Why do non-Catholics keep saying dead people who are in heaven cannot hear our prayers?

[Bill_Pick]

I know it doesn’t say *do not *pray to others, but the Bible doesn’t say to pray to them either. I don’t really have that big of a problem with Catholics praying to dead saints, I was just trying to explain why I don’t. As to the Revelation verses,

I don’t see how that says we can pray to dead people. To me, the angel was just offering the prayers to God.

I really don’t see how that says we should either. Maybe you can explain to me how it does.

Another angel came and stood at the altar, * holding a
gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer,
along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar

that was before the throne.
4 The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the
holy ones === all the holy ones are the people in heaven who are alive in Christ

 

[YADA]

Wait a minute. Did you really say that saints “die to this earthly life”? Are you saying that they really ARE dead to this earthly life? What is so hard then to understand when us Protestants say that you guys pray to dead saints. What we mean is that they have died to this earthly life, as you yourself admit that they do.

I think you know what I mean …

These saints no longer walk in this world … eating supper with us, going to work …

They are not ‘dead’ to consiousness of this world … as the saints who ask for vindication in the book of Revelation illustrate [and many other passages like the Rich Man and Lazarus for one other example]… they [the saints] know of earthly events, they are told more events will occur among their brothers and sisters in Christ … that their numbers [those who have died on earth and risen in heaven to new life] will increase …

Do you really believe that Jesus is the Lord of the dead … no, our god is the God of the Living not the dead … we have EVERLASTING LIFE … what does everlasting mean to you

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

I was told by a non catholic that the reason is because they are not concerned anylonger which is on earth, for they are focused on Praising God…

If God is always concerned with things that are happening on earth, why wouldn’t they be?

Rev 6:[9] When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne;
[10] they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?”

Rev 8:[3] And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of** all the saints **upon the golden altar before the throne;
[4] and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.

Two things:

One, the saints in heaven still communicate with each other and God.

Two, they have an active knowledge of events on earth.

Protestants that I know have a healthy, albeit misplaced, fear that God is offended when we ask others, most notably the saints, for aid.

To my Protestant brothers and sisters reading this:

God will not have any more or any less glory than He does right now. That which is infinite cannot be increased or decreased. Those who have died in Christ are more alive than we are! They are His body triumphant!

If I ask Paul to pray to God to help me understand the scriptures, God is glorified!

If I ask Peter to pray to God that He make make me humble like Peter, God is glorified!

If I ask my ever Blessed Mother Mary to pray to her Son that my sins may be forgiven, God is glorified!

If one of these saints works a miracle in anyone do to my prayer to them, God is glorified!

I ask my Protestant brothers and sisters to pray on this and realize that when we pray for each other, living here on earth or in heaven, that we are in Christ. And that in living a life of love for all those in Christ, in heaven and on earth, God is glorified. There is nothing to fear.

 

[Knowtheledge]

Another angel came and stood at the altar, * holding a
gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer,
along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar

that was before the throne.
4 The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the
holy ones === all the holy ones are the people in heaven who are alive in Christ

Oh, I see what you mean. However, I’ve always thought that the “holy ones” or “saints”, were believers on earth. In Revelation 6, when the slain believers wanted to tell God something, their prayers were not offered up to God by an angel, they simply hollered over at him. And their request wasn’t about those on earth. It was asking about vengeance for themselves.

 

[Knowtheledge]

If God is always concerned with things that are happening on earth, why wouldn’t they be?

Rev 6:[9] When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne;
[10] they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?”

Rev 8:[3] And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of** all the saints **upon the golden altar before the throne;
[4] and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.

Two things:

One, the saints in heaven still communicate with each other and God.

Two, they have an active knowledge of events on earth.

Protestants that I know have a healthy, albeit misplaced, fear that God is offended when we ask others, most notably the saints, for aid.

To my Protestant brothers and sisters reading this:

God will not have any more or any less glory than He does right now. That which is infinite cannot be increased or decreased. Those who have died in Christ are more alive than we are! They are His body triumphant!

