Why do non catholics dislike Mother Mary?

[graceandglory]

Why, may I ask, are we back to this? I never said the Bible says one MUST contracept. I HAVE said, IMO, the Bible DOES NOT forbid contraception (I suspect God is against us purposely using a contraception that kills the embryo).

Are you open to having your opinion challenged by the word of God?

onemoresoul.com/catalog/the-bible-and-birth-control-p193.html
au.video.yahoo.com/watch/451255/2518204

cantuar.blogspot.com/2008/03/bible-against-contraception.html

Human fertility is a blessing
Gen 1:27-28 – be fruitful and multiply
Ex 23:25-26; Deut 7:13-14 – fertility declared a covenantal blessing
Ps 127:3-5 – children are a gift from God…blessed is a quiver full
Hos 9:10-17 – Israel punished with childlessness
1 Tim 2:11-15 – women saved through childbearing
Lev 21:20 – crushed testicles called defect/blemish
Deut 23:1 – castrated men banned from OT worship

Withholding self and seed is unnatural and sinful
Gen 38:9-10 – Onan killed by God for spilling his semen on the ground
Acts 5:1-11 – Ananias/Saphira slain for withholding part of their gift

The OT punishes sterile sex with death
Lev 20:13 – death sentence for man with man (sterile sex)
Lev 20:15 – death sentence for man with animal (sterile sex)
Lev 20:16 – death sentence for woman with animals (sterile sex)

Artificial means of contraception condemned
Gal 5:20; Rev 9:2; Rev 21:8
These three passages condemn “sorcery”. However, the Greek word used is pharmakeia, a word denoting pharmaceutical contraceptives and abortificants.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

And Timothy when you get a chance how about hopping back over to the quoted thread, I’m still interested in that topic.
Pax

please give me the direct link to that thread, I believe I have deleted from the subscription…thanks.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Not at all, Timothy.

If an atheist says, “Where does it say in the Bible that we’re NOT supposed to commit adultery” the Christian can respond, “In Exodus!”

So, now the Catholic is asking you, “Wheredoes the Bible tell us NOT to ask those eternally alive in Christ, in heaven, to pray for us?” you respond how?

Chapter and Verse please.

(I’ll supply the Chapter and Verse in Exodus, if you’d like! )

No you don’t understand, you cannot prove a negative that does not exist, like the one you provided.

 

[Dokimas]

[SIGN]Human fertility is a blessing
Gen 1:27-28 – be fruitful and multiply
Ex 23:25-26; Deut 7:13-14 – fertility declared a covenantal blessing
Ps 127:3-5 – children are a gift from God…blessed is a quiver full
Hos 9:10-17 – Israel punished with childlessness
1 Tim 2:11-15 – women saved through childbearing
Lev 21:20 – crushed testicles called defect/blemish
Deut 23:1 – castrated men banned from OT worship

Withholding self and seed is unnatural and sinful
Gen 38:9-10 – Onan killed by God for spilling his semen on the ground
Acts 5:1-11 – Ananias/Saphira slain for withholding part of their gift

The OT punishes sterile sex with death
Lev 20:13 – death sentence for man with man (sterile sex)
Lev 20:15 – death sentence for man with animal (sterile sex)
Lev 20:16 – death sentence for woman with animals (sterile sex)

Artificial means of contraception condemned
Gal 5:20; Rev 9:2; Rev 21:8
These three passages condemn “sorcery”. However, the Greek word used is pharmakeia, a word denoting pharmaceutical contraceptives and abortificants. [/SIGN]​

Let’s first start with your Bible verses and sorcery.

Ga 5:20 idolatry, sorcery <5331>, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
Re 9:21 And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries <5331> or their sexual immorality or their thefts.
Re 18:23 "The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of bridegroom and bride shall not be heard in you anymore. For your merchants were the great men of the earth, for by your sorcery <5331> all the nations were deceived.​

I’m trying to make sense of your understanding of sorcery. One could make a case, it they were against contraception, that contraception would be part of sexual immorality. Then that would be redundant in Rev 9:21.​

Are you prepared to say that all nations were deceived because of contraception? Rev 18:23​

I’m not sure where you found your understanding of the Greek word for sorcery. Here’s what I found.

