Why do non-Catholics keep saying dead people who are in heaven cannot hear our prayers?

[YADA]

That they pray for me and all teh people of the earth fine I can understand that. They are alive, they know stuff. But why should I believe that they Know EVERYTHING? Why should I believe theat Mary and hear the individual prayers of every single human on earth should they so choose to pray to her all at once? How do you conclude that my believf that God probably doesnt make all saints all-knowing upon thier arrival in heavvven equal to me beliving that God is limited? God sets limits on His creation. he always has. Why would he Change that?

I never said that Saints know everything … they can and do pray with us and for us … why would you doubt that … even the Rich Man condemned communicated with Abraham and Lazarus, requesting first help for himself and then help for his brothers … Asking for prayers does not mean you believe that Saints have become Omniscient, Omnipresent, etc …

I pray for others all the time. As I said before it ahs nothing to do with not praying with a community but the idea that any particular members of the community are all-knowing.

Not all knowing but united with us in prayer …

Believing that an all powerful God did not necessarily make one particular group (Saints already in heaven) able to hear everyone at once, is not a limit on God but a limit from God. There is a big difference.

Why worry who, what or how many prayers the Saints in heaven can hear at once … what if their prayer simply is to pray “with those who request my prayer” … Again, we are unitied in prayer with them … All of our faith comes down to Divine Mysteries that we try to explain in human terms to satisfy human concerns … How is the Trinity - One? … How does Jesus become His Flesh and Blood in simple bread and wine to nourish us … How do we rise to Everlasting Life? … We are a Communion of Saints … we know from Scripture that Saints already long dead are recognizable by those who never laid eyes on them in this life … We know from Scripture that they have concern for us and themselves … We know from Scriptures that they are already in Heven and that their numbers are not complete and that vindication will come … We do not know the "How or the Why " of these things … Faith

While Catholics always say to pray means simply to ask, Protestants do not use the word the same way. Most every Protestant also attaches an amount of worship to the word “pray” so that it really is meant more of a “To ask with adoring faith and worship.” I can accept the Catholic definition as what the Catholics mean and thus you wont see me leaping to asking why you worsip Saints and such things, But you also should realize that the word ahs a different meaning to a protestant.

And you should look to the historical use of the word … even within the Protestant era … Pray means to ask … that you have imposed some modern day limitations upon the meaning does not mean that each and every use of the word pray has to have an amount of worship attached to it … Even my very protestant mother would sarcastically say to me in my youth when I made some outlandish comment “Pray, tell…” … Court documents, even to this very day, are referred to as “pleadings” … And when you ask another protestant to “pray” for you … are you really asking [praying] them to “worship you” … or are you asking them to ask [pray] God for some petition on your behalf?

Of Course He can! The questions is DID He will for all Saints in Heaven to know everything at once or not? You say Yes I say no. What does Scripture say? it just doesnt say.

Scripture tells us to pray for one another - to build up the Body of Christ. Scripture tells we are the Bride of Christ … it does not instruct to only pray for those still living … Scripture does not say that those who die are no longer the Body or the Bride … The first Christians had great concern for those who died. Believing that Jesus would return within their lifetimes; they wanted to know that those who died were heirs to the promises of Christ. They are heirs because - we are One Holy Universal Communion of Saints in Christ Jesus.

What did the earliest Christians believe - 1st and 2nd century … we know that they asked for prayers - even on their grave markers … We know that they made appeal to the Saints … so you say no … but Scripture, the early Christian practice and witness and 2000 years of Faith and even the first Protestant Reformers say “YES”

I’m not really sure what set that off, but I never said that they would lead us away from God.

They won’t, their lives are sign posts on the road to heaven … pointing the way to Jesus

 

[Syele]

I have no reason to believe that my prayers to Saints are heard by those Saints. Just as you have no reason to believe that people in another country can hear you if you speak aloud in your house. This does NOT mean that those people do not ever pray for you, doesn’t mean God cant say “Hey guy in Antarctica, Pray for YADA today” It does mean that generally I wont sit around talking to that guy in Antarctica and assume God will relay all I say to him for me. Just the same I dont assume with no reason to do so that God makes it possible for the saints in heaven to know all I say and think.

if their prayer simply is to pray “with those who request my prayer” then what difference would it make to just say “for those who need … Lord, grant it if its in your will.”? To know they are praying for me is not the same as communicating directly with them. To say that a particular Saint is more inclined to help me find my missing shoe than Jesus is, is assuming that the Saint not only can hear that my particular shoe is, but also that they can actually help to find the shoe, and maybe even that Jesus has better things to do. That is a Whole different thing than jsut to say the Saint is in heaven and prays for the people who are still alive.

