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Allweather
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I don’t have any particular problem with the quote you provided from Caesar. In fact, I agree with him.
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Allweather
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Thanks for having such an even-handed attitude, Edwin.
I see the problem being that there is such a difference between the evangelical idea of salvation and the Catholic one. Catholics don’t generally use the word “saved” and surely when they do they don’t mean what evangelicals mean by it. For an evangelical, salvation is a sudden moment in time, as you infer in the quote above, calling it a “decision.” In Catholicism, salvation refers to a process, a lifelong process, rather than a moment in time.
My own experience of having spent a few years among the pop evangelicals (the TV preachers, as well as some cult-sect types, like United Pentecostal Church) allows me to know that the moment-in-time idea is a pretty shallow one that doesn’t really work. This is why you see people answering altar calls over and over and over again, and buying bible after bible, always looking for that eternal scripture translation, or that special moment of “salvation.” Also why so many do fall away from their evangelical faith whenever hard times come and they are unable to reconcile their pain with what the fancy-hair health and wealth preacher told them.
Salvation is a lifelong journey. No one except God knows who will be saved. We conform ourselves to Christ and stay in a state of grace through confession and the Eucharist, throw ourselves on the mercy of God and hope for eternal life. It is decision after decision after decision, rather than a single decision that leads inalterably to eternal life.
That is a very different concept of salvation than what typical evangelicals have, and why it is hard for us to read off the same page.
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Beno
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rtconstant, with your knowledge and past experiences, I consider your lucid comments to be quite insightful. There are probably as many answers to the topic as there are non-Catholic missions.
As a Catholic working as a musician at a Presbyterian church, I feel I’m a bit in a quandry. First let me say that I have absolute respect for the members of this particular congregation and I see love in action every day that I come into contact with them. I am caught between wanting to know and not wanting to know who they target in their medical/spiritual mission to the Dominican Republic. If I dare ask, and they reveal that they are targeting Catholics, then my desire to defend the Catholic Church (with respect and charity) will probably kick in. On the other hand, if I don’t ask, then there will be less of a chance that I will feel the need to defend my faith. This will help to ensure that I won’t jeopardize my job as a paid musician. So do I ask, or don’t I?
I’ll add that I did write a letter to the local presbyter who has an advisory role to the local PCUSA churches. I asked him to please consider the religious backgound and faith traditions of the hispanics in neighborhoods that are considered by the Presbyterians to be a mission field. I did not receive a reply from him. However, the reality suggests that one of the local Presbyterian churches in the hispanic neighborhood may soon close anyway despite their efforts to appeal to hispanics with outreach programs and worship services in spanish. There just aren’t enough people attending and becoming members there.
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Beno
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JesusforMadrid, this is off topic but I feel the need to offer to you a clarification concerning your use of the term “Roman Catholic Church”. There is but a single Catholic Church of which there are many forms or rites which incorporate different cultures, customs, and languages as found around the world. The one you call the “Roman Catholic Church” uses the Roman Rite and is but one form that developed around the city of Rome after St. Peter settled there. The pope lives in Rome but there’s no rule that says he has to be of the Roman Rite. The Roman Rite is the major Rite of the United States. Other Rites in the western parts of the Catholic Church are the Mozarabic Rite and the Byzantine Rite. In the East, there are the Alexandrian, Coptic, and Ethiopian Rites. There are also the Antiochene, Maronite, Armenian, and Chaldean Rites in other areas of the world. My point? Please call all of us as members of the one “Catholic Church”.
(I have borrowed some of this information from “Why Do Catholics Do That” by Kevin Orlin Johnson, PH.D.)
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Allweather
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Tough situation. I can relate, at least in part. For years I tuned and repaired pianos for a living and did much of my work in churches, which took me to every denomination in town. In the smaller churches, my contact would often be the pastor himself, and he would meet me at the church to let me in and show me the piano, and then pay me after I finished. I often engaged in superficial conversations about religion with these folks, and had many opportunities to speak of Catholicism, though generally I considered it best not to get in too deep.
Of course, that is very different from your situation, where you are probably organizing the musical parts of worship, the choir, etc. I’m not sure I could handle that in a non-Catholic setting. My hat is off to you. Maybe you’re doing some seed planting without being particularly aware of it.
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Beno
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You could be right but it would not be proper nor is it my intent to proselytize or push my Catholic beliefs on anyone there. If I am planting seeds, as you said, it would be beyond my awareness. However, if someone speaks ill of or without sufficient knowledge of the Catholic Church, then I hope to respectfully shed some light, as I have done on a couple of occasions. Until a Director of Music position opens up at a local Catholic parish, I will consider my time to be both blessed and fruitful by being among our other brothers and sisters in Christ.
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rr1213
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Well said.
