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Bill_Pick
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when the Bible say they do, Do we just read what we think we need to know
Why do non-Catholics keep saying dead people who are in heaven cannot hear our prayers?
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sambos671
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Quote your verses you’ll get better response. Support your statement.
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yellowbird
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Many people pray silently so it would mean that people in heaven can actually read our hearts and mind, which is something it would seem only God would have the ability to do?
Not arguing against it - I accept what the Church teaches… I’m just saying…
Not arguing against it - I accept what the Church teaches… I’m just saying…
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adolfo123
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They think is just mens traditions about this … and are blind of passage like in Hebrew that say we do come to them in a spiritual sense…
Heb 12:22 But what you have come to is Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem where the millions of angels have gathered for the festival,
Heb 12:23 with the whole Church of first-born sons, enrolled as citizens of heaven. You have come to God himself, the supreme Judge, and to the spirits of the upright who have been made perfect;
Heb 12:24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to purifying blood which pleads more insistently than Abel’s.
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Bill_Pick
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Jesus himself spoke with both Moses and Elijah even though Moses was dead and buried for over a thousand years and Elijah was taken up into heaven (for you “Left Behind” fans: he was “raptured”) nearly a thousand years before Jesus was born. Jesus is our very example of Christian living and here we have Jesus takking with a so-called “dead saint” while we read in the Scriptures:
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Bill_Pick
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JN 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
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sambos671
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Bad instance because that was a special case of the transfiguration. Elijah and Moses “came down”. Jesus is the resurection and the life but it doesn’t say people in heaven hear us or our prayers which is what I think you’re aluding to. Do you have better scripture verses to make your point?
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sambos671
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Yes. I don’t believe you can be a christian and not believe it.
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mmmcounts
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I would say it doesn’t really matter so much whether they can hear or not- what do you expect them to do? Whether dead people can hear me or not, I don’t expect them to do anything.
First, if a person is dead and living eternally with God, why not just ask God to do something for you? He’s right there anyway. Why bypass the God of the universe and ask for something from a dead person when God’s right there?
Second, if a dead person were to do something for you, it would only happen if God gave the OK, and the dead person wouldn’t be able to do anything apart from God giving him/her the ability. Why not just ask God to do it? Asking the dead person to do it involves just as much oversight and involvement by God anyway. Cut out the middleman.
Third, when you die, and assuming you can hear prayers to you (is it a little weird to think about people praying to you?), exactly what do you plan on doing in response to those prayers? Surely you wouldn’t do anything without consulting with God, right? I said this already, but I’ll say it again- He’s right there. Of course you’d run things by Him. And if you were going to do anything, it would only be through God’s power, not of yourself. Either way, God would be responsible for whatever you do. And I’m still curious about what sorts of things you imagine yourself doing.
Is there any precedent for prayers to dead people that God answers by using a dead person to do something? In the Bible, I mean. Obviously. What sorts of things do you think God would use a dead person for?
First, if a person is dead and living eternally with God, why not just ask God to do something for you? He’s right there anyway. Why bypass the God of the universe and ask for something from a dead person when God’s right there?
Second, if a dead person were to do something for you, it would only happen if God gave the OK, and the dead person wouldn’t be able to do anything apart from God giving him/her the ability. Why not just ask God to do it? Asking the dead person to do it involves just as much oversight and involvement by God anyway. Cut out the middleman.
Third, when you die, and assuming you can hear prayers to you (is it a little weird to think about people praying to you?), exactly what do you plan on doing in response to those prayers? Surely you wouldn’t do anything without consulting with God, right? I said this already, but I’ll say it again- He’s right there. Of course you’d run things by Him. And if you were going to do anything, it would only be through God’s power, not of yourself. Either way, God would be responsible for whatever you do. And I’m still curious about what sorts of things you imagine yourself doing.
Is there any precedent for prayers to dead people that God answers by using a dead person to do something? In the Bible, I mean. Obviously. What sorts of things do you think God would use a dead person for?
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NDfan
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So please tell me how this supports anyone in Heaven as being able to hear our prayers.
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NDfan
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But Bill this was during the transfiguration of Christ in which Moses and Elijah appeared. Jesus was speaking with them but there’s no support that Jesus prayed for them to appear and they did.
Let me ask you this. After Christ was resurrected from the dead the early church underwent persecution. James and Stephen were killed in the book of Acts. We read of the Apostles praying all the time especially Peter. Why do we not see any examples of them asking for intercessory prayer from Stephen or James or any other persecuted Christian?
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TommyWommy
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With that logic, why should I ask friends or family to pray for me? Why not just “cut out the middle man” since God hears me anyway? Because Scripture tells us to pray for one another, that’s why. These so-called “dead” people aren’t dead, either. They are alive in Christ! The fact that they are closer to God makes them perfect people to ask to pray.
The whole “God and me” approach is theologically incomplete (and kinda selfish) because it leaves out the communal nature of the Church. The Church is a body of believers (including those who are already in Heaven), not just a bunch of separate individuals doing their own individual things with God. Those “dead” people love you and want to pray with you and for you. Even more perfectly than people alive on earth, since they are no longer inhibited by worldly distractions. All you have to do is ask them.
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TommyWommy
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'Cause not everything got written down in the Bible.
(Catholic = no Sola Scriptura)
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sambos671
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Ah but the question was directed to non-catholics who are sola scriptura. If the bible shows people in heaven listening to prayers etc… then the non catholic may have to review their position.'Cause not everything got written down in the Bible.