Your demand that I study the history of the word prayer and then get all protestants to agree with you is unreasonable. I simply told you what protestants mean when we say the word. You dont have to agree, but you should know that we do see it that way and that words DO evolve over time. That is why English is not a dead language. Im willing to not insist Catholic smean what I mean… but I do not take responsibility for making all the Protestants of the word change to follow Catholic meaning.

 

[adolfo123]

So please tell me how this supports anyone in Heaven as being able to hear our prayers.

because its the body of Christ we come to them as we come onto other members of christ for pray … note he writes at the end Christ our mediator… All Christians can mediate to the father partaking of the one mediator (jesus)… whenever a christian is ask to pray for them its mediation and so they go to the father to mediate by and only in Jesus name our one mediator…The text does show that the saint do know of us for we come onto them, the Angels, the saints, and JESUS who is God…

Why would we come onto them in the first place???

Also remember that Jesus said God is not the God of the death but of the living… and that Saints do not marry in heaven but are like ANGELS… WHAT DO ANGELS DO???

Mar 12:25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

Mar 12:27 He is not God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.

 

[YADA]

I have no reason to believe that my prayers to Saints are heard by those Saints. Just as you have no reason to believe that people in another country can hear you if you speak aloud in your house. This does NOT mean that those people do not ever pray for you, doesn’t mean God cant say “Hey guy in Antarctica, Pray for YADA today” It does mean that generally I wont sit around talking to that guy in Antarctica and assume God will relay all I say to him for me. Just the same I dont assume with no reason to do so that God makes it possible for the saints in heaven to know all I say and think.

if their prayer simply is to pray “with those who request my prayer” then what difference would it make to just say “for those who need … Lord, grant it if its in your will.”? To know they are praying for me is not the same as communicating directly with them. To say that a particular Saint is more inclined to help me find my missing shoe than Jesus is, is assuming that the Saint not only can hear that my particular shoe is, but also that they can actually help to find the shoe, and maybe even that Jesus has better things to do. That is a Whole different thing than jsut to say the Saint is in heaven and prays for the people who are still alive.

Your demand that I study the history of the word prayer and then get all protestants to agree with you is unreasonable. I simply told you what protestants mean when we say the word. You dont have to agree, but you should know that we do see it that way and that words DO evolve over time. That is why English is not a dead language. Im willing to not insist Catholic smean what I mean… but I do not take responsibility for making all the Protestants of the word change to follow Catholic meaning.

English is not a dead language, of that I agree and I fully inderstand that you take “Pray” to mean “worship” my point was 1] becuase it has a different meaning today does not mean that is has lost its meaning … and 2] even you as a protestant use the word to mean somehting less than ‘worship" when you ask another to "pray for’ you … you are not asking them to “worship” for you. …

And you miss the real point of my example of how saints may address their prayers … we do not know … we have glimpses of the after life in scriputre [The Rich Man and Lazarus, Revelation, the Transfiguration, Enoch, Elijah, Abraham … etc.] … these glipses are just that … not complete … but we have communication and recognition … both mysteries but there you have it…

 

[Syele]

English is not a dead language, of that I agree and I fully inderstand that you take “Pray” to mean “worship” my point was 1] becuase it has a different meaning today does not mean that is has lost its meaning … and 2] even you as a protestant use the word to mean somehting less than ‘worship" when you ask another to "pray for’ you … you are not asking them to “worship” for you. …

generally, Id be asking “When you are worshipping and asking things of God, please include me in your petitions” Yes asking is still part of the meaning that doesnt naegate what I believe the meaning is.