If I ask Paul to pray to God to help me understand the scriptures, God is glorified!

If I ask Peter to pray to God that He make make me humble like Peter, God is glorified!

If I ask my ever Blessed Mother Mary to pray to her Son that my sins may be forgiven, God is glorified!

If one of these saints works a miracle in anyone do to my prayer to them, God is glorified!

I ask my Protestant brothers and sisters to pray on this and realize that when we pray for each other, living here on earth or in heaven, that we are in Christ. And that in living a life of love for all those in Christ, in heaven and on earth, God is glorified. There is nothing to fear.

I understand how those in heaven may talk with God about those still on earth. I believe they still care for their family, just like the rich man in Luke, and I believe they are aware of what is going on on earth. Indeed, they are probably “eagerly watching these things happen” just like the angels in 1 Peter. It just seems weird to me to ask those in heaven directly for intercession. Whenever in the Bible believers are admonished to pray for others, it seems to just be for those on earth.
In 1 Thessalonians, the believers actually did not seem to know much about those who had died. Paul, Timothy, and Silas reassured them with this,

Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words. 1 Timothy 4:13-18

Notice they did not say, “Oh, don’t worry about your loved ones, they can actually hear you right now if you pray to them!” In fact, they didn’t even say that those who had died were with Jesus. They made it sound like the dead are waiting for the Lord to return before they are raised up to heaven.

Also you said this,

If I ask my ever Blessed Mother Mary to pray to her Son that my sins may be forgiven, God is glorified!

Why do we need to ask her to pray for our sins? Romans 8:1 says,

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

Ephesians 1 says,

In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding.

So I don’t think we need to worry about our sin if Christ has saved us. We should be confident in God’s grace alone.

 

[YADA]

…Whenever in the Bible believers are admonished to pray for others, it seems to just be for those on earth.

Scripture never states to only pray for those on earth … we offer prayers for the dead as did our Jewish brethren from which we derive our roots … but they did not have the same understanding about life after death - that being one of the points of contention between Pharicese and Saduccese …

In 1 Thessalonians, the believers actually did not seem to know much about those who had died. Paul, Timothy, and Silas reassured them with this,
Notice they did not say, “Oh, don’t worry about your loved ones, they can actually hear you right now if you pray to them!” In fact, they didn’t even say that those who had died were with Jesus. They made it sound like the dead are waiting for the Lord to return before they are raised up to heaven.

And here to your argument fails to convince … the earliest Christians [the original apostles on down to Paul’s day - believed that Jesus was going to return in their life times … Concern for those who died before the Second Coming was great as the came to understand [as best they could] what the Good News of Salvation was and just how long it might be before Christ returned … the Communion of Saints exists throughout time and for all time. Is it a great mystery - yes … but we do know that Jesus is the Creator who Was, Who Is and Who is to Come … He is the Godof the Living not the dead …

Why do we need to ask her to pray for our sins? … I don’t think we need to worry about our sin if Christ has saved us. We should be confident in God’s grace alone.

Christ has saved - YEs, this is true but like Paul … we are working our our Salvation … you seem to subscribe to the “Once saved, Always saved” theology … that you can sin with abandon … but Paul would not have shared your view… Paul considered it possible that he could bring followers to Christ and Life Everlasting and fail to gain that Eternal Rest for himself …

We muct daily return to Christ, repenting when we fail [sin]. We must illustrate our living faith by what we do and how we live our faith … a faith without works is a dead faith … we cannot live our life in Christ in our heads but in our hearts, our hands, our feet, our ears eyes, our minds in fact our whole bodies …

We are Christ in the World … what we do matters. If I pray for you as well as myself and my faith community prays with and for me, I am strengthened, my faith community is strengthened - grace flows … As you acknowledge - even the Rich Man condemned desired a better outcome for his brothers … how much more so those souls already in heaven …

And those Saints in Revelation crying for their vindication … yes, they were asking for themselves but they are also showing concern for the ongoing persecution … the question implies that the suffering won’t end until the Lord acts … they are told that more of their brethren will join their ranks … it is just a glimpse of heaven … it is not limiting - as in that is the ONLY time they spoke not the ONLY question they could ask …

 

[Bill_Pick]

Oh, I see what you mean. However, I’ve always thought that the “holy ones” or “saints”, were believers on earth. In Revelation 6, when the slain believers wanted to tell God something, their prayers were not offered up to God by an angel, they simply hollered over at him. And their request wasn’t about those on earth. It was asking about vengeance for themselves.

