Why do non-Catholics keep saying dead people who are in heaven cannot hear our prayers?

[YADA]

As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

 

[YADA]

I have no problem with your view of Apocalyptic literature. Quite right. I’m just arguing what a protestant would say with regard to your verses to whom the question is intended. There are more indications of this type of interaction in the Apocrypha or Deuterocanonical Books.

I do know of the references to intercessory prayers in the Duetero-Canonicals … many Protestants refuse to consider them at all and some have never read them or accept them even as Apocrypha - in fact there are some I have met who believe that Apocryphal means ‘from Satan’ …so they would not even read one word from them, let alone look at the theology contained …

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

when the Bible say they do, Do we just read what we think we need to know

One answer is, that just as Catholics have their opinions on the subject, so do others. The fact is that everyone reads the Bible selectively - Catholics as much as Protestants. The NT is crystal clear on the wrongness of oaths - but very few Christian bodies take the prohibitions of swearing to heart; what Jesus & James say is as clear as it could well be, but it is ignored. Catholics don’t pay any attention to these passages - they have strategies for avoiding & relativising them. And that is exactly what other Christians do with passages that are awkward for their doctrinal self-understanding. FWIW, there is no reason at all why the Christian movement had to have holy books - it is entirely conceivable that the OT could have been treated as made redundant by the fact of Jesus, & that what Christians venerate as the NT could have been treated as valuable but not as inspired.​

A Christianity which denounced the veneration of the OT as Judaising & unChristian, & rejected the veneration of the NT as inspired as being a blasphemous attempt to obscure the Deity of Christ, is perfectly imaginable, even though that’s not what happened. Having a Bible could very easily have become a proof of heretical intention - after all, “real Christians” (the argument might have run) don’t need a dead book full of irrelevant details about the Jewish past, but a living Christ. To rely on a book of Jewish fables is to imply that Christ is not enough; it is an implicit rejection of the Christian faith, & as such, it is a very grave sin. Catholics might even have been denounced by Protestants for the blasphemy & unbelief shown by having a Bible, in contrast to a total rejection of the Bible in favour of a completely unmedited approach to God; that too was not impossible. The “left wing” of the Reformation did criticise the “magisterial” wing of the Reformation for retaining the Bible, & substituting a dead book for the Living Spirit.

 

[PJM]

when the Bible say they do, Do we just read what we think we need to know

Dear Brother Bill,

You ask a very profound question.:tiphat:

This issue has confounded me for a long time, even though I am able to understand how and why it happens.

It’s :whacky: confusing at best to see folks that belive that “everything is in the bible,” and then turn right around and with Selective verses,Selective understanding,and or Selective books within the bible chose to ignore what “the Good Book” actually and fully say’s:banghead: A great many refuse to read and learn the entire bible, chosing instead, to maintain their comfort zone with just “this” and just “that” verse.

Even more :hypno:is that when we share actual bible quotes with them, that contridict what they are saying, they often just ignore it like it dosen’t matter.

Why do they do thisCould it be because it’s just sooooo darn EASY!

It has to do with Grace being available to Catholics through the Seven Sacraments that Jesus instituted, that are not available elsewhere, and our willingness to accept the Word of God, as God’s actual Words (Teaching).It has a great deal to do with accepting ALL OF GOD"S WORD, the complete bible, not just the parts we are comfortable with.:extrahappy:

Can they be helped? Only of They cooperate with God, and accept everything He teaches as necessary for our salvation.

Dear God help us all!

 

[Bill_Pick]

Dear Brother Bill,

You ask a very profound question.:tiphat:

This issue has confounded me for a long time, even though I am able to understand how and why it happens.

It’s :whacky: confusing at best to see folks that belive that “everything is in the bible,” and then turn right around and with Selective verses,Selective understanding,and or Selective books within the bible chose to ignore what “the Good Book” actually and fully say’s:banghead: A great many refuse to read and learn the entire bible, chosing instead, to maintain their comfort zone with just “this” and just “that” verse.

Even more :hypno:is that when we share actual bible quotes with them, that contridict what they are saying, they often just ignore it like it dosen’t matter.

Why do they do thisCould it be because it’s just sooooo darn EASY!

It has to do with Grace being available to Catholics through the Seven Sacraments that Jesus instituted, that are not available elsewhere, and our willingness to accept the Word of God, as God’s actual Words (Teaching).It has a great deal to do with accepting ALL OF GOD"S WORD, the complete bible, not just the parts we are comfortable with.:extrahappy:

Can they be helped? Only of They cooperate with God, and accept everything He teaches as necessary for our salvation.

Dear God help us all!

