Why do non catholics dislike Mother Mary?

[PRmerger]

First of all, as I said in my post I don’t want to discuss the issue you may have with Tweetymom; I just wanted to make a point with the example.​

Secondly, I hope you realize there’s a vast difference between true Muslims and true Christians. There’s no real grounds for comparrison. However, I hope we can agree there is a reasonable relationship between catholics and non-catholic Christians.

It’s merely an analogy, Dokimas. I am not comparing Muslim theology and Christian theology.

I’m just giving you the situation so you can understand how we feel. Would you not admonish someone who claims to be a Christian yet says she doesn’t believe Jesus is Divine?

Oh, and in my scenario, this Christian great-grandma gives the “high five!” and “amen!” comments to Muslims when they say anti-Christian sentiments or say, “Allah the most Merciful could never condescend to become a mere man!” yet never, ever ever reinforces or affirms any Christian’s comments.

And! These Muslims admonish the Christians by saying, “How dare you tell this sweet little old lady that she can’t profess her views! Doesn’t Christianity claim God is love??”

So, if you put yourself into this hypothetical scenario I think you’ll be able to understand a little bit of what’s going on here in “real life”.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I hope I pay close attention to Peters writings. I’m not sure about those who claim they are in his succession.

Oh, good. We’re in luck because Peter made a veiled reference to this as follows:

2 Peter 1:12-15
So I will always remind you of these things, even though you know them and are firmly established in the truth you now have. I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body, because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. And I will make every effort to see that after my departure you will always be able to remember these things.

What effort could Peter make to ensure his message would be remembered after his departure? Apostolic Succession. We know Peter did this from the writings of Irenaeus of Lyons (a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of John). Take a look:

“3The blessed Apostles [Peter and Paul], having founded and built up the Church [of Rome], they handed over the office of the episcopate to Linus. Paul makes mention of this Linus in the Epistle to Timothy. To him succeeded Anencletus; and after him, in the third place from the Apostles, Clement was chosen from the episcopate. He had seen the blessed Apostles and was acquainted with them. It might be said that He still heard the echoes of the preaching of the Apostles, and had their traditions before his eyes. And not only he, for there were many still remaining who had been instructed by the Apostles. In the time of Clement, no small dissension having arisen among the brethren in Corinth, the Church in Rome sent a very strong letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace and renewing their faith. To this Clement, Evaristus succeeded; and Alexander succeeded Evaristus. Then, sixth after the Apostles, Sixtus was appointed; after him, Telesphorus, who also was gloriously martyred. Then Hyginus; after him, Pius; and after him, Anicetus. Soter succeeded Anicetus, and now, in the twelfth place after the Apostles, the lot of the episcopate has fallen to Eleutherus. In this order, and by the teaching of the Apostles handed down in the Church, the preaching of the truth has come down to us.” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3.3.3, [A.D. 180])

 

[Janet1983]

Um…who brought it up?

I did not bring it up. I simply asked a question to someone who said that dogmas were there before the NT was written. As this is a thread about Maria I took the example of a Marian Dogma I can and will not believe, though I was very much inclined to do so a few years ago.
I just disagreed with the thesis that person came up with but I was open for correction concerning the dogma I named.

In Him,
Janet

 

[Dokimas]

Oh, good. We’re in luck because Peter made a veiled reference to this as follows:

2 Peter 1:12-15
****So I will always remind you of these things, even though you know them and are firmly established in the truth you now have. I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body, because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. And I will make every effort to see that after my departure you will always be able to remember these things. ****

---

What effort could Peter make to ensure his message would be remembered after his departure? Apostolic Succession. Take a look:

