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JesusforMadrid
Guest
Relax. See post #135.
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artist3189
Guest
Sorry, I did, later on, I’m relaxed! For now!
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Allweather
Guest
I wonder if there are any ecumenical efforts being made in this area? You are right, if we could cooperate somehow to oppose these cults that keep popping up, that’d be a great thing!
J
JesusforMadrid
Guest
Interestingly, many of the major evangelistic efforts of the 20th century which were led my evangelicals were inclusive of Catholics: Billy Graham, Promise Keepers, Campus Crusade, Intervarsity, the Alpha Course.
Is there a special blessing for those who take unity seriously?
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Caesar
Guest
The only true unity is that which unites all Christians under the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, under the visible leadership of the Roman Pontiff. While anything that keeps differant groups from butchering each other is a good thing, there is only one true form of Christian unity.
Because protestantism is a heresy, rejecting key teachings of Our Lord Jesus Christ, any spread of it is the work of the Evil One.
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rr1213
Guest
Caesar, of course, is one of these referenced people on the Catholic side of the split. See Caesar’s post, supra.
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christianley
Guest
Why can’t the Catholic Church in Latin America keep its members? Why do so many convert away from Catholicism? That is more important than wondering why non-Catholics go there to evangelize. The real question is why are non-Catholics so successful in their efforts?
I attended a Catholic mass on Sunday in the Dominican Republic last spring. What amazed me was how much the Catholic parish seemed to be immitating the Protestants. Before the mass they had a short play done by the young people. At the end of the mass a young woman cantor (and she was absolutely beautiful) gave a five minute sermon in the evangelical style while music played in the background. I had a hard time catching all of the Spanish, but it was very moving. I almost expected the people to start speaking in tongues at any moment. I’m sure this type of thing is being done in an effort to appeal to the youth, but the people in attendance seemed to mainly be rich older women.
Out on the streets of Santo Domingo I saw at least five different pairs of Mormon missionaries and walked by their temple next to the American embassy. They seemed to be having success in the Dominican Republic even though I can’t say for sure what kind of retention rates they have. I saw lots of Protestant meeting houses as well. I also attended a mass at the cathedral in Santo Domingo – there seemed to be a lot of empty seats for a Sunday morning mass.
On the other hand I attended a Catholic mass in Puerto Rico a few years ago and it was standing room only in a huge cathedral.
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artist3189
Guest
All true. I see no real problem with the Mormons, because once a convert really looks into it, they re-vert. But what you say is true, and answers are not easy to come by. The Church has always allowed a certain amount of ‘ethnic influence’ within a Catholic Mass services, so it’s not surprising to see Latin counties do that, nor with the advent of Catholic Charismatic movements. Empty pews, sure everywhere, but also keep in mind most parishes may have up to 4 Masses, including Saturday night, so membership spreads out. My Parish church has 1200 families, with around 3000 total parishioners, and with average Mass attendance in the US, at I think around 30%, thats 900 people, but, we have 4 Masses, and everyone spreads out, you can go to the Mass at 11:30 on Sunday and its only 2/3 full but if they only had 1 Mass, they’d be out the door and into the parking lot. And in Latin countries, it is very likely that there are* many **many *Catholic Parishes in close proximity to each other, just like highly Catholic areas here in the US, which spreads out people, unlike larger evangelical churches. But Mass attendance is down overall. My take is, people today, are so in need of an ‘experience’, ‘sensation’ or ‘interaction’, that they are easily swayed by the powerful PRESENTATION by many evangelical services. But, sadly, they are ignorant in TRUTH of their own church, The Catholic Church, they don’t know their own faith. They leave the TRUE CHURCH to pursue, a feeling of fellowship. The Church has done a lousy job of educating it’s own members. Funny thing is, and no disrespect to our Prot friends, but from my reading, personnel experience and many testimonies, the more BIBLICAL a person gets, the more they understand CHURCH HISTORY, the more likely they are to convert to RCC or re-vert. Which to me, goes to show we do a lousy job in the first place, this is my thought anyway. PS. Interesting and glad to see you attend a few Masses, It can’t hurt and I think it’s nice to have others attend so they really know what’s going on, not just what they hear.