PJM I think all you said is right on the money and I think it has to do with the false teaching of sola scriptura and private interpretation which is against the bible and they Bible is short,just about 7 books. they read the Bible and say all the book of the are inspired and they are but if we as Cathloic had not told them they still did not know, well the CC has been around for 2000 years and they 500 so lets give them a break and keep praying for them, well have a good weekend and may Our Lord bless you.

 

[graceandglory]

when the Bible say they do, Do we just read what we think we need to know

Honestlly, I don’t really think they have much sense of the spiritual realm that the Bible says is really all around us.

---

Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses*, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us
Hebrews 12:1

And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel.
Rev. 8:4**

I remember when I was protestant for about ten years that it had been a long time since I heard anything about angels, so I had to go to a bookstore to search them out. I could find only one old book by Billy Graham, that said, yes, there really are angels.

 

[JonNC]

when the Bible say they do, Do we just read what we think we need to know

Lutherans believe that those in heaven - The Church Triumphant - do indeed pray for the Church Militant, in a general sense… While I’m not convinced that they can hear our individual prayers, I am not inclined to reject the practice as it clearly dates back to the early centuries after the Apostolic era. My instinct tells me that a practice within the early and pre-schism Church must have something to it.
For me, therefore, there are 2 questions:

1. Is belief in intercession by the dead necessary for salvation, an article of faith.
2. As the CC does not require members to practice intercession, is the belief necessarily church dividing?

Jon

 

[Bill_Pick]

Honestlly, I don’t really think they have much sense of the spiritual realm that the Bible says is really all around us.

---

Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses***, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us
Hebrews 12:1

And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel.
Rev. 8:4

I remember when I was protestant for about ten years that it had been a long time since I heard anything about angels, so I had to go to a bookstore to search them out. I could find only one old book by Billy Graham, that said, yes, there really are angels.

Billy Graham may be the best preacher that lived( and yes I,m end NC

 

[Knowtheledge]

The Bible does say to ask other believers to pray for us, but it never says to ask those in heaven to pray for us. I can’t think of anywhere in the Bible that can support that. I know that doesn’t prove anything, since Catholics aren’t sola scriptura, but you were asking what Protestants think, so there you go.

Here are some example verses:

One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God. Luke 6:12

It says Jesus prayed to God, not to anyone else.

One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he finished, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples.”
He said to them, "When you pray, say:
" 'Father,
hallowed be your name, Luke 11:1-2

Jesus taught us to pray to our heavenly Father, he makes no mention of praying to anyone else.

But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Matthew 6:6

Once again, Jesus teaches us to only pray to our Father.

 

[fishisgood]

The Bible does say to ask other believers to pray for us, but it never says to ask those in heaven to pray for us. I can’t think of anywhere in the Bible that can support that. I know that doesn’t prove anything, since Catholics aren’t sola scriptura, but you were asking what Protestants think, so there you go.

Here are some example verses:

It says Jesus prayed to God, not to anyone else.

Jesus taught us to pray to our heavenly Father, he makes no mention of praying to anyone else.

Once again, Jesus teaches us to only pray to our Father.

None of those passeges say "do not pray to others… further more what say you to the quotes above mentioned from Revelation???

 

[Knowtheledge]

I know it doesn’t say *do not *pray to others, but the Bible doesn’t say to pray to them either. I don’t really have that big of a problem with Catholics praying to dead saints, I was just trying to explain why I don’t. As to the Revelation verses,

Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God from the angel’s hand.Revelation 8:3-4

I don’t see how that says we can pray to dead people. To me, the angel was just offering the prayers to God.

And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. Revelation 5:8

I really don’t see how that says we should either. Maybe you can explain to me how it does.

 

[Doolin]

I posted another thread that deals with praying directly to Jesus.
While there is lot of reluctance to ask saints in heaven to pray for us. There is very little evidence of the Apostles praying directly to Jesus. In fact one person in this forum suggests that we only pray to the Father. Do they really believe the bible teaches that we only pray to the Father?
There seems to be a lot of contradiction with this issue.

Many Blessings.
Doolin

 

[YADA]

I know it doesn’t say *do not *pray to others, but the Bible doesn’t say to pray to them either. I don’t really have that big of a problem with Catholics praying to dead saints, I was just trying to explain why I don’t. As to the Revelation verses,

I don’t see how that says we can pray to dead people. To me, the angel was just offering the prayers to God.

I really don’t see how that says we should either. Maybe you can explain to me how it does.