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YADA
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Revelation [note this is before the final end times]
Chapter 5
Chapter 6
Chapter 8
And to the poster who discounts the Transfiguation … from where did Moses and Elijah come down? From heaven … where they reside … they are seen, recognized and acknowledged for their service to God … Enoch walked all his days with the Lord and was also taken up [without suffering death] …
We also have the Lazarus and the Rich Man. Abraham is recognized and communicates across the chasm between those who live in Gods love and those who are condemned … and even the Rich Man desires a better outcome for his brothers [cencern for those not yet dead to the earthly life] …
Jesus is the God of the living and not the dead … In Him we have life everlasting even though we pass from this earth …
Chapter 5
That is hearing every creature on earth … crying out - John hears this so does every angel, Christ, elder … everything in the universe is crying out …
Chapter 6
Here we have people IN HEAVEN who cry out for vindication [earthly concerns] these are those who have been baptized [white robes] … they receive an answer and tod that their numbers will increase … that ***their fellow servants and brothers ***- that implies a connection to those still here on earth with those who are in heaven …
Chapter 8
Our prayers raise like incense … the prayers of the Holy Ones in heaven raise like incense and come before the Lord …
And to the poster who discounts the Transfiguation … from where did Moses and Elijah come down? From heaven … where they reside … they are seen, recognized and acknowledged for their service to God … Enoch walked all his days with the Lord and was also taken up [without suffering death] …
We also have the Lazarus and the Rich Man. Abraham is recognized and communicates across the chasm between those who live in Gods love and those who are condemned … and even the Rich Man desires a better outcome for his brothers [cencern for those not yet dead to the earthly life] …
Jesus is the God of the living and not the dead … In Him we have life everlasting even though we pass from this earth …
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The_GreyPilgrim
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Rev 6:[9] When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne;
[10] they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?”
Rev 8:[3] And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne;
[4] and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.
Two things:
One, the saints in heaven still communicate with each other and God.
Two, they have an active knowledge of events on earth.
Protestants that I know have a healthy, albeit misplaced, fear that God is offended when we ask others, most notably the saints, for aid.
To my Protestant brothers and sisters reading this:
God will not have any more or any less glory than He does right now. That which is infinite cannot be increased or decreased. Those who have died in Christ are more alive than we are! They are His body triumphant!
If I ask Paul to pray to God to help me understand the scriptures, God is glorified!
If I ask Peter to pray to God that He make make me humble like Peter, God is glorified!
If I ask my ever Blessed Mother Mary to pray to her Son that my sins may be forgiven, God is glorified!
If one of these saints works a miracle in anyone do to my prayer to them, God is glorified!
I ask my Protestant brothers and sisters to pray on this and realize that when we pray for each other, living here on earth or in heaven, that we are in Christ. And that in living a life of love for all those in Christ, in heaven and on earth, God is glorified. There is nothing to fear.
[10] they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?”
Rev 8:[3] And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne;
[4] and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.
Two things:
One, the saints in heaven still communicate with each other and God.
Two, they have an active knowledge of events on earth.
Protestants that I know have a healthy, albeit misplaced, fear that God is offended when we ask others, most notably the saints, for aid.
To my Protestant brothers and sisters reading this:
God will not have any more or any less glory than He does right now. That which is infinite cannot be increased or decreased. Those who have died in Christ are more alive than we are! They are His body triumphant!
If I ask Paul to pray to God to help me understand the scriptures, God is glorified!
If I ask Peter to pray to God that He make make me humble like Peter, God is glorified!
If I ask my ever Blessed Mother Mary to pray to her Son that my sins may be forgiven, God is glorified!
If one of these saints works a miracle in anyone do to my prayer to them, God is glorified!
I ask my Protestant brothers and sisters to pray on this and realize that when we pray for each other, living here on earth or in heaven, that we are in Christ. And that in living a life of love for all those in Christ, in heaven and on earth, God is glorified. There is nothing to fear.
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sambos671
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I am that poster to which you refer. I didn’t deny the transfiguration. My indication is nothing about the story shows that People in heaven are listening to our prayers. That was a special event where the Prophets “came down” and spoke with Jesus. Not that they were “hanging” by the throne listening to Peter’s prayers. As for your verses the 1st one quoted reflects the end times and judgement. The 2nd one is your best argument with the martyrs. Lazarus and the rich man is viewed as a parable.
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YADA
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Actually that is before the final judgement … John is 'taken" up to the divine liturgy … while Revelation is apocolyptic it is not how we would understand “prophecy” today - foretellingof future specific events [aka Nostradamus] … it was to strreghten and comfort a persecuted people …
that said … clearly the saints number is not yet reached [before the final end of earthly times] … just as clearly they are there already in heaven, they communicate about and recieve information aout earthly things and peoples … they also engage in prayer …
That is the problem with equating all of revelation with the end times [aka the Late Great Planet Earth and the Left Behind Series], it keeps from from looking that the message …
Read Revelation in light of the Mass … we have both the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist … we have the Communion of Saints and the Triumph of the Cross … just as Jesus rose again from the Passion and Death … the persecuted people of God will survive … and in the mean time every time Mass is celebrated here on earth the veil between the Heavenly perfection of worship is opened, we are fed by the One who is both the High Priest and Sacraficial Lamb [Ones as though Slain] … when we are persucuted in His Name, even unto death, we shall live with Him and ultimately God is in control and in Jesus we are saved …
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Bill_Pick
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As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.
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sambos671
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I have no problem with your view of Apocalyptic literature. Quite right. I’m just arguing what a protestant would say with regard to your verses to whom the question is intended. There are more indications of this type of interaction in the Apocrypha or Deuterocanonical Books.
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