All belivesr in Christ never die,read you Bible

 

[Knowtheledge]

Scripture never states to only pray for those on earth

Yes, but it doesn’t say to pray for those in heaven either.

And here to your argument fails to convince … the earliest Christians [the original apostles on down to Paul’s day - believed that Jesus was going to return in their life times … Concern for those who died before the Second Coming was great as the came to understand [as best they could] what the Good News of Salvation was and just how long it might be before Christ returned … the Communion of Saints exists throughout time and for all time. Is it a great mystery - yes … but we do know that Jesus is the Creator who Was, Who Is and Who is to Come … He is the Godof the Living not the dead …

I see your point. It’s just that I don’t see how you can be confident that we should pray to believers in heaven if even those who actually spoke with, and were taught by the Son of God, didn’t know that we could.

Christ has saved - YEs, this is true but like Paul … we are working our our Salvation … you seem to subscribe to the “Once saved, Always saved” theology … that you can sin with abandon … but Paul would not have shared your view… Paul considered it possible that he could bring followers to Christ and Life Everlasting and fail to gain that Eternal Rest for himself …

We muct daily return to Christ, repenting when we fail [sin]. We must illustrate our living faith by what we do and how we live our faith … a faith without works is a dead faith … we cannot live our life in Christ in our heads but in our hearts, our hands, our feet, our ears eyes, our minds in fact our whole bodies …

Okay. I agree with you that we must continue to repent(1 John 1:9), it’s just that I don’t see why need to ask Mary to ask for us. Surely if we simply ask our Father ourselves, he will immediately forgive us?

 

[PJM]

=Knowtheledge;4939153]I know it doesn’t say *do not *pray to others, but the Bible doesn’t say to pray to them either. I don’t really have that big of a problem with Catholics praying to dead saints, I was just trying to explain why I don’t. As to the Revelation verses,

Not true dear friend
2 Mac. 12: "39 On the next day, as by that time it had become necessary, Judas and his men went to take up the bodies of the fallen and to bring them back to lie with their kinsmen in the sepulchres of their fathers. 40 Then under the tunic of every one of the dead they found sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. And it became clear to all that this was why these men had fallen. 41 So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous Judge, who reveals the things that are hidden; 42 and they turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out. And the noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. 43 He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. 44 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. 45 But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."

I don’t see how that says we can pray to dead people. To me, the angel was just offering the prayers to God.

Friend as I read your sincere comments, I amhumbled at God’s Mercy and Love. We Catholics have so many more opportunities at God’s grace than non Catholics. Not just the Seven Sacraments that were instituted by Jesus and thatwe practice, but a fuller and I dare say more correct undertanding of God’s words.

Prayers for the deceased can be found from the very earliest records of Catholic Church History. It is a source of many, many graces. Truly a GIFT from God!

We should not forget that God wants everyone to get to heaven and offers many many graces to us to help us cooperate with His plan for our salvation.

Love and prayers,

 

[YADA]

Yes, but it doesn’t say to pray for those in heaven either.

I see your point. It’s just that I don’t see how you can be confident that we should pray to believers in heaven if even those who actually spoke with, and were taught by the Son of God, didn’t know that we could.

Okay. I agree with you that we must continue to repent(1 John 1:9), it’s just that I don’t see why need to ask Mary to ask for us. Surely if we simply ask our Father ourselves, he will immediately forgive us?

