Why do non catholics dislike Mother Mary?

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Randy_Carson said:
Oh, good…an easy one!

The Infallibility of the Catholic Church Proved from Scripture

The following verses suggest that the Catholic Church is protected by God from ever teaching error in matters of faith and morals, and questions concerning each verse are provided as food for thought.

Matthew 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

Q: If Jesus promised to build his own church and that Church ever fell into doctrinal error, would this mean that a) Jesus was a liar, b) Jesus did not have the power to protect his own church, or c) Jesus was incompetent as a church builder?

Matthew 18:15-18
If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

Q: If the Church has the authority to bind and loose on earth in a manner that is also true in heaven, then assuming that there is no error in heaven, can the Church err on earth?

Matthew 28:20
And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

Q: If the Church fell into doctrinal error at any time during the nearly 1500 years before the Protestant Reformation, did Jesus remain with the Church “always”?

Luke 10:16
“He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

Q: If the Church speaks with such authority that those who hear the Church are actually hearing Christ and such that anyone who rejects the words of the Church are rejecting Christ Himself, can the Church ever be allowed to speak error on behalf of Jesus?

John 14:15-16
15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—

Q: If the Church fell into doctrinal error, would this indicate that Jesus did not give the Counselor or that the Counselor simply failed to remain with the Church “forever”?

John 14:18
18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

Q: If the Church ever fell into doctrinal error, did Jesus actually leave us as “orphans” during all that time?

John 14:26
26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

Q: Despite this promise, did the Holy Spirit fail to teach the Church “all things” or to remind the Church of the things that Jesus had said to the Apostles?

John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

Q: Did the Holy Spirit fail to guide the Church into all truth?

Now, consider the following three verses:

1 John 4:4
4You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.

1 Timothy 3:13
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Mark 3:27
27In fact, no one can enter a strong man’s house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can rob his house.

Q: Is Satan stronger than Jesus, is the Church the household of God, and can Satan rob the Church of the deposit of truth by “binding” Jesus in any way?

In light of the above, is it possible that the Church fell into doctrinal error? Taken individually, each of these verses creates a problem for those that assert that the Church “went off the rails” at some point in history. Taken as a whole, they portray Christ’s own involvement in building, nurturing and protecting His Church until the end of time. The Catholic Church remains strong and vibrant – not by her own efforts or innate qualities – but because God Himself is leading and guiding her to ensure that “the gates of hell will not overcome it.”
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Wasn’t talking about these men was talking about the Catholic Bishops, Popes.
 
Dokimas said:
They are not my cousins. Fellow Christians are Blood brothers and sisters by the Blood of Jesus.
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Nice try, but no dice.

Your fellow Christians may be your “brothers”, but they are not your uterine brothers.

However, your insistence on using the term only illustrates the alternative meanings of the word. The “brothers” of Jesus mentioned in scripture weren’t uterine siblings, either.

I have never seen a non-Catholic make this point more clearly. Good job. 👍
 
rev_kevin said:
Yes I believe there is a heaven.
I don’t really talk to the dead, I may think about them and say I miss them and wish they were here but to ask them to pray for me, no I don’t.

I don’t pray to them I see no need to I pray to God and nobody eles.
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Amen to that and God Bless and Happy New Year to you and your family.
 
rev_kevin said:
And so can the Bishop’s, Pope’s who interpetered the Bible and gave your Dogma’s be wrong. There is not a human being that is infallible, we are all fallible.
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Rev, you are making so much sense. Some people like to split hairs.God Bless
 
rev_kevin said:
And so can the Bishop’s, Pope’s who interpetered the Bible and gave your Dogma’s be wrong. There is not a human being that is infallible, we are all fallible.
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I can understand why you, as a non-Catholic pastor, have to make this argument in light of your own condition. Anything more would be untrue.

But sense you’re fallible, could it be that you are wrong about the leaders of the Church that Jesus promised to build, remain with forever and send the Holy Spirit? Talk about irony. 😛

Seriously, though, I’m guessing that you believe that infallibility means more than it actually does, and this is overstatement (in your own mind) is the source of your discomfort with the doctrine.
 