5331 φαρμακεια pharmakeia far-mak-i’-ah

from 5332; ; n f

AV-sorcery 2, witchcraft 1; 3

1. the use or the administering of drugs
2. poisoning
3. sorcery, magical arts, often found in connection with idolatry and fostered by it
4. metaph. the deceptions and seductions of idolatry

You have posted many wonderful verses. Many of them reveal the blessing of children.​

Are you saying that homosexual sex is wrong because it’s sterile? Are you saying beastiality is wrong because it’s sterile? I hope not.​

Onan was killed for disobedience to God’s law which had to do with brothers fathering a son with the widow of a brother, not for the act of spilling sperm. Onan did not want to father such a child.

 

[PRmerger]

No you don’t understand, you cannot prove a negative that does not exist, like the one you provided.

Exactly, Timothy, exactly! :extrahappy:

The verse that says, “Don’t pray to saints” does NOT exist in Scripture. So it’s your extra-Biblical tradition that claims it’s wrong to pray to saints.

Where does the Bible tell us NOT to ask those eternally alive in Christ, in heaven, to pray for us? [SIGN]Nowhere! [/SIGN] Timothy has affirmed that it does not exist.

 

[tweetymom]

[SIGN]Human fertility is a blessing
Gen 1:27-28 – be fruitful and multiply
Ex 23:25-26; Deut 7:13-14 – fertility declared a covenantal blessing
Ps 127:3-5 – children are a gift from God…blessed is a quiver full
Hos 9:10-17 – Israel punished with childlessness
1 Tim 2:11-15 – women saved through childbearing
Lev 21:20 – crushed testicles called defect/blemish
Deut 23:1 – castrated men banned from OT worship

Withholding self and seed is unnatural and sinful
Gen 38:9-10 – Onan killed by God for spilling his semen on the ground
Acts 5:1-11 – Ananias/Saphira slain for withholding part of their gift

The OT punishes sterile sex with death
Lev 20:13 – death sentence for man with man (sterile sex)
Lev 20:15 – death sentence for man with animal (sterile sex)
Lev 20:16 – death sentence for woman with animals (sterile sex)

Artificial means of contraception condemned
Gal 5:20; Rev 9:2; Rev 21:8
These three passages condemn “sorcery”. However, the Greek word used is pharmakeia, a word denoting pharmaceutical contraceptives and abortificants. [/SIGN]​

Let’s first start with your Bible verses and sorcery.

Ga 5:20 idolatry, sorcery <5331>, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
Re 9:21 And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries <5331> or their sexual immorality or their thefts.
Re 18:23 "The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of bridegroom and bride shall not be heard in you anymore. For your merchants were the great men of the earth, for by your sorcery <5331> all the nations were deceived.​

I’m trying to make sense of your understanding of sorcery. One could make a case, it they were against contraception, that contraception would be part of sexual immorality. Then that would be redundant in Rev 9:21.​

Are you prepared to say that all nations were deceived because of contraception? Rev 18:23​

I’m not sure where you found your understanding of the Greek word for sorcery. Here’s what I found.

5331 φαρμακεια pharmakeia far-mak-i’-ah

from 5332; ; n f

AV-sorcery 2, witchcraft 1; 3

1. the use or the administering of drugs
2. poisoning
3. sorcery, magical arts, often found in connection with idolatry and fostered by it
4. metaph. the deceptions and seductions of idolatry

You have posted many wonderful verses. Many of them reveal the blessing of children.​

Are you saying that homosexual sex is wrong because it’s sterile? Are you saying beastiality is wrong because it’s sterile? I hope not.​

Onan was killed for disobedience to God’s law which had to do with brothers fathering a son with the widow of a brother, not for the act of spilling sperm. Onan did not want to father such a child.

Dokimas you are so right. I wonder why on whatever thread you are on someone always brings up contraception? Seems like that is foremost in some peoples mind. Then you have to spend most of the thread in talking about that instead if the topic. Amazing to me. God Bless you Dokimas, and you mother-in-law?