Scripture instructs us to pray for ach other … that we are all a part of the body of Christ … the Bride of Christ …

We don’t stop being any of those by our passing from this life to the next …

We are ALL the body of Christ … do you not have concern for your leg and you hand?

Do you cease to think of your deceased family members at the moment of death? Christ stands outside of time … a great mystery - but if one is a part of the Bride of Christ in 70 AD, they are still the Bride of Christ today … if on is a member of the Church, the Communion of Saints in 90 AD, they remain so to the present …

We are to pray for and strengthen our brethren … that command transcends time and place…

Yes, we pray directly to God …

Tell me this …

Have you ever in your life asked another to pray for you? Why? Could you not have asked God directly? You probably did ask God directly - so why did you ask the other to pray? Are their prayers any more effective then yours? Does God listen to them more then to you? Does not God know your every need before you ask? Have you ever requested the same thing from God more than once [one prayer]? Why, did not God hear you the first time? Why repeat a petition, ever?

Has anyone ever asked you to pray for them? Did you? Why? Why would you net tell them to pray directly to God or Jesus for their needs. Why not tell them that Jesus is the only mediator between them and God. They do not need your prayers … they have recourse directly to the Lord … Is that truly the message of Christianity?

Let me know how you would answer these questions …

 

[Fisher]

Deuteronomy 18:9-12, “When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.”

there is nothing wrong in asking someone to pray for you. I could not agree more. At various times throughout every day, I offer intercessory prayers for my family and friends. There certainly is biblical precedent aplenty for intercessory prayer. For example:

Ephesians 6:18-19, “Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,”

The difference between intercessory prayer such as the kind I offer (biblical) and intercessory prayer (non-biblical) has to do with to whom the prayers are offered. When I pray, I pray only to God Almighty for, as a blood-bought child of God, I can go boldly into His presence. And when I do so, my High Priest stands with me.

Hebrews 4:14-16, “Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.”

If you pray to the spirit of some one who has died. In those prayers, and you ask the recipient to intercede for them before the throne of their supreme god, or goddess, as the case may be. More likely, they will ask that spirit to heal them, help them to find something that is lost, freshen a dry cow, etc. Those are prayers to a spirit, not to God, and that does not please the real God, the God of Scripture.

God knows that all His children have needs, some of which they may not even be aware of. Being a loving and nurturing Father to His children, He provides that help in the form of a divine Intercessor.

Romans 8:26, “Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.”

In other words, every Christian has God the Holy Spirit as his “prayer partner.” Seems to me that is about as good as it gets, as far as our needs are concerned. And when we pray for others, we direct those pleadings not to some pale spirit but to Almighty God Himself.

Isa 40:8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the **word of our God shall stand for ever. **

 

[Knowtheledge]

Not true dear friend
2 Mac. 12: "39 On the next day, as by that time it had become necessary, Judas and his men went to take up the bodies of the fallen and to bring them back to lie with their kinsmen in the sepulchres of their fathers. 40 Then under the tunic of every one of the dead they found sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. And it became clear to all that this was why these men had fallen. 41 So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous Judge, who reveals the things that are hidden; 42 and they turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out. And the noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. 43 He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. 44 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. 45 But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."

Friend as I read your sincere comments, I amhumbled at God’s Mercy and Love. We Catholics have so many more opportunities at God’s grace than non Catholics. Not just the Seven Sacraments that were instituted by Jesus and thatwe practice, but a fuller and I dare say more correct undertanding of God’s words.

Prayers for the deceased can be found from the very earliest records of Catholic Church History. It is a source of many, many graces. Truly a GIFT from God!

We should not forget that God wants everyone to get to heaven and offers many many graces to us to help us cooperate with His plan for our salvation.

Love and prayers,

I haven’t read 2 Maccabees yet. I got the apocrypha at the library and am currently in the middle of the Wisdom of Solomon. So I don’t know how much I should answer until I have read and understood 2 Mac. more.
However, I will say that from the verses you quoted they don’t seem to be praying to those who have died but for them. I don’t know what I think about praying for those who have died. I believe that when Christians die they do not need to worry, for God has forgiven all our sins.
But anyway, thanks for your post, you seem like a very nice person. I just want to say that I didn’t come here to just argue with Catholics or put them down or anything. I just wanted to learn more about Catholicism, and was very glad to find this site.

