Why do non catholics dislike Mother Mary?

[MyRdmrLvs]

Will Christ allow His Church, whichever church you think that is, teach falsehood?

No thats why He gave us the Bible.

 

[guanophore]

Your problem could be that you start with a wrong presupposition. Sure if Mary never had more children then James and Jose couldn’t be His brothers no matter what the Bible seems to say. Because you start with that presupposition, there’s no reasoning another understanding with you.

It is not a problem for us, Doki.

It is not a wrong presupposition, either. We do start with what we have received from the Apostles. Since we know that nothing in the NT can contradict the Teachings of the Apostles, we know that we must understand what is written in the light of what was handed down.

What has been handed down to us is that Mary was a perpetual virgin. In the light of that we can interpret the meaning of the scriptures.

We also know that the Scriptures don’t contradict themselves. So, when they say:

Mar 15:40 There were also women looking on from a distance, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome.

It is clear that this Mary, who was the mother of James, Joses, and Salome, is NOT the mother of Jesus, who is right at the foot of the cross with the beloved disciple.

We further have this passage:

Joh 19:25 but standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.

That clarifies for us that the Mary who is the mother of James and Joses is describes as Jesus’ mother’s “sister”. Now, since it is unlikely that two girls from the same parents would both be called Mary, then it is possible that this Mary is Joseph’s sister or possibly married to her brother. In any case, a very near relative.

We also see that she is the wife of Clopas, making it clear that Clopas is the father of James, Joses, and Salome.

Since we also know that Alphaeus and Clopas are the same person, we know that James the son of Alphaeus elsewhere called “the brother of the Lord” is the son of Mary (Jesus’ “aunt”) and Alphaeus. In no case are James and Joses uterine brothers of Jesus.

Therefore, you are right, James and Joses are not the uterine brothers of Jesus “no matter what the bible SEEMS to say”.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

I think it is possible to honor the Mother of Jesus without realizing that He has given her to all of us as Mother. He is generous, and always shares the best He has with those He has adopted.

I think that many honor Mary without realizing that the phrase “HS shall overshadow you” is a Hebraism that reflects the man “overshadowing” the woman in intercourse.

Rejecting the perpetual virginity does dishonor Mary. It means that she went back on her vow to God, which is a faithless thing for anyone to do. It means she gave herself to Him in service and devotion, then took back her gift to use it another way.

No. There was nothing physically preventing Mary from having children. Joseph accepted that she was consecrated to God as a sacred vessel.

Wow. I hope your right because if your wrong you are passing judgment on the mother of our Lord. when you get to heven and find out you were wrong and meet her face to face. awkward!

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

In a Mass for example, Mary is mentioned once. “And I ask Blessed Mary, ever Virgin, all the angels and saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God.”

It might take a second. The rest of the prayers are directed toward God.

thats a helpful perspective.

 

[guanophore]

I don’t understand why its so hard think that Jesus had blood brothers and sisters.
It as plain as the nose on your face that he did.

You will have to dispatch those scriptures I just posted to make it more plain on my face, rev.

We are not at liberty to deny any part of the One Faith that was handed down to us from the Apostles, however convenient it might seem to do so.

I’m still wondering if James and John were cousins and whether Andrew and Peter were cousins also.

Indeed, I wonder too. The evidence that we have is incomplete. It sure would be a lot easier if we had more details. The main detail we do have is that Mary remained a virgin. Therefore, whatever the relationships, they must be understood in that light.

 

[guanophore]

I guess that takes us back to the verse that tells us Joseph did not know Mary till she delivered her firstborn Son, Jesus.​

BTW, anyone getting the feeling one side of this issue is telling Jesus Him mother had to have had more children and the other side of this issue is telling Him there’s no way Your mother could not possibly have more children?

Anyone who takes a vow of celibacy can forsake it, and follow teh desires of the flesh. Mary chose to honor her vow, and Joseph chose to honor it with her, as he was a just man. This is why the Church honors him as her “most chaste spouse”.

 

[guanophore]

I don’t think that Non Catholics dislike Mary Mother of Jesus but they feel that they don’t need her to act as a mediator to talk to Jesus Christ.

They feel that that can walk, talk and converse directly with Jesus, That is what empowers them not passing messages thru an intermediatory, be it a priest, a bishop, a pope or even Jesus’s mother but direct communication.

Most non catholic christian religions have a problems with the desire of the catholic church to interceed between them and God. They feel that no person born on earth other that Jesus has the right, the authority to speak on behalf God. No Human being is infallable.

When Jesus returns (Book of Revelations) He alone will rule on earth, No Popes to pretend that their God.

Welcome to CAF light. Thank you for participating in the thread. You are right that we can converse directly with Jesus. This does not exclude having other family relationships.