 

[Dokimas]

But, Dokimas, aren’t you saying that it’s ok to have “extra-Biblical” teachings, as long as they don’t contradict Scripture? Yes. However, if anyone does have ‘extra-Biblical’ teachings we can’t be held to them as ‘THE WORD of GOD’.

If that’s what you’re saying, then you are opposing the CC’s teaching against ABC (artificial birth control) because it must contradict something in Scripture, right? Not exactly. I am saying the CC has not right to say God is against ABC without text proof, which to my knowledge it does not. Would you agree that saying or implying, ‘Thus says the Lord,’ should NEVER be taken lightly and should not contradict the Bible?

So since there’s no verses in Scripture that say one must contracept, then the CC’s teaching against ABC does not contradict Scripture, correct? Is there any verse that says ABC is a sin?

So you’re agreed that this “extra-Biblical” tradition of the immorality of ABC falls in the same category as your “extra-Biblica” traditions? I think I spoke to this question in a response above.

 

[izoid]

Exactly, Timothy, exactly! :extrahappy:

The verse that says, “Don’t pray to saints” does NOT exist in Scripture. So it’s your extra-Biblical tradition that claims it’s wrong to pray to saints.

Where does the Bible tell us NOT to ask those eternally alive in Christ, in heaven, to pray for us? [SIGN]Nowhere! [/SIGN] Timothy has affirmed that it does not exist.

You mean it doesn’t make sense to you?

If scripture does not specifically say to do it, we shouldn’t. If scripture does not specifically say not to do it, we should. :whacky::whacky::whacky:

 

[Dokimas]

Dokimas you are so right. I wonder why on whatever thread you are on someone always brings up contraception? Seems like that is foremost in some peoples mind. Then you have to spend most of the thread in talking about that instead if the topic. Amazing to me. God Bless you Dokimas, and you mother-in-law?

Thank you.​

I sure hope none of us are the issue. I hope only Jesus is the issue. It reminds me of the tranfiguration. Moses and Elijah were transfigured with Jesus. The three disciples with Jesus wanted to build something special for all three. When it was all said and done, there was only Jesus in their midst. The disciple misunderstood what happened. The focus must always be on Jesus, not you, not me, not any church. I know you agree. Thank you.

 

[graceandglory]

You have posted many wonderful verses. Many of them reveal the blessing of children.​

Are you saying that homosexual sex is wrong because it’s sterile? Are you saying beastiality is wrong because it’s sterile? I hope not.​

Onan was killed for disobedience to God’s law which had to do with brothers fathering a son with the widow of a brother, not for the act of spilling sperm. Onan did not want to father such a child.

The difference here is that you read with only your own limited human understanding based only on the words of the page. I have studied and read through the eyes of the Church, who is my Authority on moral matters that are hard to understand from Scripture alone.

When we understand God’s heart on the matter in one moral area, we can also say that God has the same heart in another moral area. Don’t just think in terms of prohibition, think in terms of what He calls us to do. God created us for a purpose, and that is to glorify Him always. To use our created bodies for the purpose they were created. God commanded “Be fruitful and multiply.” Homosexuality, bestiality, masturbation, and contracepted sex are all closed to life, and therefore they go against his first commandment. There are other ways contracepted sex is sinful, primarily is that it is selfish. It is not giving of self to the spouse, but taking sexual gratification from the spouse. It is using what God created, but taking God’s purpose away from it. It is keeping God out of the sexual union between husband and wife, and saying, “My will be done, not thine.”
More here.
christopherwest.com/article4.asp

 

[tweetymom]

Thank you.​

I sure hope none of us are the issue. I hope only Jesus is the issue. It reminds me of the tranfiguration. Moses and Elijah were transfigured with Jesus. The three disciples with Jesus wanted to build something special for all three. When it was all said and done, there was only Jesus in their midst. The disciple misunderstood what happened. The focus must always be on Jesus, not you, not me, not any church. I know you agree. Thank you.

Yep you are right again and I do agree with you. Jesus is first in my life then my husband then the kids, etc. Jesus is the way not a Church building.

 

[Dokimas]

I think this post reflects your unwillingness to have productive dialog. These are childish games that will never lead to any understanding. Kinda like, “my dad can beat your dad up”.

My only way to view this comment and make sense of it is to say you do not understand my comment.