 

[Knowtheledge]

All belivesr in Christ never die,read you Bible

Okay, I know that all Christians are “alive in Christ.” Whenever I speak about believers dying, I am usually referring to our earthly bodies dying. Even the Bible seems to do this.

For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. Phillipians 1:21

Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment. Heb. 9:27

For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit. 1 Peter 3:18

 

[Knowtheledge]

Scripture instructs us to pray for ach other … that we are all a part of the body of Christ … the Bride of Christ …

We don’t stop being any of those by our passing from this life to the next …

We are ALL the body of Christ … do you not have concern for your leg and you hand?

Do you cease to think of your deceased family members at the moment of death? Christ stands outside of time … a great mystery - but if one is a part of the Bride of Christ in 70 AD, they are still the Bride of Christ today … if on is a member of the Church, the Communion of Saints in 90 AD, they remain so to the present …

We are to pray for and strengthen our brethren … that command transcends time and place…

Yes, we pray directly to God …

Tell me this …

Have you ever in your life asked another to pray for you? Why? Could you not have asked God directly? You probably did ask God directly - so why did you ask the other to pray? Are their prayers any more effective then yours? Does God listen to them more then to you? Does not God know your every need before you ask? Have you ever requested the same thing from God more than once [one prayer]? Why, did not God hear you the first time? Why repeat a petition, ever?

Has anyone ever asked you to pray for them? Did you? Why? Why would you net tell them to pray directly to God or Jesus for their needs. Why not tell them that Jesus is the only mediator between them and God. They do not need your prayers … they have recourse directly to the Lord … Is that truly the message of Christianity?

Let me know how you would answer these questions …

Okay, I think we might just be going in circles here. Yes, I know we should ask other believers to pray for us(Ephesians 6:18-19). And I know all believers are the body of Christ(Ephesians 1:23). But it still seems odd to me to pray to a believer whom we have never even met, and ask them to pray for us. Why can’t we just ask the believers that we know? When I ask somebody to pray for me, I’m not going through them to God, but when I pray to somebody in heaven, it does seem like that is what I’m doing.

 

[YADA]

The difference between intercessory prayer such as the kind I offer (biblical) and intercessory prayer (non-biblical) has to do with to whom the prayers are offered. When I pray, I pray only to God Almighty for, as a blood-bought child of God, I can go boldly into His presence. And when I do so, my High Priest stands with me.

The problem here is you ar only looking at this from your perspective … when you pray for others - you pray directly to God Almighty … but from the perspective of those for whom you pray … is their prayer petition - prayed by you - irenctly from them to God? No, their prayer petition [whether a request or thanksgiving - comes through you … you call that non-bilblical … so when you pray for your friends and family you pray non-biblically [by your own admisiton]

If you pray to the spirit of some one who has died. In those prayers, and you ask the recipient to intercede for them before the throne of their supreme god, or goddess, as the case may be. More likely, they will ask that spirit to heal them, help them to find something that is lost, freshen a dry cow, etc. Those are prayers to a spirit, not to God, and that does not please the real God, the God of Scripture.

I pray only to the One True God - The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I pray in the Name of Jesus the Christ, the Only Son of God … I do not pray to spirits or goddesses or any other God … Nor do any of the people from whom I may request prayer … when my husband was in the hospital - many of our friends in Christ prayed for him. they asked their friends to pray for him … all of those prayers were made to the one True God … If I ask you to pray for me or Mary the Mother of God to pray for me - the rquest is one and the same to pray for and with me to God: Father, Son, Holy Spirit - no more no less … Jesus is the God of the Living & not the dead …

God knows that all His children have needs, some of which they may not even be aware of. Being a loving and nurturing Father to His children, He provides that help in the form of a divine Intercessor.

and asks His children to join him in prayer … scripture instructs us to pray for one another …

Have you ever prayed for someone other than yourself? Why? God knows their needs better then you. Did you tell them to not seek your assistance but go directly to Jesus? If not, Why not?

