Why do non catholics dislike Mother Mary?

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What" outrageous assertions" did I make that earned your wrath?
This again was a direct response to someone else’s question. It was not directed at you.

I did point out earlier how your consistent use of the term “burning at the stake” is offensive and i asked you to please refrain from using it to describe Catholics. You have not yet done so. 🤷 It is very offensive and I tend to get a bit touchy when someone insinuate that I might support that type of behavior.
 
Indeed, MRL. That’s very Catholic of you to say that! 👍

But don’t forget all these other verses in Scripture that tell us what’s required for our salvation: (like Baptism, eating His Flesh and drinking His Blood)

We are saved…

By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)

By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)

By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)

By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)

By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)

By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)

By works (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24)

By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)

By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)

By his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)

By his Cross (Eph 2:16; Col 2:14)

By eating His flesh (John 6)
Well I better take that as a compliment I might not get many here: thumbsup: these are all interesting discussions. I hope we can have them on another thread in a spirit of grace.
 

There is not a concensous whether it was Peter or Paul who appointed the next pastor at Rome.​

I’m not sure the disciples got the replacement for Judas correctly. I believe Paul was God’s choice.
This is very concerning Dokimas. Earlier in the thread you stated that you believed that Jesus allows falsehood to be taught in His church and now even the apostles didn’t get it right. 🤷

It seems as though you have taken private interpretation to a whole new level. :eek:
 
Oh, good…an easy one!

The Infallibility of the Catholic Church Proved from Scripture

The following verses suggest that the Catholic Church is protected by God from ever teaching error in matters of faith and morals, and questions concerning each verse are provided as food for thought.

Matthew 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

Q: If Jesus promised to build his own church and that Church ever fell into doctrinal error, would this mean that a) Jesus was a liar, b) Jesus did not have the power to protect his own church, or c) Jesus was incompetent as a church builder?

Matthew 18:15-18
If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

Q: If the Church has the authority to bind and loose on earth in a manner that is also true in heaven, then assuming that there is no error in heaven, can the Church err on earth?

Matthew 28:20
And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

Q: If the Church fell into doctrinal error at any time during the nearly 1500 years before the Protestant Reformation, did Jesus remain with the Church “always”?

Luke 10:16
“He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

Q: If the Church speaks with such authority that those who hear the Church are actually hearing Christ and such that anyone who rejects the words of the Church are rejecting Christ Himself, can the Church ever be allowed to speak error on behalf of Jesus?

John 14:15-16
15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—

Q: If the Church fell into doctrinal error, would this indicate that Jesus did not give the Counselor or that the Counselor simply failed to remain with the Church “forever”?

John 14:18
18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

Q: If the Church ever fell into doctrinal error, did Jesus actually leave us as “orphans” during all that time?

John 14:26
26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

Q: Despite this promise, did the Holy Spirit fail to teach the Church “all things” or to remind the Church of the things that Jesus had said to the Apostles?

John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

Q: Did the Holy Spirit fail to guide the Church into all truth?

Now, consider the following three verses:

1 John 4:4
4You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.

1 Timothy 3:13
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Mark 3:27
27In fact, no one can enter a strong man’s house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can rob his house.

Q: Is Satan stronger than Jesus, is the Church the household of God, and can Satan rob the Church of the deposit of truth by “binding” Jesus in any way?

In light of the above, is it possible that the Church fell into doctrinal error? Taken individually, each of these verses creates a problem for those that assert that the Church “went off the rails” at some point in history. Taken as a whole, they portray Christ’s own involvement in building, nurturing and protecting His Church until the end of time. The Catholic Church remains strong and vibrant – not by her own efforts or innate qualities – but because God Himself is leading and guiding her to ensure that “the gates of hell will not overcome it.”
Yes it is, none of the verses given say that the church of Christ will never be in error. The 7 churches in Revelation had errors and were admonished to clean up their acts. What you are doing is drawing an inference from these verses. that might be ok for something a little less critical that Roman Supremacy.
 