---

"3The blessed Apostles [Peter and Paul], having founded and built up the Church [of Rome], they handed over the office of the episcopate to Linus. Paul makes mention of this Linus in the Epistle to Timothy. To him succeeded Anencletus; and after him, in the third place from the Apostles, Clement was chosen from the episcopate. He had seen the blessed Apostles and was acquainted with them. It might be said that He still heard the echoes of the preaching of the Apostles, and had their traditions before his eyes. And not only he, for there were many still remaining who had been instructed by the Apostles. In the time of Clement, no small dissension having arisen among the brethren in Corinth, the Church in Rome sent a very strong letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace and renewing their faith. To this Clement, Evaristus succeeded; and Alexander succeeded Evaristus. Then, sixth after the Apostles, Sixtus was appointed; after him, Telesphorus, who also was gloriously martyred. Then Hyginus; after him, Pius; and after him, Anicetus. Soter succeeded Anicetus, and now, in the twelfth place after the Apostles, the lot of the episcopate has fallen to Eleutherus. In this order, and by the teaching of the Apostles handed down in the Church, the preaching of the truth has come down to us." (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3.3.3, [A.D. 180])

Sorry but it would appear you’re reading something not there. The Truth has authority all by Itself. It the Truth is passed down, the vessel is unimportant. Paul said he was nothing, the message of the Gospel - the Truth about Jesus - is everything.

 

[PRmerger]

Originally Posted by Randy Carson
But no, I never get tired of teaching non-Catholics the principle that not everything THEY believe about Christianity is found within the pages of scripture

.

• I’ve admitted that, ask PRmerger.

Yes, PRmerger confirms that her friend and brother in Christ has indeed humbly admitted, to his credit, that he has some extra-biblical theological beliefs. :tiphat:

(BTW, dear Dokimas, could you please use this function: at the end of a quote that you’re responding to, so that when I quote you, it shows up? It makes it quite difficult (ok, I have to use more keystrokes and cut and paste -wah! wah! wah! I’m whining like a baby!) to respond.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I did not bring it up. I simply asked a question to someone who said that dogmas were there before the NT was written. As this is a thread about Maria I took the example of a Marian Dogma I can and will not believe, though I was very much inclined to do so a few years ago.
I just disagreed with the thesis that person came up with but I was open for correction concerning the dogma I named.

In Him,
Janet

Oh, my bad.

I thought you brought it up and I quoted your post verbatim in which you called the Dogma of the Assumption into question precisely because you feel it is unsupported by scripture.

Well, I will be happy to discuss this with you in a currently active thread, “Mary as Immaculate Conception” in the Apologetics sub-forum. Perhaps we can work through the issues that caused you to turn back from a doctrine toward which the Holy Spirit was previously leading you.

See you there.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Sorry but it would appear you’re reading something not there.

Show me how.

 

[Dokimas]

It’s merely an analogy, Dokimas. I am not comparing Muslim theology and Christian theology. ** I would be more able to understand your analogy if I was it as apples with apples.**
I’m just giving you the situation so you can understand how we feel. Would you not admonish someone who claims to be a Christian yet says she doesn’t believe Jesus is Divine? Tweetymom understands Jesus is God.

Oh, and in my scenario, this Christian great-grandma gives the “high five!” and “amen!” comments to Muslims when they say anti-Christian sentiments or say, “Allah the most Merciful could never condescend to become a mere man!” yet never, ever ever reinforces or affirms any Christian’s comments. ** I have no knowledge of what you are saying, so I can’t comment further. I’d need much more info**.

And! These Muslims admonish the Christians by saying, “How dare you tell this sweet little old lady that she can’t profess her views! Doesn’t Christianity claim God is love??” ** Why should a muslim have to stick up for a Christian against the open attack by another Christian? Something wrong there, wouldn’t you agree?**

So, if you put yourself into this hypothetical scenario I think you’ll be able to understand a little bit of what’s going on here in “real life”.

 

[Dokimas]

Show me how.

What do you mean? How can I show you how you’ve read something into a verse that’s not there. Even you called it veiled, didn’t you?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Sure. Seems sound reasoning to me.​

HI ProdigalSon. If I haven’t wished you a personal HNY — Happy New Year, friend.