 

[PRmerger]

**Dokimas, if you could respond to quotes by adding this code to the end of each phrase you’re responding to: **, it would make responding to your posts much easier. (This way, your response won’t be nestled inside the poster’s response.)

Yes. However, if anyone does have ‘extra-Biblical’ teachings we can’t be held to them as ‘THE WORD of GOD’.

The CC’s teaching on ABC is not in the same category as the Word of God. Scripture and Tradition hold a place of primacy in our paradigm. However, we do believe that pesky verse in Scripture that says, “he who hears you hears me” means that when the Magisterium speaks, Jesus is speaking.

I am saying the CC has not right to say God is against ABC without text proof, which to my knowledge it does not.

Why does it require text proof? Does the Bible say that all teachings require text proof?

Do you have a text proof for the list of books which belong in the Bible?

Would you agree that saying or implying, ‘Thus says the Lord,’ should NEVER be taken lightly and should not contradict the Bible?

Yes, I would. But, again, there is no verse in Scripture that contradicts the CC’s teaching on ABC.

 

[graceandglory]

Dokimas you are so right. I wonder why on whatever thread you are on someone always brings up contraception? **Seems like that is foremost in some peoples mind. **Then you have to spend most of the thread in talking about that instead if the topic. Amazing to me. God Bless you Dokimas, and you mother-in-law?

Because it is a source of contention between protestants and Catholics especially when discussing sola scriptura. And because we are human beings, made in God’s image, but in the flesh. It just proves that there really is a theology of the body, and a Gospel of Life.

And often times, when a protestant’s arguments don’t win over a Catholic, it comes down to what does my flesh really want. Sex is often the biggest stumbling block to becoming a Catholic for many protestants, when they are honest with themselves.

 

[Dokimas]

The difference here is that you read with only your own limited human understanding based only on the words of the page. I have studied and read through the eyes of the Church, who is my Authority on moral matters that are hard to understand from Scripture alone. This is quite a revealing statement.

When we understand God’s heart on the matter in one moral area, we can also say that God has the same heart in another moral area. Don’t just think in terms of prohibition, think in terms of what He calls us to do. God created us for a purpose, and that is to glorify Him always. To use our created bodies for the purpose they were created. God commanded “Be fruitful and multiply.” Is that a command found in the NT? Homosexuality, bestiality, masturbation, and contracepted sex are all closed to life, and therefore they go against his first commandment. There are other ways contracepted sex is sinful, primarily is that it is selfish. It is not giving of self to the spouse, but taking sexual gratification from the spouse. It is using what God created, but taking God’s purpose away from it. It is keeping God out of the sexual union between husband and wife, and saying, “My will be done, not thine.” Sounds like you are condeming Mary if she remained celebate for her whole marriage to Joseph.
More here.
christopherwest.com/article4.asp

 

[PRmerger]

If scripture does not specifically say to do it, we shouldn’t.

Kind of makes the question, “Have you accepted Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior” wrong, doesn’t it? Scripture doesn’t tell us to ask that question, anywhere.

 

[Dokimas]

Kind of makes the question, “Have you accepted Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior” wrong, doesn’t it? Scripture doesn’t tell us to ask that question, anywhere.

It does say:
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

 

[tweetymom]

Because it is a source of contention between protestants and Catholics especially when discussing sola scriptura. And because we are human beings, made in God’s image, but in the flesh. It just proves that there really is a theology of the body, and a Gospel of Life.

And often times, when a protestant’s arguments don’t win over a Catholic, it comes down to what does my flesh really want. Sex is often the biggest stumbling block to becoming a Catholic for many protestants, when they are honest with themselves.

Sex is not a stumbling block to me, not trying to win anything just stating facts.

 

[PRmerger]

Sex is often the biggest stumbling block to becoming a Catholic for many protestants, when they are honest with themselves.

Indeed.

Most Protestants have bought the Evil One’s lie that sex without a baby ever entering the picture is our *entitlement *as human beings.

 

[tweetymom]

Indeed.

Most Protestants have bought the Evil One’s lie that sex without a baby ever entering the picture is our *entitlement *as human beings.

Really! Glad you know so much