Why do non-Catholics try to use our Scriptures against us?

[chimera]

Yes, it is from Jesus and he names himself Christ and Jesus in chap.12. God is named and also Michael is. In this one description of the woman’s glory, she has no name or title, nor has the child who is the cause of her glory. “A woman” is not the way that a crowned queen of sun, stars and moon would be described, is it? Mary was named as mother on earth, and on 3 occasions Jesus spoke of or to her as a normal person on the same basis as other disciples. He said to her “What have I to do with you?”. She told people at John 2.5 to do what Jesus said. At his death, Jesus told John to take Mary to his house indicating that no special arrangements had been made for her position.
She evidently received the spirit at Pentecost with everyone else there, from Jesus. “The woman’s” name is not specified, but the activities of the heavens are.
chimer

 

[colliric]

Yes, it is from Jesus and he names himself Christ and Jesus in chap.12. God is named and also Michael is. In this one description of the woman’s glory, she has no name or title, nor has the child who is the cause of her glory. “A woman” is not the way that a crowned queen of sun, stars and moon would be described, is it? Mary was named as mother on earth, and on 3 occasions Jesus spoke of or to her as a normal person on the same basis as other disciples. He said to her “What have I to do with you?”. She told people at John 2.5 to do what Jesus said. At his death, Jesus told John to take Mary to his house indicating that no special arrangements had been made for her position.
She evidently received the spirit at Pentecost with everyone else there, from Jesus. “The woman’s” name is not specified, but the activities of the heavens are.
chimer

Actually it is quite specified Right here that her son ascended into heaven to assume his own throne:

“And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod: and her son was taken up to God, and to his throne.”

“To his throne” equates to that Man child having been Christ who ascended to his throne in heaven. Christ rules all nations with an iron rod.

Therefore this woman having been his mother, was Mary.

Lets recall that the bible was not written in Chapters. What verse comes before chapter 12?

it is this:
And the temple of God was opened in heaven: and the ark of his testament was seen in his temple, and there were lightnings, and voices, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Mary was the new Ark of the new covernant.

Also what are you talking about “special arangements”? All christ said was “Woman this is your son, Son this is your mother”, he commanded John to take care of her and to protect her from the persecution that Christ knew was coming, John took her away from the violence in Jerusalem when Rome came and quashed Jewish revolt in 60AD, or he took her away earlier when the Jewish people were persecuting christians themselves. Jesus saying to her “woman this is your son”, was him telling her that she must go with John who would care for her.

It seems to me like this was a commandment to take care of the mother of god, It seems to me Jesus knew what he was doing, after all he speaks of Peter’s execution during the last supper, and also said “till this generation has passed” indicating his knowledge of the violent times that current generation was about to face. He knew that mary would be the center of attention for these violent people and that they would chase her(in fact this passage of revelations talks directly about that) and he knew that under the care of the Apostle John who left Jerusalem, She would be safe until the end of her earthly life. Then God would allow her to be received directly into heaven and she would be saved from the persecution of the Christians by Rome and the Jewish people, and indirectly persecution from Satan.

The true story here is really one of what will happen to all faithfull and very human followers, who are all her children(“son this is your mother” he’s saying that to all of us Christians) as they are also the Father’s children.

 

[chimera]

Neither the woman or child are named, but by presuming that one is either Jesus or Mary, then the other one is being identified without proof. In Rev 21 new Jerusalem is a bride for the husband, so there are more “women” than just 1. As Jesus prepared places for the apostles, there are more than 1 man there also. They follow Jesus in his battle of the “iron rod”, and “sword”. At Jesus’ death, no special arrangements were in place to glorify Mary. Her going to John’s house was not a particularly prestigious position for her, from Jesus . He left earth with Mary not being a center of attention, from his statements.
chimera

 

[colliric]

Neither the woman or child are named, but by presuming that one is either Jesus or Mary, then the other one is being identified without proof. In Rev 21 new Jerusalem is a bride for the husband, so there are more “women” than just 1. As Jesus prepared places for the apostles, there are more than 1 man there also. They follow Jesus in his battle of the “iron rod”, and “sword”. At Jesus’ death, no special arrangements were in place to glorify Mary. Her going to John’s house was not a particularly prestigious position for her, from Jesus . He left earth with Mary not being a center of attention, from his statements.
chimera

Sorry but Revelations 21 has nothing to do with this passage at all, unless all women are the new “ark of the covernant”. This is a specific narrative referring to a specific woman and her child. This is a typical Protestant response to hard to answer arguements. You are trying to dance around the passage.