In other words, every Christian has God the Holy Spirit as his “prayer partner.” Seems to me that is about as good as it gets, as far as our needs are concerned. And when we pray for others, we direct those pleadings not to some pale spirit but to Almighty God Himself.

Isa 40:8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the **word of our God shall stand for ever. **

Again, if you have prayed for someone or on someone’s behalf, did you ever ask another person to also pray for them? … Why, why ask another to also pray?..is not your prayer directly to God enough?

 

[graceandglory]

I don’t see how that says we can pray to dead people.

They’re NOT dead!!!
:banghead:

Jesus came preaching the Kingdom of God is at hand.
The veil between life and death has been lifted.
Everlasting life is everlasting. It begins when you are redeemed.
"Though he were dead, yet shall he live."

The earthly life of the saints is over, but they live forever.

I ask my friends to pray for me. They pray for me during their earthly life.

The Saints are there for the purpose of praying for us, cheering us on.

Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us"
Hebrews 12:1

They are the Church Triumphant, they have made it across the finish line to everlasting life.
We are still the Church Suffering, waiting, running with perseverance this race that is set before us.

They have tasted and seen the face of God.

Just because we can’t see with our earthly eyes that they are alive and rooting for us, doesn’t mean they aren’t. Our believe in everlasting life as Catholics might be a bit more concrete and clear than most protestants.

 

[Knowtheledge]

They’re NOT dead!!!
:banghead:

Jesus came preaching the Kingdom of God is at hand.
The veil between life and death has been lifted.
Everlasting life is everlasting. It begins when you are redeemed.
"Though he were dead, yet shall he live."

The earthly life of the saints is over, but they live forever.

I ask my friends to pray for me. They pray for me during their earthly life.

The Saints are there for the purpose of praying for us, cheering us on.

Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us"
Hebrews 12:1

They are the Church Triumphant, they have made it across the finish line to everlasting life.
We are still the Church Suffering, waiting, running with perseverance this race that is set before us.

They have tasted and seen the face of God.

Just because we can’t see with our earthly eyes that they are alive and rooting for us, doesn’t mean they aren’t. Our believe in everlasting life as Catholics might be a bit more concrete and clear than most protestants.

Yes. I know. I actually agree with mostly everything you say. I know that Christians have been given everlasting life.(John 6:47) You guys keep telling me not to say that any believers are dead, but haven’t you read the title of this thread? And I know Christians should pray for each other.( Ephesians 6:18-19) And I guess those in heaven are probably cheering and praying for us, although I think we should be careful not to try and presume what goes on in heaven. The only thing I disagree with is praying to those in heaven.

 

[Syele]

Goodness people.

There is more than one definition of the word dead used here… Because one is used does not have to imply both, even Scriptures use the word both ways… If a Protestant refers to a dead person we dont mean they are not in heaven spiritually alive, we mean the same thing you mean they are not walking around in their earthly physical bodies anymore. They died.

Why do Catholics insist that only one definition of the word can be used ever? This should not be so hard. In this thread I see Protestants saying over and over they they agree that the people are alive in heaven. but dead from earth. this arguing over semantics.

My objection to praying to saints it the implication that in heaven they are not just alive and not just aware of eartly events but thet that are now all knowing and ubiquitous as well. As a person who has not died yet, I know about earthly events and I am not dead (in either sense of the word) but I in no way can hear what people say in their heads all over the earth at once. As an example, you cannot say “Syele, please pray for me!” right now in your own home and expect me to know what you said! You would have to send me your prayer request by means I have the power to see or hear. email, phone, come to my house etc. I have no reason to decide that (physical)death would give me that ability either. The fact that the Bible does not say “Upon death, all Christians will not be all knowing” does not make it a reasonable assumption to jump to that they are.