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Allweather
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Well, I think you’re doing it just right. Certainly, active proselytization would be wrong. Probably get you fired in no time, LOL. You have to walk a fine line, even when “respectfully shed(ding) some light” as you say. Most often it is better to remain silent rather than to blurt out a defense of the faith. Among Presbyterians, though, you probably don’t encounter too much overt anti-Catholicism, as you might among fundamentalists.
Are there factions within the Presbyterians? Rightwing, leftwing, fundamentalist? Stuff like that? Or are they all pretty much identical?
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rr1213
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There’s factions. The Presbyterian Church USA is the largest such denomination in the US and tends on the liberal side, although there are certainly some very conservative folks there also. The Presbyterian Church in America is a smaller but pretty consistently conservative denomination. There may be more. I’ll say one thing for the Presbyterians, they must have fabulous seminaries. I know this is a generalization, but I don’t think I’ve heard a bad sermon from a Presbyterian minister (I’ve attended a number of services and spent close to one year in on PCA Church and another year in another PCA Church when the job required some moves). They tend to take a very intellectual, reasoned approach to things.
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artist3189
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Hi Edwin, good post. Let me say one thing, I am not angry about anything here, really, why would I be. I was simply stating a FACT about MY real world experience with evangelicals in my area, which I CLEARLY stated. I have quite a bit of experience, not world wide, but being a RCIA instructor, and having many friends who belong to various evangelical groups, I know the feedback and CLEARLY most DO NOT believe Catholics are Christians, period. That’s the facts. They do not have a true and clear co-ordinated understanding of that belief nor of the Bible for that matter, this is also a fact, at least here. Three more evangelical Church’s have sprung up, in the last six years of so, each one an offshoot of the other, due to disagreement and/or leaders wishing to take the congregation in a different direction or with a different mission statement. They splinter and splinter. Billy Graham, who I admire, was NOT a great lover of Catholics during most of his early ministry, this is also a fact and only later in his life did he finally start to embrace the Catholic faith as brother Christians and I assume you know this. But everyone can change and change for the better. I have no problem with Evangelicals, I just don’t like hard line proselytizing toward Catholics because they, ‘need to be saved’. To me that indicates, ‘that they aren’t saved while in the Church’, and THAT angers me. To me the Catholic Church is the one True Church, not the evangelical movement and I will do everything in my power not allow souls to be pulled away from the truth. By the way, I really respect your views and your thoughtfullness and…are you ready…I feel COMPELLED to tell you Edwin, that you should be a Catholic, you need to be, it’s where you really belong…I think if you spend some time really studying, watch EWTN, get some tapes from former evangelicals minister like Mike Cumbie, really open yourself to what the Church really teaches, you’ll find answers you just didn’t think could be possible. You’ll be blessed to finally have the FULLNESS of faith. Saint John Bosco, pray of Edwin and me too! PS I do browse Christinaity today and whatever else I can get my hands on, I make a point of understanding what I can since I do RCIA, but I’m not expert, just a schmuck in the trenches. But I get door knockers and I hear their words and it ain’t all good.Because you don’t understand the theological assumptions behind it, and you are so hurt and angry that you don’t want to understand.
Do you read Christianity Today or any other mainstream evangelical periodical? Have you hung out with evangelicals in different parts of the country or world? Have you interacted with them in a setting where they had not sought you out to try to convert you (which obviously self-selects for those who think you need converting)? Have you tried witnessing to your relationship with Christ as you experience it in the Catholic Church? (I’m not saying that you have to do this, only that doing it would provide a test of whether they think Catholics “can be Christians” or not–if they have only encountered Catholics who speak in terms that seem to them hopelessly ritualistic and external, then they will probably tend to dismiss all Catholics, just as you unfairly generalize about all evangelicals on the basis of *your *limited experience. )
Well, that’s the part of my post I felt bad about. It’s true, but it’s true of all Christian churches to some extent (even evangelicals, zealous as they are, generally fail to promote certain vitally important aspects of the Christian life). It’s unseemly to speak of the shortcomings of another Christian communion, but given the importance of Catholicism and the nature of its claims it’s hard to avoid doing something of the sort. . . . I’m afraid that’s the price you pay for being the center of the Christian world (in every possible way). Still, we all have enough to be ashamed of that we should be slow to point out the flaws of others, both individually and collectively. And your last two Popes (not putting down earlier ones, but these are the two whose pontificates I have experienced personally) are (in very different ways) among the greatest proclaimers of the Gospel in recent church history. Every time I hear BXVI preach it’s as if the Gospel were coming to life before my eyes. Now if only this evangelistic ability would trickle down to more Catholic parishes!
In Christ,
Edwin
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rr1213
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If Edwin converts, then where will be the rational, reasonable voice on the Protestant side of the fence? 