Happy New Year to you too

 

[PRmerger]

PRmerger asked: would you not admonish someone who claims to be a Christian yet says she doesn’t believe Jesus is Divine?
Dokimas;:

Tweetymom understands Jesus is God.

I know.

But, let’s just take this hypothetical situation and leave Tweety out of it.

IF you were on a Muslim forum and there was a professed Christian there and she said, “I don’t believe Jesus is Divine”, would it be ok for Christians on the forum to admonish and correct her?

 

[Dokimas]

PRmerger asked: would you not admonish someone who claims to be a Christian yet says she doesn’t believe Jesus is Divine?

But, let’s just take this hypothetical situation and leave Tweety out of it.

IF you were on a Muslim forum and there was a professed Christian there and she said, “I don’t believe Jesus is Divine”, would it be ok for Christians on the forum to admonish and correct her?** I would privately tell the person (does it have to be a her?) **all the verses I could that reveals Jesus is God.

 

[Randy_Carson]

What do you mean? How can I show you how you’ve read something into a verse that’s not there. Even you called it veiled, didn’t you?

Let me help.

Peter specifically states that he will make every effort to make sure that what he has taught will not be forgotten after he has gone. Isn’t that what successors do? Carry on the work of the one who proceeded them?

Any corporate president does this…the Vice President of the United States who succeeds a President does this…Billy Graham’s son Franklin does this?

What am I reading into the verse that Peter has not placed there himself?

 

[PRmerger]

Dokimas:
Fair enough.

What if this person (ok, he’s a great-grandpa in this scenario) ignores such PMs and continues to profess things like, “There are many gods! I am a Christian and I can and do believe this!” and “Amen! to the fact that God cannot be a man!”?

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

Ah! I finally get why you keep referring to this “burning at the stakes” thing.

Let me just make it clear what the Catholic position is: we don’t believe that the burnings at the stakes were guided by the Holy Spirit, either.

That is just :whacky:

Great! So if the leadership was not lead by the Spirit then how can you trust their resistance to the reforms that so many people tried to bring?. or even their version of history about the reformers? If a person is willing to torture and kill someone would character assassination be out of the question? If the Church has always demanded total agreement in order to remain a member of “The Church” and thus have salvation, that would be a powerful deterrent to people speaking up or even questioning doctrine in their own minds,

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

That, too, is simply :whacky:

The Magisterium does not teach error in the areas of faith and morals.

That is quite different from saying the CC is the right church because it has “never been wrong.”

the church saying they never teach error is similar to someone saying they never lie. Why should you believe either statement?

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

Do you know any Catholic Churches that “kick out catholics that don’t believe every catholic doctrine?”

You show a deficient knowledge of Catholic teaching.

All are welcome in our church.

No but Ive seen how someone on this forum is treated because they consider themselves Catholic but dont agree with every teaching.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Great! So if the leadership was not lead by the Spirit then how can you trust their resistance to the reforms that so many people tried to bring?. or even their version of history about the reformers? If a person is willing to torture and kill someone would character assassination be out of the question? If the Church has always demanded total agreement in order to remain a member of “The Church” and thus have salvation, that would be a powerful deterrent to people speaking up or even questioning doctrine in their own minds,

You do realize the reformers had people killed also?

 

[Teneas]

No but Ive seen how someone on this forum is treated because they consider themselves Catholic but dont agree with every teaching.

People that proclaim to be Catholic, should represent the Church’s true teachings. They should not establish their own beliefs as those of the Church itself. That is the issue with those that proclaim to be Catholic, yet do not speak truth about what is believed.

It’s no different than…say…a Baptist saying they are Baptist but don’t believe in the Trinity, or baptism.

Catholics should believe in everything the Church teaches us. There is no middle ground if they are representing our faith on a forum designed to debate/talk about what we believe.

They can however, have their own beliefs, but should -never- pass them off as official church doctrine.

 

[Teneas]

Agreed.