And you miss the real point of my example of how saints may address their prayers … we do not know … we have glimpses of the after life in scriputre [The Rich Man and Lazarus, Revelation, the Transfiguration, Enoch, Elijah, Abraham … etc.] … these glipses are just that … not complete … but we have communication and recognition … both mysteries but there you have it…

I have nothing against a belief that Saints may address their prayers in a general manner. And I defiately believe that Saints in Heaven pray. The question the thread asks though is not “DO Saints in Heaven pray?” but “Why do non-Catholics keep saying** dead people who are in heaven cannot hear our prayers**?” So I am answering that:

1. We say they are dead cause they are no longer physically here on earth
2. We believe they cant hear us cause we have no reason to believe they CAN hear our prayers.

Neither of those points say that they are spiritually dead or that they do not pray.

 

[Fisher]

If I ask you to pray for me or Mary the Mother of God to pray for me - the rquest is one and the same to pray for and with me to God: Father, Son, Holy Spirit - no more no less … Jesus is the God of the Living & not the dead …
Again, if you have prayed for someone or on someone’s behalf, did you ever ask another person to also pray for them? … Why, why ask another to also pray?..is not your prayer directly to God enough?

you are asking them to pray for you as you would ask a friend. But a person would have to **pray **to Mary if they are asking her something because she is not physically here.
This is not like asking someone on earth to pray for you, since they are physically here to converse.

When we look in the Bible we find that prayer is directed to God alone. To set up a person as a recipient for our prayers, no matter how great they are is making them out to be deity. Asking a saint to help and guide or protect is something only God can do. As someone once put it, why go to the branch office when you can go to the president. There is not one example of a Christian addressing prayers to Mary or saints, or those who are dead passing from our world. There is much to be said of those who practice Spiritism that use this method. You suggest that Mary is not part of “the dead”, since she’s spiritually alive in Heaven. The passages in Deuteronomy 18 and Isaiah 8 are referring to the physically dead, not the spiritually dead. There are hundreds of prayers and passages about prayer in scripture, and none of them instruct prayers to the dead. The scriptures forbid attempting to contact the dead. there is not one verse of the scripture in the New Testament anywhere which authorized anybody to intercede with God after death.

There is no Old Testament or New Testament teaching of praying to the dead. and while they may be very much alive in heaven the Bible categorizes them as dead because they are no longer with us here on earth after their body is put to the ground.
Duet. 18:10-12 tells us about a medium, a spiritist is some one who calls on the dead. All these have to do with contact, talking and communicating with spirits, which is strictly forbidden. They are in a different place than earth, and fallen angels (demons) love to deceive by convincing people they are their dead relative or someone else

“Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God…” -Exodus 20:4-5

“I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.” -Isaiah 42:8

“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” -1st Timothy 2:5

 

[orange_man]

They think is just mens traditions about this … and are blind of passage like in Hebrew that say we do come to them in a spiritual sense…

Heb 12:22 But what you have come to is Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem where the millions of angels have gathered for the festival,
Heb 12:23 with the whole Church of first-born sons, enrolled as citizens of heaven. You have come to God himself, the supreme Judge, and to the spirits of the upright who have been made perfect;
Heb 12:24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to purifying blood which pleads more insistently than Abel’s.

exegesis please?

 

[orange_man]

because its the body of Christ we come to them as we come onto other members of christ for pray … note he writes at the end Christ our mediator… All Christians can mediate to the father partaking of the one mediator (jesus)… whenever a christian is ask to pray for them its mediation and so they go to the father to mediate by and only in Jesus name our one mediator…The text does show that the saint do know of us for we come onto them, the Angels, the saints, and JESUS who is God…

Why would we come onto them in the first place???

Also remember that Jesus said God is not the God of the death but of the living… and that Saints do not marry in heaven but are like ANGELS… WHAT DO ANGELS DO???

Mar 12:25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

Mar 12:27 He is not God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.

none of what you’ve posted so far provides any reasoning for the practice of veneration? We go to heaven, then are resurrected, then the new heaven and new earth are formed. Great, we will abide in a supernatural state after death, then arise as new angelic beings. No new information, no smoking gun protestants have neglected to read in our bibles.

Still, as in Hebrews 12 (which clearly states “Jesus” is the mediator of the New Covenant) you fail to provide adequate exegesis explaining why we need an additional layer of mediators (which the bible doesn’t mention or even hint at anywhere). Why shouldn’t I believe N.T. Wright who wrote the following:

*Explicit invocation of saints may in fact be — I do not say always is, but may be — a step towards that semi-paganism of which the Reformers were rightly afraid. The world of late Roman antiquity found it difficult to rid its collective imagination of the many-layered panoply of gods and lords, of demi-gods and heroes, that had been collecting in the culture for well over a thousand years. *

Rethinking the Tradition. Morehouse: London, 2003.