Also how can we presume to know what Jesus had planned for Mary, all he told John to do was to be her Son… actually he didn’t tell him that at all, he said “Son this is your mother” in a very matter of factual way as if because she was Christ’s mother, she is mother of all Christians. His statement “this is your mother:” is his recognition of her being the Mother of all, he does not say “son look after he like she was your mother” but he says “Son this IS your mother” just like he refers God “the Father”.

He left her specifically in the care of John, who left Jerusalem to go into exile as it crumbled under Rome’s trampling feet. Are you saying that Jesus disn’t care about the wellbeing of his own mother when he told her to listen and care for “your son”? He provided for her and he protected her from persecution.

Sorry but there is really no other interpretation of the passage, Jesus knew about what would happen to all the apostles EXCEPT JOHN and made sure Mary went with him!

why do some protestants insist on insulting Jesus by saying he didn’t give a **** about his own earthly mother?

 

[DB_AND_ALI]

Because so many of our Catholic brothers and sisters are so badly indoctrinated that these non-Catholics can get away with it. And many Catholics do not read the Bible, therefore, cannot use the Bible to defend their faith… I’ve seen so many JWs who were Catholics, it makes me wonder what in the world they were taught that they had to leave the one True faith.

Cradle-catholics are not taught how to defend the faith against protestant folk who ‘catch us out’ by their endless , often out of context quotations of bible passages. As i am a little older now i feel much less intimidated…especially after reading info. on how , for example , a catholic should enter into debate with a JW. The key is not to try and counteract their arguement on a point of debate IF you are unsure of the catholic viewpoint. I just admit it when i can’t answer a question/point…BUT i always tell the other person that i will find out and come back to them ! Really folks we have nothing to worry about , especially with the tools at our disposal : the www ; writings by Scott Hahn and naturally the bible itself !!! Strangely enough i have found that the main things protestants struggle with in catholicism are IN THE BIBLE ; E.G. the real presence , priestly confession , peter given the keys…ect.ect. We must never stop talking to our protestant brothers…who knows where HE may lead us !!!

 

[blessings123]

As a non Catholic I think I can answer this question even though I personally don’t use the bible against folks, I just don’t know it well enough.

A lot of my fellow Atheists use scriptures against folks like you because thats all a lot of you know. At least thats true for the Christians who come harass us on atheist forums. We ask for sources other than your scriptures to back up “scientific facts” that they present…and time and time again all we get is more verses from the bible. Yes, the Christian that come on the atheist forums to harass us are typically pretty dumb, you guys don’t seem nearly as bad. Also, your beliefs are rooted in your scriptures so it only makes sense that we use those to try to make at least you see where we’re coming from.

Not to offend any of you, I don’t mean offence at all…thats just what I’ve observed and experienced.

Hi there,

Do atheists really use scripture to disprove God?

There is this show called Finding God through faith and reason:
Fr. Robert Spitzer, S.J., Ph.D., lends insight into new evidence gathered from the fields of contemporary philosophy and physics which supports proof for the existence of God. The universe itself connotes the existence of a creator and the principle of intelligent design leads to logical conclusions about the nature of God.

It is really fascinating.

 

[colliric]

Cradle-catholics are not taught how to defend the faith against protestant folk who ‘catch us out’ by their endless , often out of context quotations of bible passages. As i am a little older now i feel much less intimidated…especially after reading info. on how , for example , a catholic should enter into debate with a JW. The key is not to try and counteract their arguement on a point of debate IF you are unsure of the catholic viewpoint. I just admit it when i can’t answer a question/point…BUT i always tell the other person that i will find out and come back to them ! Really folks we have nothing to worry about , especially with the tools at our disposal : the www ; writings by Scott Hahn and naturally the bible itself !!! Strangely enough i have found that the main things protestants struggle with in catholicism are IN THE BIBLE ; E.G. the real presence , priestly confession , peter given the keys…ect.ect. We must never stop talking to our protestant brothers…who knows where HE may lead us !!!