 

[YADA]

Goodness people.

There is more than one definition of the word dead used here… Because one is used does not have to imply both, even Scriptures use the word both ways… If a Protestant refers to a dead person we dont mean they are not in heaven spiritually alive, we mean the same thing you mean they are not walking around in their earthly physical bodies anymore. They died.

Why do Catholics insist that only one definition of the word can be used ever? This should not be so hard. In this thread I see Protestants saying over and over they they agree that the people are alive in heaven. but dead from earth. this arguing over semantics.

My objection to praying to saints it the implication that in heaven they are not just alive and not just aware of eartly events but thet that are now all knowing and ubiquitous as well. As a person who has not died yet, I know about earthly events and I am not dead (in either sense of the word) but I in no way can hear what people say in their heads all over the earth at once. As an example, you cannot say “Syele, please pray for me!” right now in your own home and expect me to know what you said! You would have to send me your prayer request by means I have the power to see or hear. email, phone, come to my house etc. I have no reason to decide that (physical)death would give me that ability either. The fact that the Bible does not say “Upon death, all Christians will not be all knowing” does not make it a reasonable assumption to jump to that they are.

We [the belieiving community of believers] are the body of Christ, Past, Present and Future - One with Him … We are the Bride of Christ …

Yes, you need the message to pray for me [a poor sinner] communicated to you in an earthly means … Person to PErson [verbally from me directly, verbally from another person] … via telephone, email, snail mail, morse code, smoke signals …

Do you honestly believe that Jesus [God, Holy Tirinity, Father - however you address Him] does not communicate with His Bride, His Body …

What is so hard about the “Communion of Saints” through time and outside of your personal breathing space to understand? …

Now I do not make it a habit to appeal to Saints myself. I have prayed the Rosary, prayed it daily for a time and my relationship with our Lord was stregnthened … If you choose not to avail yourself of praying for or with the believing community - those already face to face with our lord and those - like St Paul testified to in his earthly life - who are still working our their salvation - it is your choice. It is you who suffer that loss of grace - the strength that comes from lifting others and being lifted up yourself.

The thing I really do not understand is how small you make our Lord … The God of All Creation, the God who formed the world from nothing and placed man in it. The God who loves us as a father, husband and bodily part … would not want the Saints in heaven to join us [earthly members] in prayer. Those prayers praise and honor God in addition to the important and/or petty requests of our daily lives … God does not need our prayer to know our needs. We do not need to recognize His existance for Him to love us … Prayer is more for uplifting us, a way to impart His Love and Grace in our Lives … in the lives of all believers …

We don’t pray to Saints bucause they are omniscient … we pray [which simple mens “ask” not that they are Gods] for their prayers to our Lord be added to ours … We pray with them because that is what the Father asks of us - to pray for each other, to pray with each other, to be a community - an everlasting community … My God set this in motion … He can do anything He wills, my response is to submit to His will and aid my brethren in sme … and love my enemies, too!

When Mary came to Jesus in Cana and told Him the Groom had run out of wine… He said “What is that to me?” … Mary told the waiters … “Do whatever He tells you to.” … Mary always leads us to her Son. She always points out that we muct do whater He [Jesus] tells us to … St. Peter tells us that we may be lead where we do not want to go … but we must stand firm in faith and submit to Jesus not the world … St Paul tell us we must finish the race, stand firm to the end in the Traditions we have been taught by word of mouth or by letter, or risk loosing our salvation … St Therese - the Little Fower - shows us how we can live a life of prayer and perform simple tasks in the love of Christ to His Glory and not our own … all of these loved Christ more then self, dedicated their lives to His Glory and Mission, the Gospel, they lie today mor alive then they ever were in this life. They directed us tho Him then and even more now …

Pax Christe

 

[Syele]

We [the belieiving community of believers] are the body of Christ, Past, Present and Future - One with Him … We are the Bride of Christ …

I do not disagree with this.