 

[YADA]

generally, Id be asking “When you are worshipping and asking things of God, please include me in your petitions” Yes asking is still part of the meaning that doesnt naegate what I believe the meaning is.

And if I ask you or any believer on earth [or any saint already in heaven] to pray for me I would be asking that my needs be inclued your prayers to God as well nothing more nothing less.

I have nothing against a belief that Saints may address their prayers in a general manner.

And I would say that we do not know how saints in heaven address their prayers or how they learn of earthly needs and concerns. We just have evidence from Scripture and early Christian practice and belief that those in heaven can communicate, recognize those who have passed on and show concern for earthly persons and concerns. the How is a mystery … The Why less so … we are commanded to build up the Body of Christ through prayer for each other … we all are the Body of Christ from Mary, Peter and the apostles down through the ages to today …

And I defiately believe that Saints in Heaven pray. The question the thread asks though is not “DO Saints in Heaven pray?” but “Why do non-Catholics keep saying** dead people who are in heaven cannot hear our prayers**?” So I am answering that:

1. We say they are dead cause they are no longer physically here on earth

Acripture tells that even though they die - they have Life Everlasting. God s the God of the Living and not the dead … As Christians we believein a Bodily resurrection … Moses and Elijah had recognizable bodies, Abraham, Lazarus and the Rich man had bodies … Jesus had a body that Thomas could touch and which could pass through locked doors … When Jesus died, the tombs in Jerusalem opened and those long dead came forth in recognizable bodies …

1. We believe they cant hear us cause we have no reason to believe they CAN hear our prayers.

Neither of those points say that they are spiritually dead or that they do not pray.

Well since the Abraham, Lazarus and the Rich Man could hear and speak …

Moses and Elijah conversed with Jesus and Peter, James and John heard and saw … why is that …

Also, do you not realize that much communication is experessed without ‘speaking’ with vocal cords …

 

[LutheranDK]

when the Bible say they do, Do we just read what we think we need to know

Please tell me where the Bible clearly teaches that the dead can hear our prayers.

decides not to hold my breath

 

[adolfo123]

none of what you’ve posted so far provides any reasoning for the practice of veneration? We go to heaven, then are resurrected, then the new heaven and new earth are formed. Great, we will abide in a supernatural state after death, then arise as new angelic beings. No new information, no smoking gun protestants have neglected to read in our bibles.

Still, as in Hebrews 12 (which clearly states “Jesus” is the mediator of the New Covenant) you fail to provide adequate exegesis explaining why we need an additional layer of mediators (which the bible doesn’t mention or even hint at anywhere). Why shouldn’t I believe N.T. Wright who wrote the following:

*Explicit invocation of saints may in fact be — I do not say always is, but may be — a step towards that semi-paganism of which the Reformers were rightly afraid. The world of late Roman antiquity found it difficult to rid its collective imagination of the many-layered panoply of gods and lords, of demi-gods and heroes, that had been collecting in the culture for well over a thousand years. *

Rethinking the Tradition. Morehouse: London, 2003.

Why does the bible say we showed ask other christians on earth to mediate to God (pray) if christ alone is enough??? asking someone or praying for someone is mediating to GOd and man…this is possible for christians become part of the one body of christ. What do you think means to be part of the body of Christ who is our one mediator? this verse should show how strong is the unity of of the body of Christ is: Rev 3:21 He who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I myself conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.

talking about pray of the saint … One Hebrews 12 show that we come to angels, and the saint ( who are like angels) and to Jesus our one mediator… Why would we come to the saints??? Because in the book of Revelation chapter 8 all of the prayers of the saints are taken to an angel who present then to God… (all of the saints is all of the body of christ everyone of them).Also If i may add this even of the prayers by the hands of angel is taken from The book of Tobit and the New Jerusalem made of gold and stones etc…

Now about veneration: worship in the lower sense or praise (old english) for the words have evolved to only mean Worship of god only now at present times…

The bible said a woman who fears the lord is to be praised ro 31:30 Charm is deceitful, and beauty is vain, but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised.