I also find they(protestants and some Cradle Catholics) don’t have an adequate understanding of the history of first century Jerusalem and of Jesus prophercy power, they tend to take it very out of context, especially with their interpretation of what Jesus said to Mary and John which to early Christians and church fathers was interpreted to mean that Jesus naturally knew John was the only apostle who would live a full natural life, and sending Mary to live with him was to make sure she didn’t suffer in Jerusalem as the Romans rammed it into the dirt(something else Jesus knew about when he said “until this generation passes”)… That flies in the face of their “He didn’t put her in a position of importance” interpretation.

 

[colliric]

Hi there,

Do atheists really use scripture to disprove God?

There is this show called Finding God through faith and reason:
Fr. Robert Spitzer, S.J., Ph.D., lends insight into new evidence gathered from the fields of contemporary philosophy and physics which supports proof for the existence of God. The universe itself connotes the existence of a creator and the principle of intelligent design leads to logical conclusions about the nature of God.

It is really fascinating.

yes, I’ve heard athiests use scripture … the reason is that of cause they use it to try to point out inconsistencies between faith and science. A passage which is a favorite of theirs is when Joshua stopped the Sun.

Of cause they don’t understand that the authors wrote quite metaphorically, or wrote down incidents sincerely from their own perspective. I tend to think of that incident as meaning the day was really really hot, therefore it seemed longer and also the sun was simply in the sky longer because it was one of the longest days of the year, this doesn’t take any of God’s thunder, he scheduled it to occur and be in complete harmony with the battle so that Joshua would win. One of the reasons I think they don’t get this is because they are often attacking fundamentalist protestant Christians and KJV-onlyists.

 

[blessings123]

I also find they(protestants and some Cradle Catholics) don’t have an adequate understanding of the history of first century Jerusalem and of Jesus prophercy power, they tend to take it very out of context, especially with their interpretation of what Jesus said to Mary and John which to early Christians and church fathers was interpreted to mean that Jesus naturally knew John was the only apostle who would live a full natural life, and sending Mary to live with him was to make sure she didn’t suffer in Jerusalem as the Romans rammed it into the dirt(something else Jesus knew about when he said “until this generation passes”)… That flies in the face of their “He didn’t put her in a position of importance” interpretation.

That is really interesting. Could you provide a site or book. I’d like to learn more about this.

 

[Chancellare]

Cradle-catholics are not taught how to defend the faith against protestant folk who ‘catch us out’ by their endless , often out of context quotations of bible passages. As i am a little older now i feel much less intimidated…especially after reading info. on how , for example , a catholic should enter into debate with a JW. The key is not to try and counteract their arguement on a point of debate IF you are unsure of the catholic viewpoint. I just admit it when i can’t answer a question/point…BUT i always tell the other person that i will find out and come back to them ! Really folks we have nothing to worry about , especially with the tools at our disposal : the www ; writings by Scott Hahn and naturally the bible itself !!! Strangely enough i have found that the main things protestants struggle with in catholicism are IN THE BIBLE ; E.G. the real presence , priestly confession , peter given the keys…ect.ect. We must never stop talking to our protestant brothers…who knows where HE may lead us !!!

I’m not sure what people mean by cradle-Catholics. But cradle or not, those who became non-Catholics later in their lives may not have been good Catholics to begin with which made them lose their faith easily to other sects. If one knows the true faith, no amount of Bible-quoting argument can change the truth. Those who lose their Catholic faith just on the words of glib-talking proselytizers don’t deserve to be Catholics anyway. No?

 

[dessert]

yes, I’ve heard athiests use scripture … the reason is that of cause they use it to try to point out inconsistencies between faith and science. A passage which is a favorite of theirs is when Joshua stopped the Sun.

Of cause they don’t understand that the authors wrote quite metaphorically, or wrote down incidents sincerely from their own perspective. I tend to think of that incident as meaning the day was really really hot, therefore it seemed longer and also the sun was simply in the sky longer because it was one of the longest days of the year, this doesn’t take any of God’s thunder, he scheduled it to occur and be in complete harmony with the battle so that Joshua would win. One of the reasons I think they don’t get this is because they are often attacking fundamentalist protestant Christians and KJV-onlyists.