I am glad you do not have problems with Catholics praying to Saints …

Let me say this clearly … Catholics do not pray to “DEAD” Saints … Jesus is the God of the Living not the dead … Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life… and all who believe in Him shall not persish but have EVERLASTING LIFE … [we die to this earthly life but we rise to new life … ]

We are members of th Communion of Saints … all saints, past and present [and even and future but it is hard to ask a future person to pray for you ]

Scripture clearly states that even those who ‘die’ in Christ are not dead but alive …Please read back through the posts the scriptures have been quoted …

 

[Bookworm88]

Let me say this clearly … Catholics do not pray to “DEAD” Saints … Jesus is the God of the Living not the dead … Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life… and all who believe in Him shall not persish but have EVERLASTING LIFE … **we die to this earthly life **but we rise to new life … ]

Wait a minute. Did you really say that saints “die to this earthly life”? Are you saying that they really ARE dead to this earthly life? What is so hard then to understand when us Protestants say that you guys pray to dead saints. What we mean is that they have died to this earthly life, as you yourself admit that they do.

 

[Knowtheledge]

I am glad you do not have problems with Catholics praying to Saints …

Let me say this clearly … Catholics do not pray to “DEAD” Saints … Jesus is the God of the Living not the dead … Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life… and all who believe in Him shall not persish but have EVERLASTING LIFE … [we die to this earthly life but we rise to new life … ]

That is true.

We are members of th Communion of Saints … all saints, past and present [and even and future but it is hard to ask a future person to pray for you ]

That made me laugh. It would be hard, wouldn’t it?

Scripture clearly states that even those who ‘die’ in Christ are not dead but alive …Please read back through the posts the scriptures have been quoted …

I do agree with you that all Christians are living. But what scriptures are you talking about?

 

[Knowtheledge]

I posted another thread that deals with praying directly to Jesus.
While there is lot of reluctance to ask saints in heaven to pray for us. There is very little evidence of the Apostles praying directly to Jesus. In fact one person in this forum suggests that we only pray to the Father. Do they really believe the bible teaches that we only pray to the Father?
There seems to be a lot of contradiction with this issue.

Many Blessings.
Doolin

Actually, I do usually only pray to the Father. I just do because Jesus said to pray to the Father. Now, obviously, it could be argued that Jesus was a man when he said that, so the disciples didn’t need to pray to him; they could just go find him and talk to him.
But I don’t really think it is wrong to pray to Jesus, since he is God also. And the verse that has been mentioned,

While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” Acts 7:59

is obviously a prayer to Jesus. But that seems to be the only one.
Here are other verses of Paul praying:

For this reason I kneel before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name. Ephesians 3:14-15

He says it like it’s obvious that in prayer he addresses the Father.

We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, Colossians 1:3

Again, Paul makes it sound like every time he prays, it is to the Father. But I am sure not an expert on this, and it is pretty late here, so I’ll have to get up tomorrow and check this to see if what I said made sense.

 

[josephjames]

My experience from the dead people is from my own father to whom i asked for help in a very difficult time was granted . It all depends on faith. Jesus has said if we have faith as small as a mustered seed we could move mountains . The main thing is accept everyone as they are and allow the Holy spirit to guide us with humility. Dead people are living in our daily lives we follow their lives .We do not argue about what non catholics say about the dead but ask ourselves what we have to say about the dead . Death is definitely going to come to everyone . All we have to do is to live every moment of our lives thanking God and seeing the beauty of creation .This moment is precious. Thank you Lord.
Deacon Joseph

 

[PJM]

=JonNC;4938736]Lutherans believe that those in heaven - The Church Triumphant - do indeed pray for the Church Militant, in a general sense… While I’m not convinced that they can hear our individual prayers, I am not inclined to reject the practice as it clearly dates back to the early centuries after the Apostolic era. My instinct tells me that a practice within the early and pre-schism Church must have something to it.

One can see a reference in 2 Mac. chapter 12

For me, therefore, there are 2 questions:

1. Is belief in intercession by the dead necessary for salvation, an article of faith.

Not doing it is not going to send one to hell. Is it an article of our faith? Yes it is.

1. As the CC does not require members to practice intercession, is the belief necessarily church dividing?

No, it is not,necessiarly dividing but it is deviding nevertheless.

This belief and practice dates back to “BC” times, and conforms fully to the Love, Mercy and Justice of God’s Nature.

Love and prayers,

 

[scooter469]

I was told by a non catholic that the reason is because they are not concerned anylonger which is on earth, for they are focused on Praising God…

 

[JonNC]

=PJM;4940032]One can see a reference in 2 Mac. chapter 12

Thanks.

Not doing it is not going to send one to hell. Is it an article of our faith? Yes it is.

So, must one actually believe in intercession of the dead?

This belief and practice dates back to “BC” times, and conforms fully to the Love, Mercy and Justice of God’s Nature.

Precisely why I’m unwilling to reject the practice.
Jon