It seems clear that you do not understand infallibility, or the role of the Pope. However these issues will need another thread.

One can be a legitimate authority without being divine.

I find your accusation that the Popes “pretend they are God” insulting. Since this is only your third post here, perhaps you have not had time to read the forum rules. Now would be a good time.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

:banghead:

Oh dear, this is like verbal diarrhea. Do you normally pretend to talk with expertise concerning things you know little about?

Catholics and Orthodox honor the Mother of God because she bore the God of the universe in her womb. Why don’t you follow the Bible? She said “all generations shall call me blessed.” (Luke 1:48)

In Christ,
Andrew

Andrew, time to switch to decaf, it was a joke.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

I agree with you, and think it is disgusting that there are “40000” Christian denominations. However, the Catholic Church should take some responsibility for that, the leadership was responsible in part for many of the people that fell away and formed their own denominations. Why are there Orthodox, Anglican or other churches?? This isn’t Catholics vs. Protestants, ALL Christians were at one time Catholics.

Christians need to come back together as one, and instead of all the infighting we should all focus on loving one another, being brothers and sisters towards each other and deciding how we all get back to being one Christian family. If that’s the Catholic Church, fine, but right now current Catholics come off as uppity and “know it alls”, even though there have been numerous evil, vile acts committed by those in the Church over the years. We must all be conciliatory and respectful of each other, what matters is whether we love Jesus Christ, believe in the Trinity, and walk in His ways. Do any of you think God looks down and is happy with any of the “Churches”(Catholic or otherwise)?? You may want to defend the Church or others may want to defend their denomination, but in our hearts we know we are all falling way, way short of God’s Will. I pray for us all.

If you counted every Catholic church that has a priest that disagrees with at least one catholic teaching as a separate denomination there would no doubt be thousands. My church is not apart of a larger denomination but it shares the same doctrines with thousands of other churches that would be counted as separate churches.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

No. There is One Church, One Baptism.

The 40,000 thing is* someone else’s *design. Someone else who’s the author of chaos and confusion./QUOTE

So you are suggesting my church is of the devil??

 

[guanophore]

If she was dishonest she would avoid all the grief her Christian family is giving her.

Actually the opposite is true. We don’t expect those who admit they are Protestant to accept the Apostolic Teachings.

Hold On are you saying her soul is in jeopardy for not believing in praying to Mary???

No, it is in jeapardy for rejecting the teachings of the Church. There would be less jeapardy if she did not claim to be Catholic, but since she does,…

Clearly, there is some positive repercussions to her in proclaiming to be a Catholic here while espousing Episcopalian or Methodist or Church of God beliefs.

It is an effective way to cause scandal to the Catholic faith, for sure. However, her beliefs are Baptist.

I bet her priest knows what most priests know if they kick out every catholic that doesn’t believe every catholic doctrine. they wouldn’t have a congregation left.

Everyone is welcome in the Catholic Church. There is no requirement that they become Catholic. If someone claims to be catholic, they are expected to embrace and represent the doctrines of the Church.

 

[Cristian_B]

…]
Is that the way of Almighty God? Does He ‘use’ Mary to have a son, and then --just like Zeus and the Olympian bunch, let her ‘go on with life’ as though all that mattered was her ‘incubating’ a god?

Because either Mary is no more than a victim of a god’s desire to beget a child. . .and can then go on with her original plan to be wife/mother of her human husband. . .or she is something else. . .something completely different. Rather than being simply an incubator, she is not only the Mother of God (heck, lots of human women, according to the pagans, were mothers of gods, demi-gods, half-gods, etc.), but she is also the spouse of God as well.
…]

That’s the point, but not completely. Yes, Mary was a vessel. No, God did not let her “go on with life”. He did not leave her as He does not leave us. I’m sure you’ll find her in Heaven, but not as a queen, or not as a queen by herself. Have you not read the Scriptures saying that the Church is the bride of Jesus Christ? Have you not heard that Jesus Christ is one with God? Thus, the Church is the “bride” of God. And it will be the empress or queen of Heaven. Since Mary (I suppose) was part of the Church she will be queen, but not alone. She will be queen with us, at the resurrection.

So no, Mary is not something different. She was a sinner like everyone else. Not pagan, but sinner. She is not more powerful than we are, but she is part of the same Church as we are. She is not the queen of Heaven, but the Church is. God did not leave her; He was with her as He is with us.

 

[Dokimas]

But then she also wouldn’t be getting all the Protestants querulously telling us to “leave the poor, sweet little old lady alone” either.

Clearly, there is some positive repercussions to her in proclaiming to be a Catholic here while espousing Episcopalian or Methodist or Church of God beliefs.

