Why do non catholics dislike Mother Mary?

[Dokimas]

Fair enough.

What if this person (ok, he’s a great-grandpa in this scenario) ignores such PMs and continues to profess things like, “There are many gods! I am a Christian and I can and do believe this!” and “Amen! to the fact that God cannot be a man!”?

Teaching the truth on that board about God without being specific about grandpa’s mistakes would be appropriate. Teaching Truth gives light to error by it’s contrast.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

Do you think the NT Church was Catholic?

If not, when did the CC start?

Do you think they ever had any authority?

If there is no such gift as infallibility, how can you depend upon anything with regard to the faith? If God is not able to preserve His word through men, how can you trust that the bible is valid?

Can we separate the CC from the RCC. The CC started with Jesus and sprouted up all over the known world, the basic gospel has been the same but there have always been divisions, errors and disputes that lead to schisms, The RCC is apart of that church they think that you must agree with Roman authority or you are not apart of THE Church.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

You know, people who don’t agree with the Catholic Church tend to decry the injustices of sinful men, as if it condemns everyone that belongs to that Church. Yet they cannot offer ONE single sinless Church themselves, but they can find it in themselves to continue to ‘cast the first stone’. The whole argument is senseless. It’s like saying sinful men have beaten Christ’s Church.

The same people argue against the ‘authority’ of a Church, but to do so publically to people loyal to the authority of the Church being spoken against, puts the accuser in the position of assuming their own authority. Where does the Bible tell anyone that each person shall be an authority? Everytime a question like that is raised, we see but people were burned at the stake, or the inquisition! Do you forget the Puritans and the witch hunts, in this very country which is only a little over 200 years old itself? Do you think the reformers didn’t play a part of having people killed who didn’t agree with them?

 

[Dokimas]

Let me help.

Peter specifically states that he will make every effort to make sure that what he has taught will not be forgotten after he has gone. Isn’t that what successors do? Carry on the work of the one who proceeded them? ** Peter did what he could: remind them, remind them, remind them. It has nothing that I can see about setting up successors that in and of themselves has a ‘Peter’ given authority.**

Any corporate president does this…the Vice President of the United States who succeeds a President does this…Billy Graham’s son Franklin does this? ** The VP was elected by the populus, not appointed; I think Billy Graham and now his son are inspired and many have come to know Jesus as Savior.**

What am I reading into the verse that Peter has not placed there himself? ** Your church is the successors**

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

I pray the Hours. They all are directed to the Father. I also pray the Rosary it is also directed to the Father. I pray some Marian prayers they are also directed to the Father. Whether our prayers ask for intercession of a saint or not they are all directed to the Father. And as someone has already mentioned the Mass is all directed to the Father but for part of a very small prayer that is ‘and I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin, all the angels and saints, and you my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God.’ And that as well is directed to the Father.

So only a small portion of your prayers are not directed to the Father. thats helpful to know thank you.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Teaching the truth on that board about God without being specific about grandpa’s mistakes would be appropriate. Teaching Truth gives light to error by it’s contrast.

The problem is, when the teacher uses no documentation other than what they ‘believe’, it has to be questioned thoroughly.

Have you noticed some people change their religion, sometimes which seems to be no more than just another way to agitate people. Anyone can state they are affliated with any Church and they can change it as often as they please. It’s not always the truth…

 

[rev_kevin]

That’s because Peter didn’t start it - Jesus did. Here’s how:

Apostolic Succession Proved from Scripture and History

Many people deny that the modern Catholic Church is the one Church Jesus promised to build (cf. Mt. 16:18-19) claiming that the doctrine of Apostolic Succession is not found in the Bible. Is this argument valid?

Let’s begin by examining the evidence contained in scripture as well as the non-scriptural writings of the earliest Christians for evidence of Apostolic Succession. The Bible contains clear indications that the Apostle Paul taught Apostolic Succession to his disciples and fellow workers, Timothy, Titus and Clement. Here are the relevant passages:

2 Timothy 2:1-2
You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable men who will also be qualified to teach others.

In the passage above, there are four generations of believers contained in this one passage: 1. Paul himself, 2. Timothy, who was Paul’s disciple, 3. Those whom Timothy would disciple, and 4. Those to whom Timothy’s disciples would preach. Paul commanded Timothy to hand on the gospel to reliable men and further to ensure that those men would also hand on the gospel reliably.

Titus 1:5
The reason I left you in Crete was that you might straighten out what was left unfinished and appoint elders in every town, as I directed you.

In the passage above, we see that Paul was concerned with the appointing of capable leaders in the Cretan church. So in addition to his concern for the content of the message, he is concerned with the succession of the leadership, as well.