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rtconstant
Guest
For the protestants that are out there who honestly don’t understand why this sort of thing bothers Catholics let me try to explain. As Catholics we really are inundated on a constant basis by misconceptions and prejudices about what we do and believe. We do run into a sizable amount of evangelicals who do not even view us as Christian. We are also aware that often our less (theologically) knowledgeable brothers are often preyed upon by opportunistic types who tell them lies about the Faith in order to get them into their own churches.
Often the types of evangelical who lie about The Church are also amongst your more unsavory types. You know the guys that embarrass you protestants on TV with wild theologies, theatrics and money grubbing? To clarify I say the last sentence in sympathy I used to be an evangelical and I so I remember how embarrassing and stereotype feeding these guys were for me.
Anyway, when a Catholic sees a strong mission force going into a country that is by and large Catholic we can get our hackles up because it looks like more of the same. I realize that many missionaries go to these countries not to compete with Catholicism but try and fill the gap. Still it can be hard to tell which ones are which for us.
I hope that helps you to empathize with our point of view.
Now, on to my Catholic brothers and sisters we have face up to the fact that many of these problems would be avoided if we as individuals and as a whole church put a higher priority on catechizing our own. When was the last time you saw a well versed Catholic convert? Conservative priests and parishioners who believe and live the life of our Lord will make all of this unnecessary. When we allow the light of our Lord Jesus Christ shine through our lives through morality, charity and prayer (and I’m as guilty of falling short as the next guy) then I think we’ll see most of our problems disappear.
Often the types of evangelical who lie about The Church are also amongst your more unsavory types. You know the guys that embarrass you protestants on TV with wild theologies, theatrics and money grubbing? To clarify I say the last sentence in sympathy I used to be an evangelical and I so I remember how embarrassing and stereotype feeding these guys were for me.
Anyway, when a Catholic sees a strong mission force going into a country that is by and large Catholic we can get our hackles up because it looks like more of the same. I realize that many missionaries go to these countries not to compete with Catholicism but try and fill the gap. Still it can be hard to tell which ones are which for us.
I hope that helps you to empathize with our point of view.
Now, on to my Catholic brothers and sisters we have face up to the fact that many of these problems would be avoided if we as individuals and as a whole church put a higher priority on catechizing our own. When was the last time you saw a well versed Catholic convert? Conservative priests and parishioners who believe and live the life of our Lord will make all of this unnecessary. When we allow the light of our Lord Jesus Christ shine through our lives through morality, charity and prayer (and I’m as guilty of falling short as the next guy) then I think we’ll see most of our problems disappear.
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cubalibre
Guest
Many have commented on the poor state of catechesis in the USA. This makes poorly catechized Catholics much more susceptible to the arguments of cults like the JW and the mormons. Is the state of catechesis in Latin America as bad?
Saludos,
CubaLibre
Saludos,
CubaLibre
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rtconstant
Guest
I don’t really know about Latin America. I would venture though that much like rest of the world where Christianity has a long history it is probably treated as much as a cultural expression as a Faith. I can’t say for sure though.
Really, even protestants suffer from this as well. It becomes harder to tell for them though because if they move to another protestant church it really isn’t seen in the same light as becoming Catholic. The reality though is that the Church they were “raised in” failed to hold them.
I know my previous post may have sounded like I was really coming down on us Catholics but really Protestants are just as bad about educating their flocks. When I was a Baptist I was always running into people who didn’t even know basic things like what the Trinity was and such.
Really, even protestants suffer from this as well. It becomes harder to tell for them though because if they move to another protestant church it really isn’t seen in the same light as becoming Catholic. The reality though is that the Church they were “raised in” failed to hold them.
I know my previous post may have sounded like I was really coming down on us Catholics but really Protestants are just as bad about educating their flocks. When I was a Baptist I was always running into people who didn’t even know basic things like what the Trinity was and such.
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Caesar
Guest
One cannot teach this without discarding the idea that the Catholic Church is the Church of Christ. Of course, many so-called Catholics today would see such a thing as blasphemy.