You seem to love to make it ‘us’ against them.’ So …
…If you would ‘police’ your own, then others wouldn’t have to step in and remind you all to stop the foolishness.​

 

[Dokimas]

:banghead:

Oh dear, this is like verbal diarrhea. Do you normally pretend to talk with expertise concerning things you know little about?

Catholics and Orthodox honor the Mother of God because she bore the God of the universe in her womb. Why don’t you follow the Bible? She said “all generations shall call me blessed.” (Luke 1:48)

In Christ,
Andrew

Believe it or not, those of us on this side of the ‘isle’ feel the same way as you do for opposite reasons. Here’s the wall one or both of us is banging our heads against …

1 Corinthians 1:
10 ¶ Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions (How big would the CC be if there wasn’t such a defection? How much arguments are there within the CC especially in the US? This is not a judgement, this is an observation that whether you want to admit it or not, you’re in this with us. We all better get back to the Gospel of the Loving Savior) among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
11 For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you.
12 Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.”
13 ** Is Christ divided**? Don’t tell me about protestants. You of the CC, keep us at arms lenth because we don’t accept some of your teachings because we think the Bible teaches differently. Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
14 ¶ I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius,
15 lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name.
16 Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other.
17 ¶ For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.​

1 Corinthians 3:
1 ¶ And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ.
2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able;
3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?
4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” (or Peter or Mary or Luther or Graham or the CC or Dokimas or Guanophore or PRmerger or etc.) are you not carnal?
5 ¶ Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one?
6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase.
7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.

 

[Dokimas]

I agree with you, and think it is disgusting that there are “40000” Christian denominations. However, the Catholic Church should take some responsibility for that, the leadership was responsible in part for many of the people that fell away and formed their own denominations. Why are there Orthodox, Anglican or other churches?? This isn’t Catholics vs. Protestants, ALL Christians were at one time Catholics.

Christians need to come back together as one, and instead of all the infighting we should all focus on loving one another, being brothers and sisters towards each other and deciding how we all get back to being one Christian family. If that’s the Catholic Church, fine, but right now current Catholics come off as uppity and “know it alls”, even though there have been numerous evil, vile acts committed by those in the Church over the years. We must all be conciliatory and respectful of each other, what matters is whether we love Jesus Christ, believe in the Trinity, and walk in His ways. Do any of you think God looks down and is happy with any of the “Churches”(Catholic or otherwise)?? You may want to defend the Church or others may want to defend their denomination, but in our hearts we know we are all falling way, way short of God’s Will. I pray for us all.

Very well put.​

The only thing I haven’t seen is a defense made of protestant denominations by non-catholic Christians. I see an attempt to reconcil some of the teachings of the CC with what the Bible says. While I’d love to join with my catholic brothers and sister in worship of our God and Savior, if I must do it on their terms, ‘Houston, we have a problem.’ I’d love to win the souls of the lost to our God and Savior hand in hand with fellow brothers and sister in Christ from the CC. But if that means we have to tell lthe new converts to Christ they must go to the CC to be complete, ‘Houston, we have a problem.’

 

[Dokimas]

I hope Tweetymom’s priest has more guts than you. I hope he stands with her as she seeks God’s will for her own life. If Tweetymom has changed her identity from Catholic, it’s because you all force her to. I can’t believe how many posts were wasted by you all on such childish bullying. SHAME ON YOU ALL!!!

 

[Dokimas]

That, too, is simply :whacky:

The Magisterium does not teach error in the areas of faith and morals.

That is quite different from saying the CC is the right church because it has “never been wrong.”

Says who, the Magisterium. Circular reasoning.

 

[Dokimas]

Because the Holy Spirit knew that [SIGN]God’s Revelation would not be reserved to only the written word. [/SIGN] He knew that He’d give us the Church to make it clear for us what His Word meant.

Nice try

 

[Dokimas]

What you are called is irrelevant what matters is that your name is written in the Lambs book of life.
Belief is what is required for salvation but that belief will bring about action. if it doesn’t bring about action then you better take a hard look at whether you really believe.

Good points.

 

[Dokimas]

Do you think the NT Church was Catholic? The NT church was and is universall (catholic).

If not, when did the CC start? After the 1st century.

Do you think they ever had any authority? Sure, but how much was God given and how much was man taken are valid questions. Teachings true to the Bible are God given; teaching questioned by the Bible are man taken authority.

If there is no such gift as infallibility The Holy Spirit is infallible and to the degree He is free to do His work in and through our lives, His infallible work can be experienced, how can you depend upon anything with regard to the faith? Wrong presupposition results in false conclusions. If God is not able to preserve His word through men Wrong conclusion, how can you trust that the bible is valid? The Holy Spirit moves fallible men that are yielding to Him.