Randy_Carson said:
Please start by telling us whether you are a Jehovah’s Witness. Your views that the souls of those who have died are asleep is not orthodox Christianity.

Thank you for sharing your opinion.

This is confusing. First you say that original sin does not pass down…then you say that our nature has been changed. Thus, the nature that we receive from our father (and mother) is a fallen nature. You are saying two things.

Ah…we have inherited a fallen, sinful nature. Consequently, we have a tendency to sin. However, we are not born innocent. We are born under condemnation as a result of the fallen nature that we inherit.

Uh…because it’s true?

The word you’re searching for in “consummated” not consumed, but I suspect English is not your first language. No problem…I don’t speak a word of Spanish. 😛

Where does the Bible teach that Mary consummated her marriage with Joseph by having sexual union? Chapter and verse, please.

Oh? If Joseph was a widower, would the fact that he had been married previously to a woman who died make him unrighteous? :nope:

Nothing - despite a nagging myth that the Catholic Church is somehow against it. We argue for the Perpetual Virginity because it is true, and the truth will set you free, brother. 👍
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AMEN!!!:clapping:
 
Randy_Carson said:
Rev-

Let’s assume for the moment that God did call you to become a minister and that this was not simply a career choice based upon your own interests and inclinations, okay? I’m being serious…God may have called you to be a minister.

My opinion is that God sees that a large portion of His flock has wandered away from the fold of the Catholic Church - the one Church that He promised to build. Further, God sees that this situation is not going to change for the lifetimes of many of His sheep.

Consequently, He needs people to shepherd these lost sheep as best they can until they can be rounded up and returned to the care of the shepherds that He established beginning with Peter, the rock, and the successors of the Apostles, the Bishops of the Catholic Church.

Therefore, take care of those entrusted to you because you are a man who will be called to give an account (cf. Hebrews 13:17).
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Let’s assume I’m right and God did call me to be a minister because he don’t see the Catholic church as the one true church.
Let’s assume that God intendes for ministers to spread his word to sheep that are not lost.
Let’s assume that Christ is the church and we are a part of his church.
Let’s assume God don’t care what denomination.
Let’s assume that when Jesus said to Peter upon this rock I will build my church, he meant his teachings.
 
Randy_Carson said:
Nice try, but no dice.

Your fellow Christians may be your “brothers”, but they are not your uterine brothers.

However, your insistence on using the term only illustrates the alternative meanings of the word. The “brothers” of Jesus mentioned in scripture weren’t uterine siblings, either.

I have never seen a non-Catholic make this point more clearly. Good job. 👍
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Are they cousins? If you want to translate the word used for James and Jose etc as cousins, then why shouldn’t ‘brothers in Christ’ be cousins in Christ?
 
tweetymom said:
Rev, you are making so much sense. Some people like to split hairs.God Bless
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Tweety-

I knew from previous exchanges that you reject the Church’s teaching regarding artificial birth control. Now, I see that you reject the doctrine of infallibility, as well.

Hmmm…perhaps this explains why you have removed the designation of “Catholic” from your personal bio.

Got tired of being called out, eh? 😉
 
Randy_Carson said:
Tweety-

I knew that as a cafeteria Catholic, you reject the Church’s teaching regarding artificial birth control. Now, I see that you reject the doctrine of infallibility, as well.

Hmmm…perhaps this explains why you have removed the designation of “Catholic” from your personal bio.

Got tired of being called out, eh? 😉
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Nope, call me out anytime you want to I am a tough old broad and you cannot ever get the best of me, besides Jesus is in my corner.
 
Funny how the same people who claim that the Popes could have (and imply strongly that they DID) ‘get it wrong’ on certain Catholic teachings have no problem whatsoever believing that these very same Popes absolutely ‘got it right’ when it came to the canon of the Bible.

Only the Bible is protected? Where exactly is that in the Bible, that Christ would only protect a valuable, but incomplete, part of His teaching (leatherette and KJV preferred) but that He would allow His Church to stumble about and make mistakes in teaching the Faith in everything else? The Bible is not self-interpreting and indeed, private interpretation (see 2 Peter) is forbidden. . .