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artist3189
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Hey rr1213, you come too, then you can let someone else worry about that:thumbsup: And I’m not kidding!If Edwin converts, then where will be the rational, reasonable voice on the Protestant side of the fence?
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Allweather
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Yes, I think the Protestants do a much better job of teaching preaching in their seminaries. I’ve known one or two protestant ministers who were terrible preachers, but most of them I’ve know were really, really good. Especially compared to the typical Catholic priest.
I often wish that Catholic seminaries put more emphasis on preaching. I reckon this relates to the difference between Catholics and Protestants with regard to the nature of our worship services. For Protestants, the sermon is the centerpiece. For Catholics, the Eucharist is the centerpiece. It is a very different emphasis. My Baptist grandmother once told me that Baptists wouldn’t consider a man to have a calling unless he could deliver a rousing sermon. Catholics would be much more accepting of a holy man who BTW couldn’t sermon himself out of a wet paper bag.
While I’d like better homilies, I’m perfectly OK with what we have, which is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord, Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. The Protestants don’t have THAT.
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rr1213
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Some day maybe. Sometimes I think that is just around the corner, other times I am convinced it will never happen.Hey rr1213, you come too, then you can let someone else worry about that:thumbsup: And I’m not kidding!
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Allweather
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It is, and it will! The effects of John Paul II are being felt now, and will continue on for decades. Benedict is stylistically very different than JPII. JPII was ever the actor, always needing to be on center stage. Benedict is shy, but yet no limp wrist. During his years at CDF he became something of a terror among the daring theologians who have so upset the faithful with their antics.
I believe that, if we tarry, JPII and Benedict will be viewed by history as complements of the same back-to-basics message. That is CERTAINLY Benedict’s message. During Vatican II, he was something of a liberal. As the liberal influences ruined many reforms of Vatican II, he turned to the right, and today is a very solid, down-to-earth leader. It has been said that he favors a smaller (if necessary), more fervent Catholicism.
And, I agree about his preaching style. His voice reminds me of James Mason, the British actor. It is a lovely sing-song voice that denotes the authority of Peter, not by shouting, but by the bare, nekked truth.
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rr1213
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Good points. I guess my only response would be that as a faithful Catholic I don’t see why you couldn’t have both. Yes, your emphasis is on the Liturgy of the Eucharist, but the Liturgy of the Word is important also. Maybe your seminaries need to emphasize preaching a bit more. Again, these are generalizations. I’ve certainly heard some very fine homilies by Catholic priests as well.
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Allweather
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I think we can have both. The pastor at my parish is an outstanding preacher. He’s only about 40 years old, so I think there is hope that sermonizing is being better taught in the seminaries. The fruit of his sermons is easy to see, too. It is a very large parish, with six masses every Sunday, all filled to the overflowing.
First, though, I reckon we need holy priests. Somehow, the U.S. Church got off the track after Vatican II. Some of the men who were ordained during the 60’s, it just makes you wonder. I understand that something like 20,000 of them resigned to get married. Then there is the sexual abuse thing. It is obvious to me that the U.S. Church was cranking out some ringers, and quite a lot of them. Reforms take time. I understand that the seminaries are filling up again. The conservative seminaries are full, so I hear. A couple of days ago I was listening to a radio program in which a nun was saying that their order is so full that they don’t know what to do with all of the women. These are very hopeful signs! We hope things are turning around. We will be happy to have holy priests, and worry about the homiles later. A great public speaker is just as likely to be Elmer Gantry as not. It begins with holiness and orthodoxy.
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rr1213
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Agreed and, to some degree, teaching and speaking skills can be learned.
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artist3189
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Well I feel that way about a lot of things! Sometimes God has other plans. Most of the time we try to ignore it, and I do that with a lot of other things too, human nature is hard to deal with. But ya never know! With all the Catholic Church’s outward ‘flaws’ and there are many, the beauty and Truth found inside, is something that can not be destroyed by foolish or evil men, is so profound and deep and wide, it’s really amazing. You can spend the rest of your life reading, studying, discussing or running from Roma-phobia, as I heard it called, thats great, but until you accept this, then its impossible to understand…
’Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, *you do not *have life within you.
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink."
"Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?”
“As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.”
The Catholic Church didn’t declare this, not the Pope, not the Saints. Until you can grasp this, it’s as tough to hear and accept now as it was 2000 years ago to those that heard it right from our Saviour’s mouth. Don’t stop, at least, asking questions.
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artist3189
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This is right on, and I also have a good pastor, thank God! Go to oblatesofmary.com Nice little traditional order of Benedictines, just given their charter by the Vatican, they are an example of unbelievably strong, intensely holy, self sufficient, prayerful women who are taking back the Church from the sixties. I know them, personally and they are amazing women, I love them to death.
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