In psalms 45 we see that the Queen of the Messiah King ( God said that He is going to make the people praise(honor) her forever Psa 45:17 I will cause your name to be celebrated in all generations; therefore the peoples will praise you for ever and ever. …Now some might say its the Church the bride (which would make stronger the honor of the saints, but their is a problem with that, for the Queen of the davadic Kings was always the Mother of the king… and in the new testament this verse is echoed in the canticle of Mary : Luk 1:48 … For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed;
and Also Elizabeth called Mary Bless in luk. 1:42 and the word used their for bless can also be translated as a “praise” an honor of Elizabeth to Mary…:eulogeō :to speak well of, that is, (religiously) to bless (thank or invoke a benediction upon, prosper): - bless, praise. (Greek Strong’s)

we are to be imitator of the Saints for they are of Christ:1Co 11:1 Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.

All of the body of Christ feels our joy and pain and the inferior member are given greater honor:1Co 12:24 which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part,
1Co 12:25 that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another.
1Co 12:26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.
1Co 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.

What great glory of Christ that he would give greater honor to a inferior member when he himself is the most important member ( this shows his greater glory, so humble )

other verse to support this idea…
Gal 1:24 And they glorified God because of me.

Php 3:17 Brethren, join in imitating me, and “”"“mark”""" those who so live as you have an example in us.
Php 3:18 For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, live as enemies of the cross of Christ.
Php 3:19 Their end is destruction, their god is the belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things.
Php 3:20 But our commonwealth is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,

1Th 1:6 And you became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you received the word in much affliction, with joy inspired by the Holy Spirit;
1Th 1:7 so that you became an example to all the believers in Macedo’nia and in Acha’ia.

2Th 3:7 For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us; we were not idle when we were with you,

 

[sambos671]

Can you be catholic and refuse to pray to saints or to Mary?

 

[YADA]

As a personal action of prayer or piety, you can pray or not pray to saints or Mary … It is your choice - you are not compelled for example to pray a “Rosary” … or ask St. Anthony to assist you in locatig your car keys …

In the Mass, the names of saints are mentioned at various times - here for example:

I confess to almighty God, and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned through my own fault, in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done, and in what I have failed to do; and I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin, all the angels and saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God.

The Eucharistic prayers include the mention of Saints …

So if any mmention of a requested prayer from a Saint was considered impossible for you … being a member of the Christian community in an apostolic faith tradition would be problematic I think …

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

I understand how those in heaven may talk with God about those still on earth. I believe they still care for their family, just like the rich man in Luke, and I believe they are aware of what is going on on earth. Indeed, they are probably “eagerly watching these things happen” just like the angels in 1 Peter. It just seems weird to me to ask those in heaven directly for intercession. Whenever in the Bible believers are admonished to pray for others, it seems to just be for those on earth.
In 1 Thessalonians, the believers actually did not seem to know much about those who had died. Paul, Timothy, and Silas reassured them with this,

Notice they did not say, “Oh, don’t worry about your loved ones, they can actually hear you right now if you pray to them!” In fact, they didn’t even say that those who had died were with Jesus. They made it sound like the dead are waiting for the Lord to return before they are raised up to heaven.

Paul is telling the Thessalonians not to live in despair for those who have gone ahead of them in the Lord. The passage you cited is out of context.

The writer of Hebrews speaks of “a great cloud of witnesses” that surround us on earth.

What do witnesses do?

Also you said this,

Why do we need to ask her to pray for our sins? Romans 8:1 says,
Ephesians 1 says,

So I don’t think we need to worry about our sin if Christ has saved us. We should be confident in God’s grace alone.

You again take Rom 8:1 out of context. There is a qualifier(s) to that verse are in v. 9]“if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you.” & v. 17]"… provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him."

“May”, “if”, “provided”; you really should look at the who passage in its context before to take one phrase in isolation and expound an entire doctrine off of that one phrase. Paul has always been known for being a very deep and thoughtful writer, but also rather long-winded.

