.

Mark 12:26-27
But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken.”