Yes, you need the message to pray for me [a poor sinner] communicated to you in an earthly means … Person to PErson [verbally from me directly, verbally from another person] … via telephone, email, snail mail, morse code, smoke signals …

Do you honestly believe that Jesus [God, Holy Tirinity, Father - however you address Him] does not communicate with His Bride, His Body …

I never said He doesn’t communicate with His Bride. There are times when God does communicate these things to His people. For example I have before been woken from sleeping in the night Knowing that someone needed me to pray for them THEN. and I did. And later found that they had been rushed to the hospital. That was God communicating with me to pray for someone. He can and will do this.

What is so hard about the “Communion of Saints” through time and outside of your personal breathing space to understand? …

That they pray for me and all teh people of the earth fine I can understand that. They are alive, they know stuff. But why should I believe that they Know EVERYTHING? Why should I believe theat Mary and hear the individual prayers of every single human on earth should they so choose to pray to her all at once? How do you conclude that my believf that God probably doesnt make all saints all-knowing upon thier arrival in heavvven equal to me beliving that God is limited? God sets limits on His creation. he always has. Why would he Change that?

Now I do not make it a habit to appeal to Saints myself. I have prayed the Rosary, prayed it daily for a time and my relationship with our Lord was stregnthened … If you choose not to avail yourself of praying for or with the believing community - those already face to face with our lord and those - like St Paul testified to in his earthly life - who are still working our their salvation - it is your choice. It is you who suffer that loss of grace - the strength that comes from lifting others and being lifted up yourself.

I pray for others all the time. As I said before it ahs nothing to do with not praying with a community but the idea that any particular members of the community are all-knowing.

The thing I really do not understand is how small you make our Lord … The God of All Creation, the God who formed the world from nothing and placed man in it. The God who loves us as a father, husband and bodily part … would not want the Saints in heaven to join us [earthly members] in prayer. Those prayers praise and honor God in addition to the important and/or petty requests of our daily lives … God does not need our prayer to know our needs. We do not need to recognize His existance for Him to love us … Prayer is more for uplifting us, a way to impart His Love and Grace in our Lives … in the lives of all believers …

Believing that an all powerful God did not necessarily make one particular group (Saints already in heaven) able to hear everyone at once, is not a limit on God but a limit from God. There is a big difference.

We don’t pray to Saints bucause they are omniscient … we pray [which simple mens “ask” not that they are Gods] for their prayers to our Lord be added to ours … We pray with them because that is what the Father asks of us - to pray for each other, to pray with each other, to be a community - an everlasting community … My God set this in motion …

While Catholics always say to pray means simply to ask, Protestants do not use the word the same way. Most every Protestant also attaches an amount of worship to the word “pray” so that it really is meant more of a “To ask with adoring faith and worship.” I can accept the Catholic definition as what the Catholics mean and thus you wont see me leaping to asking why you worsip Saints and such things, But you also should realize that the word ahs a different meaning to a protestant.

He can do anything He wills, my response is to submit to His will and aid my brethren in sme … and love my enemies, too!

Of Course He can! The questions is DID He will for all Saints in Heaven to know everything at once or not? You say Yes I say no. What does Scripture say? it just doesnt say.

When Mary came to Jesus in Cana and told Him the Groom had run out of wine… He said “What is that to me?” … Mary told the waiters … “Do whatever He tells you to.” … Mary always leads us to her Son. She always points out that we muct do whater He [Jesus] tells us to … St. Peter tells us that we may be lead where we do not want to go … but we must stand firm in faith and submit to Jesus not the world … St Paul tell us we must finish the race, stand firm to the end in the Traditions we have been taught by word of mouth or by letter, or risk loosing our salvation … St Therese - the Little Fower - shows us how we can live a life of prayer and perform simple tasks in the love of Christ to His Glory and not our own … all of these loved Christ more then self, dedicated their lives to His Glory and Mission, the Gospel, they lie today mor alive then they ever were in this life. They directed us tho Him then and even more now …

I’m not really sure what set that off, but I never said that they would lead us away from God.