Philippians 4:3
Yes, and I ask you, loyal yokefellow, help these women who have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.

In the passage from Philippians, Paul mentions one of his fellow workers, Clement, who was ordained by the Apostle Peter and later became the fourth Bishop of Rome (after Peter, Linus, and Anacletus). Like Paul, who addressed to epistles to the Church of Corinth, Clement wrote his own letter to the Corinthians around 80 AD. In that letter, he stated:

“Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry” (*Letter to the Corinthians *42:4–5, 44:1–3 [A.D. 80]).

“We are of opinion, therefore, that those appointed by them, or afterwards by other eminent men, with the consent of the whole church, and who have blamelessly served the flock of Christ, in a humble, peaceable, and disinterested spirit, and have for a long time possessed the good opinion of all, cannot be justly dismissed from the ministry. (ibid.)

From these two passages, we can see that Clement had witnessed his mentors, the Apostles Peter and Paul, naming men to the office of Bishop and had received instructions from them that other men should succeed those Bishops appointed by the Apostles in the event that these first Bishops should die. Thus, history records that both the Apostles and their disciples such as Clement, Timothy and Titus understood and followed the practice of appointing successors to the Apostles in the Church.

While many seem to believe that anyone with a Bible may become a “pastor” by simply gathering around himself a group of fellow believers to form a church, the Bible itself teaches that true leaders in the Church of Jesus Christ must be ordained by those who were ordained before them. This process, known as Apostolic Succession, maintains an unbroken chain of continuity from Jesus, Peter and the Apostles to the leaders of the early Church.

(cont.)

What did Jesus call his church?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Can we separate the CC from the RCC. The CC started with Jesus and sprouted up all over the known world, the basic gospel has been the same but there have always been divisions, errors and disputes that lead to schisms, The RCC is apart of that church they think that you must agree with Roman authority or you are not apart of THE Church.

That’s just sad. Do you deny the Apostles travelled to Rome? At the time of Christ, Rome ruled the world, what better place for Christ’s Church to rule from? It proves Christ’s Church overcame it’s biggest opposition to Christianity!

Christ announced the building of His Church at Caesarea Philippi, named by Herod Philip, in honor of the ruling Caesar. This place was a place of pagan worship, once named Panion, the city of Pan in honor of the pagan God Pan. Christ chose a place that was keeping men from the kingdom of heaven to start His Church to lead people to heaven.

The power of God overcame those ruling places of flesh and spirit to bring people to His kingdom!

The stigma some people try to make because it’s in Rome is ridiculous.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

And that is precisely why there are so many protestant denominations. they are created by the RCC forcing people to leave.

 

[Dokimas]

The problem is, when the teacher uses no documentation other than what they ‘believe’, it has to be questioned thoroughly.

Have you noticed some people change their religion, sometimes which seems to be no more than just another way to agitate people. Anyone can state they are affliated with any Church and they can change it as often as they please. It’s not always the truth…

I think you’ve missed the conversation PRmerger and I am having. She gave me a hyperthetical which I tried to respond to.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

Can you tell me which doctrines were developed and made dogma by these people? It would help the conversation considerably.

Who developed the dogmas originally I cant tell you, but when those dogmas where challenged in light of Gods word one side tried to have a debate and the other side turned to violence. Salvation by Grace through faith is the most important doctrine. I was watching a video on church history today and it said there is a different idea of what is meant by “repent”. but I havent heard the Catholic defense of their definition of repent so I withhold comment.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

My judgement of you as hostile and rude are spot on.

You use inflammatory words to stir negative emotion and others have seen it and commented on it.

I must have missed “hostile and rude” , I was thinking of when you said I was full of hate. I hate no one, therefor you are wrong. I am not hostile, though I can understand how you misperceived me as hostile. so I will give you 1/2 credit on that one. Rude is a definite possibility. that could be because I am an uneducated hick who spent half my life drunk or high and have only spent the last 8 years in fellowship with loving Christian people. Add to that that I type very slowly so I abbreviate my posts and that can make them sound harsh.
So Hateful? NO Hostile? not really, Rude? probably:blush: So that gives you a 50/50 score. You could do that well flipping a coin. the reality is if you took the time to get to know me I think you would discover that I am a very loving person.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

And that is precisely why there are so many protestant denominations. they are created by the RCC forcing people to leave.

Evidently you haven’t studied the history of the Protestant reformation. Martin Luther left the Catholic Church and defended his actions by standing on his interpretation of scriptures, because it was the only interpretation that mattered.

It wasn’t long after his leaving the Catholic Church, Luther’s followers left him based on their own private interpretation of scriptures. People have been fragmenting Churches ever since. Now people choose Churches based on those that more closely fit their lifestyle, rather than try to fit their lifestyle to the Church.