(It’s also funny that you cite Ephesians 1, whic at the end of the chapter says something about the Church: [22] and he has put all things under his feet and has made him the head over all things for the church,
[23] which is his body, **the fulness of him who fills all in all." **

If the Church is the fullness of Him who fills all in all, how can any Protestant say that there exists no authority outside the bible? [see also 1 Tim 3:15])

OSAS is not biblical. The bible talks about how our sins hold Jesus up to contempt and in sinning we re-crucify Him. God’s mercy does not negate His justice. It is unwise to make light the issue of sin. God saw sin as so offensive that He sent His only Son to suffer and die a humiliating death on a cross. What do you think God likes more, a heart full of prideful confidence, or a heart full of humility and contrition?

Heb 10:[26] For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth,** there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
[27] but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. [28] A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses.
[29] How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God**, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?

God’s grace is a gift that can be rejected by the very act of our sinning. Hebrews speaks very plainly that if we sin after our incorporation into Christ’s body His sacrifice no longer remains in us. By our sin we have “spurned the blood” of Christ and “outraged the Spirit of grace.” How can one continue in unrepented sin and yet still claim to live a life of grace in the Spirit when by your sin you have outraged that very same Spirit?

If we don’t need to worry about our sin why does Paul write so much in his letters about avoiding sin?

Paul tells us that praying for one another is “acceptable in the sight of God our Savior.”

1 Tim 2:[1] First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, (Paul makes no distinction between those on earth or those who have died in Christ)
[2] for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way.
**[3] This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, **
[4] who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

James 5:[14] Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;
[15] and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
[16] Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.

I confess to Almighty God,
And to you my brothers and sisters,
That I have sinned through my own fault.
In my thoughts, and in my words,
In what I have done, and what I have failed to do.
So I ask the blessed Mary, Ever Virgin,
All the angels and saints,
And you my brothers and sisters,
To pray for me to the Lord, our God.

Amen!

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

What glory does God lose by allowing others in heaven to hear or even to act upon the prayers of us on earth?

 

[Syele]

And if I ask you or any believer on earth [or any saint already in heaven] to pray for me I would be asking that my needs be inclued your prayers to God as well nothing more nothing less.

the question is well beyond that though.

And I would say that we do not know how saints in heaven address their prayers or how they learn of earthly needs and concerns. We just have evidence from Scripture and early Christian practice and belief that those in heaven can communicate, recognize those who have passed on and show concern for earthly persons and concerns. the How is a mystery … The Why less so … we are commanded to build up the Body of Christ through prayer for each other … we all are the Body of Christ from Mary, Peter and the apostles down through the ages to today …

I have not seen such evidence. I ahve seen that they on occasion might know of some earthly affairs. I also see that it says they pray to God. On occasion you see evidences of them communicating directly with people in scriptures (But this was not by prayer but by appearing !) Nowhere are we told we ahve a direct line of communication with them. in the same way I dont have one with you without some sort of communications device.

Acripture tells that even though they die - they have Life Everlasting. God s the God of the Living and not the dead … As Christians we believein a Bodily resurrection … Moses and Elijah had recognizable bodies, Abraham, Lazarus and the Rich man had bodies … Jesus had a body that Thomas could touch and which could pass through locked doors … When Jesus died, the tombs in Jerusalem opened and those long dead came forth in recognizable bodies …

jsut because someone is alive does not follow that they have such aabilities

Well since the Abraham, Lazarus and the Rich Man could hear and speak …

Moses and Elijah conversed with Jesus and Peter, James and John heard and saw … why is that …

That has nothing to do with prayer…

Also, do you not realize that much communication is experessed without ‘speaking’ with vocal cords …

of course there is, but again you have no evidence that they are doing so, only that they are alive and that they pray and you HOPE they can hear you.You have to make an incredible amount of assumptions to say that Scripture tells you to pray to saints. If you want to appeal to Catholic Church Tradition, I can accept that, but saying over and over they are alive and the Bible says to pray to them… well you will have to give more evidence than they they are alive.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I was told by a non catholic that the reason is because they are not concerned anylonger which is on earth, for they are focused on Praising God…

That is something about them that is too often ignored ​

 

[YADA]

… of course there is, but again you have no evidence that they are doing so, only that they are alive and that they pray and you HOPE they can hear you.You have to make an incredible amount of assumptions to say that Scripture tells you to pray to saints. If you want to appeal to Catholic Church Tradition, I can accept that, but saying over and over they are alive and the Bible says to pray to them… well you will have to give more evidence than they they are alive.