You say that scripture can lead you to any understanding that" we choose". But is that what you want? or do you want it to speak to you as it was intended? If you just read it and let it speak to you without someone telling you what they want it to say, you come to a different conclusions. It is understandable that you can little afford to do that as I am sure you have many wonderful people in your life who are RCC and you might fear being rejected if you deviate from standard teachings. the 2000 years you speak of did not have all the church bodies in agreement about everything and because only the church leaders had the scriptures the rest of the population had to trust them for the truth. When more people were able to read the Bible for themselves they started to question the teachings and the condition of the church. I havent read the details yet but didn’t Saint Francis question the condition of the church? When you claim the practices dont contradict scripture arent you forgetting your first point?
I think the only way we can understand the scriptures as they were intended is through proper interpretation. Since we can get a group of 10 Christians from differing denominations that all read the same verses and come to different conclusions regarding the interpretation it is clear that God did not leave it to the individual. He gave us His Church.

Since you do not know me at all I would suggest you refrain from commenting on who my friends are or aren’t. Just so you know; I am a recent revert to Catholicism after 20 years in a protestant church, several of which were as a pastor. I currently have no Catholic friends and as such am not concerned about loosing any of them if I question the CHurch. 🤷

THere is always debate and discussion within the Church, this is how the Holy Spirit form consciences. THe fact is, however, that the Church has been unified in teaching and doctrine since it’s inception.
 
Yes it is, none of the verses given say that the church of Christ will never be in error. The 7 churches in Revelation had errors and were admonished to clean up their acts. What you are doing is drawing an inference from these verses. that might be ok for something a little less critical that Roman Supremacy.
The errors were in their behavior, not their doctrine. You need to understand what the Church really teaches.
 
100% of Catholic prayers are directed to God!

Any prayers to Mary or the saints are the same as asking you to pray for me. Thus, if you wish to claim that praying to Mary or the saints are taking time away from prayer to God, then **you must also claim **that [SIGN1]any time you are talking to another Christian you’re taking time away from prayer to God. [/SIGN1]
Im going to try to ex plane this again. My original thinking was as you say, but as I thought about it I came to the conclusion that a catholic may spend some time praying to Mary and still have more time praying to the Father than I do personally. My comment was not critical of Catholics at all but rather an attempt have some understanding and to say my thinking on the subject had evolved to a more favorable positions. I wouldn’t go so far as to say I agree with the practice I am saying I find it less problematic.
 
Im going to try to ex plane this again. My original thinking was as you say, but as I thought about it I came to the conclusion that a catholic may spend some time praying to Mary and still have more time praying to the Father than I do personally. My comment was not critical of Catholics at all but rather an attempt have some understanding and to say my thinking on the subject had evolved to a more favorable positions. I wouldn’t go so far as to say I agree with the practice I am saying I find it less problematic.
I get what you were saying MRL.

I just take issue with your putting “praying to Mary” on the same plane as “praying to God.” Even if you say we spend more time praying to the Father.

You should put “praying to Mary” on the same plane as “talking to your Christian friends.”

If you don’t see your time talking with your Christian friends as time spent away from praying to God, you ought not see time we spend talking to Mary as time spent away from praying to God.

That’s all I’m saying.
 
thats great we’ll take them:thumbsup:
Fair enough.

But then, given their history, they’re going to walk away from your church, too, once they realize your pastor is teaching something they personally feel is contrary to Scripture. 🤷
 
You should put “praying to Mary” on the same plane as “talking to your Christian friends.”
I do not see it at all like that. Not even close! 🙂 But I guess you are just trying to make it easier for MRL to understand. 👍
 