 

[Dokimas]

I think you’ve missed the conversation PRmerger and I am having. She gave me a hyperthetical which I tried to respond to.

Such bad English; bet you’d never guess daughter #1 teaches 7th grade English.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

My judgement of you as hostile and rude are spot on.

You use inflammatory words to stir negative emotion and others have seen it and commented on it.

I forgot the more important part of your comment “You use inflammatory words to stir negative emotion and others have seen it and commented on it”
It may be true that my words have had the effect of being inflammatory, however you are not in a positions to judge my heart, motives, or intentions. Honestly Im not even sure what “infamitory words” you are talking about. I mentioned some brutality that was done to human beings, surly you would join me in condemning such things??

 

[Dokimas]

Evidently you haven’t studied the history of the Protestant reformation. Martin Luther left the Catholic Church and defended his actions by standing on his interpretation of scriptures, because it was the only interpretation that mattered.

It wasn’t long after his leaving the Catholic Church, Luther’s followers left him based on their own private interpretation of scriptures. People have been fragmenting Churches ever since. Now people choose Churches based on those that more closely fit their lifestyle, rather than try to fit their lifestyle to the Church.

Did Martin Luther leave the CC?

From Wikipedia:

Martin Luther (10 November 1483 – 18 February 1546) initiated the Protestant Reformation.[1] As a priest and theology professor, he confronted indulgence salesman Johann Tetzel with his The Ninety-Five Theses in 1517. Luther strongly disputed their claim that freedom from God’s punishment of sin could be purchased with money. His refusal to retract all of his writings at the demand of Pope Leo X in 1520 and the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V at the Edict of Worms meeting in 1521 resulted in his excommunication by the pope and condemnation as an outlaw by the emperor. Martin Luther taught that salvation is not from good works, but a free gift of God, received only by grace through faith in Jesus as redeemer from sin. His theology challenged the authority of the pope of the Roman Catholic Church by teaching that the Bible is the only source of divinely revealed knowledge[2] and opposed sacerdotalism by considering all baptised Christians to be a holy priesthood.[3] Those who identify with Luther’s teachings are called Lutherans.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I forgot the more important part of your comment “You use inflammatory words to stir negative emotion and others have seen it and commented on it”
It may be true that my words have had the effect of being inflammatory, however you are not in a positions to judge my heart, motives, or intentions. Honestly Im not even sure what “infamitory words” you are talking about. I mentioned some brutality that was done to human beings, surly you would join me in condemning such things??

Actually, you continue to bring up sinful men of the Church in which seems to be an effort to continue bashing the Catholic Church. It seems you judge everyone in the Catholic Church based on the sinful actions of a few. This is evident by you asking to be joined in condemning such things…

How many times must Catholics say there were sinful men in the Church’s history to satisfy you?

Since you’ve brought up ‘intentions’, please share with us what your intentions are on a Catholic forum?

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

I can join, become a member, of the church without being dunked, without the promise to be dunked?

I guess I would worry about your mental state if after being shown the clear scripture about baptism and profession of faith you still refused but yes you would be welcomed as a member trusting that you would come to believe it eventually. that is my answer. I will ask my paster on sunday I would call him but I dont want to disturb him just to ask a hypothetical question.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Did Martin Luther leave the CC?

From Wikipedia:

Martin Luther (10 November 1483 – 18 February 1546) initiated the Protestant Reformation.[1] As a priest and theology professor, he confronted indulgence salesman Johann Tetzel with his The Ninety-Five Theses in 1517. Luther strongly disputed their claim that freedom from God’s punishment of sin could be purchased with money. His refusal to retract all of his writings at the demand of Pope Leo X in 1520 and the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V at the Edict of Worms meeting in 1521 resulted in his excommunication by the pope and condemnation as an outlaw by the emperor. Martin Luther taught that salvation is not from good works, but a free gift of God, received only by grace through faith in Jesus as redeemer from sin. His theology challenged the authority of the pope of the Roman Catholic Church by teaching that the Bible is the only source of divinely revealed knowledge[2] and opposed sacerdotalism by considering all baptised Christians to be a holy priesthood.[3] Those who identify with Luther’s teachings are called Lutherans.

Martin Luther was given opportunities to avoid excommunications. It was his decisions that led to the excommunication.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

As I have admitted already and will do so again; I can be hostile. THe difference is that I am aggressive towards those who come in and make outrageous assertions. I do not enter into a thread with an attitude that I am going to teach you the truth. I only respond to that type of behavior.

Once again, you seem to be more interested in throwing stones than gaining understanding.

What" outrageous assertions" did I make that earned your wrath?