But I have asked you to look to what early Christians believed and understood … [and I would consider that “Catholic” but in reality and historically they can be looked to as early Christian witnesses] … and as I have noted early grave markers have the phrase "Pray for me’ [the inhabitant] and references to prayers of Saints already passed “… pary for us”

Scripture gives a a glimpse … when you say they cannot hear … and scripture shows they can … when you say they cannot know aboutearthly concerns and they do …

added to the belief and practices from the earliest Christian’s… which I have mentioned in other posts …

You see - we do not look to scriptures wriiten over a period of time after the existance of the Church to be the sole basis from which we look at our faith … and as I have pointed out … it is faith … we cannot know first hand … we look to the evidence …

You say that the only evidence you will look at is Scripture … *

I will look at Scripture "to be ignorant of scripture is to be ignorant of Christ" Jerome or Clement - I forget at this moment ] … but I also will look at the early patristic writings, the church througout the ages, even archeology and liturature.

Also, though I am sure you would discount personal testimony, I know many people who have asked for a Saint’s prayers and had them answered … by God … where the person is certain it was through the Saint … however, while I may find some individuals carried away there are some who I find very credible …*

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

If God is always concerned with things that are happening on earth, why wouldn’t they be?

Isn’t there a slight difference between them, & God ? What is true of God, is not always true of them; which is why no one says, “We believe in Saints Peter & Paul, creators of heaven & earth…” ​

God is Omniscient - is St. Teresa of Avila ? And so on: some Divine attributes & works are God’s alone; so not all statements about God are applicable to them: St. John Baptist is no more simple, eternal, uncreated, infinite than the Apostles or martyrs. Holiness OTOH can be conferred on mere creatures, as can the moral & intellectual & theological virtues, so that they are elevated by grace to a participation in the Divine Life which would otherwise be necessary, but impossible, for them.

(Most people are doubtless well aware of this - lurkers might not be.)

Rev 6:[9] When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne;
[10] they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?”

This is hardly intercession - it’s a plea for Divine vengeance. ​

Rev 8:[3] And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of** all the saints **upon the golden altar before the throne;

That doesn’t prove anything about intercession by the Saints in heaven. And the context does not favour such an interpretation. And - what is that “golden altar” for ? the answer is important, because the GA is important. If it wwere not important to the passage & the book, why is it there ?​

[4] and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.

Two things:

One, the saints in heaven still communicate with each other and God.

Two, they have an active knowledge of events on earth.

Protestants that I know have a healthy, albeit misplaced, fear that God is offended when we ask others, most notably the saints, for aid.

To my Protestant brothers and sisters reading this:

God will not have any more or any less glory than He does right now. That which is infinite cannot be increased or decreased. Those who have died in Christ are more alive than we are! They are His body triumphant!

If I ask Paul to pray to God to help me understand the scriptures, God is glorified!

If I ask Peter to pray to God that He make make me humble like Peter, God is glorified!

If I ask my ever Blessed Mother Mary to pray to her Son that my sins may be forgiven, God is glorified!

If one of these saints works a miracle in anyone do to my prayer to them, God is glorified!

I ask my Protestant brothers and sisters to pray on this and realize that when we pray for each other, living here on earth or in heaven, that we are in Christ. And that in living a life of love for all those in Christ, in heaven and on earth, God is glorified. There is nothing to fear.

 

[orange_man]

Why does the bible say we showed ask other christians on earth to mediate to God (pray) if christ alone is enough??? asking someone or praying for someone is mediating to GOd and man…this is possible for christians become part of the one body of christ. What do you think means to be part of the body of Christ who is our one mediator? this verse should show how strong is the unity of of the body of Christ is: Rev 3:21 He who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I myself conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.

it talks about asking our friend or loved one (who is alive) to pray for us (and praying for others). There is no support found in any passage in scripture for praying to dead men we presume to be saints … period! Nor will any apostolic tradition help you. This is a man made doctrine invented by the Roman imagination (already inundated with centuries of pagan imagery). Just look at the striking similarity between the concept of patronage and the way the Roman major and minor gods were worshipped. Roman pagans ascribed each god to an occupation, location, and so on (the same exact methodology carried over into invocation to saints).