You say that scripture can lead you to any understanding that" we choose". But is that what you want? or do you want it to speak to you as it was intended? If you just read it and let it speak to you without someone telling you what they want it to say, you come to a different conclusions. It is understandable that you can little afford to do that as I am sure you have many wonderful people in your life who are RCC and you might fear being rejected if you deviate from standard teachings. the 2000 years you speak of did not have all the church bodies in agreement about everything and because only the church leaders had the scriptures the rest of the population had to trust them for the truth. When more people were able to read the Bible for themselves they started to question the teachings and the condition of the church. I havent read the details yet but didn’t Saint Francis question the condition of the church? When you claim the practices dont contradict scripture arent you forgetting your first point?
I gotta say that Catholics don’t, for the most part and only in extreme circumstances, resort to rejecting other Catholics. This forum isn’t just for Catholics however, as we can all plainly see. This is a good thing of course forums I mean. Scripture is surely meant to be read by all, I think we can all agree upon this. That being said, it is meant to be read by all, but taking into account fully the Church that put it together At least the NT.

It’s like someone writing a book, and years later another person comes up to them and proclaims what the book they wrote is all about. That would be silly wouldn’t it?

Saint Francis, and others have questioned the condition of the Church in days past. Luckily, they were more patient, and not as rash as the “other reformers”. So, through their patience, teaching, praying, and talking, they were able to reform the Church from within.
 
Kevin, the canon of Scripture was not determined until 400 years after Christ’s death and resurrection. 400 years.

That’s like from the time the Pilgrims arrived until present day. No Bible.

Can you imagine?

So, 400 years later there was a period of time in which fallible men made an infallible pronouncement!
The books were widly used in all the churches in various collections I believe it was Constantine that ordered that a complete set of books be made for all the churches. Im only going from memory but wasnt it Jerome who compiled the list? he wasn’t a pope, right?
 
Okay, you are correct, the four original gospels were already out there, however so were many many other “gospels” to. However, they were not considered canon. None were, besides the OT. It wasn’t until close to 400 years after Christ’s birth that the NT was canonized. But your statement that those gospels were already out there is correct. They just weren’t canon.
true but the four were the only ones with hundreds of copies and used by churches everywhere.
 
Janet-

Please show the scripture which contains the word “trinity”.

In the absence of that, can you tell us when the Church hammered out all of the ideas contained within the doctrine of the Trinity? Specifically, when was the Holy Spirit understood to be a separate person consubstantial and co-equal with the Father and the Son? Finally, when was the Holy Spirit determined to proceed from both the Father and the Son?

Is that in the NT? Or were some doctrines ironed out loooooooong after the close of the Apostolic era?

And if that is true of a doctrine that you do accept, why can it not be true of a doctrine that you do not accept like the Assumption of Mary?
Ive got to agree with my catholic brother on this one. He is correct.
 
The books were widly used in all the churches in various collections I believe it was Constantine that ordered that a complete set of books be made for all the churches. Im only going from memory but wasnt it Jerome who compiled the list? he wasn’t a pope, right?
No, Jerome did not compile the list.

History tells us that it was Pope Damasus who commanded that the books known to be inspired by the Holy Spirit be gathered together into one codex and translated. Source: Jmcrae forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5827566&postcount=919

It was the Catholic Bishops of the Councils of Rome, Carthage and Hippo who discerned which books those were.

At the Council of Rome in 382, the Church decided upon a canon of 46 Old Testament books and 27 in the New Testament. This decision was ratified by the councils at Hippo
(393), Carthage (397, 419), II Nicea (787), Florence (1442), and Trent (1546) Source: Jmcrae catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0009sbs.asp
 
PRmerger asked: would you not admonish someone who claims to be a Christian yet says she doesn’t believe Jesus is Divine?

I know.

But, let’s just take this hypothetical situation and leave Tweety out of it.

IF you were on a Muslim forum and there was a professed Christian there and she said, “I don’t believe Jesus is Divine”, would it be ok for Christians on the forum to admonish and correct her?
Yes, because the Deity of Christ can be conclusively demonstrated.
 
true but the four were the only ones with hundreds of copies and used by churches everywhere.
So you only read the four gospels that were already out there in wide circulation then? You discard the others as fallible ones?
 
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