I have a very important question. Why does the Holy Spirit allow one group of Protestant Christians to teach in His Name that the Eucharist is literally Christ’s flesh and blood–and another group (also claiming in the Name of the Spirit) teaching that it is not? The two claims cannot both be true. . .one is true, one is false. . .but (using Scripture alone) please prove to me which of the two is correct.

I’ll be anxiously waiting.
 
Randy_Carson said:
Worship
Praise
Thanksgiving
Intercession

There are lots of things we can do in our “prayer time” and not all of them are worship.

Similarly, we can talk to the saints and angels just as we talk to God without worshipping them.
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I don’t know how many posts you have read here but I never said the Catholics worship them.
 
Dokimas said:
Are they cousins? If you want to translate the word used for James and Jose etc as cousins, then why shouldn’t ‘brothers in Christ’ be cousins in Christ?
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No, because the word “brother” has more than one meaning as you yourself proved.

He does, of course, have many spiritual brothers (and sisters) as you rightly point out.

However, for the purposes of discussion regarding the Virgin Mary, the word “brother” cannot be used properly to refer to anyone related to Jesus because Jesus did not have uterine brothers.
 
Randy_Carson said:
No, because the word “brother” has more than one meaning as you yourself proved.

He does, of course, have many spiritual brothers (and sisters) as you rightly point out.

However, for the purposes of discussion regarding the Virgin Mary, the word “brother” cannot be used properly to refer to anyone related to Jesus because Jesus did not have uterine brothers.
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Your problem could be that you start with a wrong presupposition. Sure if Mary never had more children then James and Jose couldn’t be His brothers no matter what the Bible seems to say. Because you start with that presupposition, there’s no reasoning another understanding with you.
 
Randy_Carson said:
No, because the word “brother” has more than one meaning as you yourself proved.

He does, of course, have many spiritual brothers (and sisters) as you rightly point out.

However, for the purposes of discussion regarding the Virgin Mary, the word “brother” cannot be used properly to refer to anyone related to Jesus because Jesus did not have uterine brothers.
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I don’t understand why its so hard think that Jesus had blood brothers and sisters.
It as plain as the nose on your face that he did.
 
Randy_Carson said:
No, because the word “brother” has more than one meaning as you yourself proved.

He does, of course, have many spiritual brothers (and sisters) as you rightly point out.

However, for the purposes of discussion regarding the Virgin Mary, the word “brother” cannot be used properly to refer to anyone related to Jesus because Jesus did not have uterine brothers.
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I’m still wondering if James and John were cousins and whether Andrew and Peter were cousins also.
 
Dokimas said:
Care to quote Peter from his writings?
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It is not in his writings. 🙂

The apostles’ main mission was to "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20** teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you**; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Matthew 28:18-20

The early apostles had their hands full trying to teach the disciples the very basic tenets of the faith. If you read the epistles, it is quite plain to see that many of these disciples were not particularly good listeners. The epistles were written as supplements to oral teaching. They were never meant to take the place of oral teaching 2 Thessalonians 2:15, 2 John 1:12, 3 John 1:13-14 1 Corinthians 11:2.

Jesus commanded His Church leaders to go out and make disciples of all the nations through Baptism and to teach them to obey Jesus’ gospel James 1:20-22. They were constantly on the move; preaching/teaching, establishing churches, and at the same time, they were also being severely persecuted and killed for their faith. Saul/Paul, a devout Pharisee of the tribe of Benjamin, was one of those who first persecuted them Acts 8:1-3, Acts 9:1-6. Later, both He and Peter and all the rest of the apostles except for John the evangelist were martyred. It is said that they tried to kill John also with boiling oil, but God protected him from death.

It was not until the Emperor Constantine legalized Christianity in the 4th Century that they did not have to fear for their lives. But, the fact that Mary is ever-virgin was believed by the ECF.
Athanasius
“Let those, therefore, who deny that the Son is by nature from the Father and proper to his essence deny also that he took true human flesh from the ever-virgin Mary” (Discourses Against the Arians 2:70 [A.D. 360]).
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We can know other things about her because Jesus is the last king in the Davidic line and He fulfills all things perfectly. The mothers of kings in the Davidic line are queen mothers. The queens in the Davidic line are never the wives of kings. So, if Jesus is our king, then Mary is our queen mother.
 
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