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Mt_28_19_20
Guest
I think there is a lot of truth in what you said.
I go on mission trips with non-Catholic Christians and have seen some that think the Catholic Church is nonChristian, and some who believe there are Christians in the Catholic Church.
There are several reasons I go.
First, there is the opportunity to serve others.
There is also the opportunity to share the Gospel.
There is also the opportunity when colaboring with nonCatholic Christians to tear down some of the myths or false witness that circulates in some circles. However imperfectly I live and share my faith, seeing a Catholic wanting others to know Jesus Christ and what He accomplished for us, does work in tearing down misperceptions.
I am also grateful for my Protestant brothers and sisters in Christ.
They encouraged and taught me by example to share my faith.
They challenged me and taught me by example to take my faith more seriously. How I spend Sundays changed significantly after hearing a Protestant sermon on honoring the Sabbath.
They challenged me, which led me to embrace the Catholic faith so much more deeply and sincerely.
Even when we disagree, while some have cut off friendship as I became more Catholic, others are always there to encourage regardless of disagreements.
I respect that when we disagree, they often are able to articulate and defend what they believe, both in their own words, and with Scripture references. Ironically, it is often easier to have a thoughful discussion about Catholic theology with a Protestant friend or aquaintance than with the majority of Catholics I meet, as they generally seem more familiar with our Scripture than we often are. Then again, some of the renewal within the Catholic Church has been significantly influenced by converts from Protestant denominations, teaching us the depth of our Book.
May God continue to bless you,
Michael
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Mt_28_19_20
Guest
My experience has been primarily in Mexico, and the language barrier makes it difficult to say with any degree of accuracy. However, there does not seem to be a generally good articulation of Catholic faith in many of the towns I’ve been to. I have seen Catholics easily thrown because they do not know Scripture very well. One reason I continue to go, is that when I notice someone trying to evangelize a Catholic, it is easy to ask the next question to demonstrate that their faith is not works based, that they do not worship Mary, etc…, Unfortunately, sometimes they do give the impression of believing in a works based faith, and worship of Mary, thus leading Protestants to believe things about the Catholic Church due to the witness of “Catholics”
Michael
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steve_green_2
Guest
These missionaries know what they are doing before they get on a plane to Catholic countries.
Don’t tell me they just want to bring Jesus to them and let them be.
Russia is getting a nasty taste of what we Catholics have experienced for years in central and south americas.
[MODERATOR NOTE: Removed uncharitable term] Fundamentalist christians, pentecostals and mormons view Catholic as being wrong in our own church and want converts OUT of the Catholic Church plain and simple. Mormons just seem to be a little nicer about it.
Just remember Jesus didn’t have time to build churches and his church HAD to exist from 33AD or it never existed at all !!!
Don’t tell me they just want to bring Jesus to them and let them be.
Russia is getting a nasty taste of what we Catholics have experienced for years in central and south americas.
[MODERATOR NOTE: Removed uncharitable term] Fundamentalist christians, pentecostals and mormons view Catholic as being wrong in our own church and want converts OUT of the Catholic Church plain and simple. Mormons just seem to be a little nicer about it.
Just remember Jesus didn’t have time to build churches and his church HAD to exist from 33AD or it never existed at all !!!
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Contarini
Guest
Some do, some don’t. And of course part of the problem is defining just what “bringing Jesus” to someone means.
I fail to see how “Don’t tell me” is an argument or any kind of meaningful contribution to a discussion board. It is rather a declaration of one’s unwillingness to engage in real discussion!
Edwin
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Sixtus
Guest
Well said. An enemy to be challenged and defeated is complacency
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peary
Guest
Because those particular missionaries (and the communities to which they belong) do not believe that Hispanic Catholics (or any Catholic, for that matter) are saved. They believe that the Church is an apostate church.
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Hisalone
Guest
You know better than this.
To dig up a two year old thread and mutter such nonsense.
Many “Catholics” in latin america practice a hybrid religion one that mixes Chritianity with the pagan religion before it.
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PaulDupre
Guest
And many Evangelicals in America practice a hybrid religion, one that mixes a few bible verses with the philosophies of the New Age movement.
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