Yeah my dad is an atheist so he says and he critizies like Jimmy swaggart all the time and the others but he doesn’t WATCH EWTN but he doesn’t critizize the Holy Fahter ither but does a little and he thinks he knows a lot of bible but doesn’t have the right knowledge> dessert

 

[colliric]

That is really interesting. Could you provide a site or book. I’d like to learn more about this.

“The Rapture: The end times error that leaves the bible behind”

This book goes into the entire topic of what exactly is the book of the apocalypse’s prophecy. From the Catholic point of view of cause.

It’s by David Curie.

Also Karl Keating’s “Catholocism and Fundamentalism” presents this point of view in it’s Marian beliefs chapter for apologists to use. Thats where I read it and it’s a quite substantial arguement that Karl presents in that chapter.

 

[daro2096]

The Catholic Church existed before time. See Ephesians 1: 1-5. She wrote the Scriptures by the power of the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

If the Catholic Church isn’t the Church there simply is no Church.

CDL

Ephesians 1: 1-5 says:

Eph 1:1 ¶ Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace [be] to you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 ¶ Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Nowhere does it say the Holy Spirit is a she.

 

[daro2096]

Mary was the new ark of the Covenant, the second eve and created in the same manner as all human beings are, but god filled her with grace at her birth so that she could be worthy of birthing his son, Christ. That is the simple answer, and in order to make this point clear to john he needed to see her once again as she was in heaven, and once again see the events of the past played out in front of him so he could finally understand her complete role in the events, as defined completely by God. She was God’s new Ark of the covenant.

Sorry but that does not go against Matthew 28:18 in any way at all… this “replay” was for the benefit of John’s understanding of why and how God used Mary and what happened to Mary after she was taken away.

Mary was just a sinner like everybody else. Jesus was protected from sin because he had no human father. The orignal sin is passed on by the father. Mary didn’t have to be made sinless.

 

[daro2096]

“Sorry but that does not go against Matthew 28:18 in any way at all… this “replay” was for the benefit of John’s understanding of why and how God used Mary and what happened to Mary after she was taken away.”
That would make Mary just a woman who has an ordinary child who dies, like any other child who is said to go to heaven. My q. was why did the woman have such total coronation (sun,moon,stars) leaving no symbol for the child? Even the 7 congregations that Jesus earlier described were “lampstands” and they were mortal men. Jesus there said he was “prince (Greek “arkon”) of the kings of the earth”. Jesus had conquered Satan by the time he ascended to heaven, so why does it say he was “snatched, caught” away from the dragon which was about to devour him?

First the woman in Revelation 12 is not Mary but the OT Church. When Jesus was born Satan tried to kill him through Herod who had all the baby boys under 2 years old killed but Jesus and his family fled to Egypt. After his resurrection Jesus went to heaven.

The woman then had to flee into the wilderness for 1260 prophetic days to escape the persercutions of Satan.

The church that Jesus set up before he went to heaven had to go underground during the Papal persercutions for 1260 years. The church fled to the wilderness and Satan spue water out of his mouth after the woman but the earth helped the woman and opened its mouth and swallowed the water. The true church came out of hiding after 1798 in the USA.

Water and sea in Bible prophecy is nations, multi-tudes, peoples and tongues(see Revelation 17:15).

A woman in Bible prophecy is a church. I have compared the daughter of Zion to be a comely and delicate bride.

Jer 6:2 I have likened the daughter of Zion to a comely and delicate [woman].

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Ephesians 1: 1-5 says:

Eph 1:1 ¶ Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace [be] to you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 ¶ Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Nowhere does it say the Holy Spirit is a she.

Welcome to the forum.

I think you are confused about my post.

Concerning your comments about the next two responses I believe that the more you research the truth the more you will understand that the Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ really is the subject of the Rev. 12 passage. Keep studying.

CDL

 

[daro2096]

Welcome to the forum.

I think you are confused about my post.

Concerning your comments about the next two responses I believe that the more you research the truth the more you will understand that the Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ really is the subject of the Rev. 12 passage. Keep studying.

CDL

I know the Roman Catholic Church is Mystery Babylon the Great the Mother of all harlots and abominations of the Earth.

Isn’t the Catholic Church called the Mother Church? Doesn’t she consider all the Protestant Churches to be her daughters? Hasn’t she murdered millions of Christians because they chose to worship God according to the Bible?

The Vatican sits on the city of seven hills.

 

[colliric]

Mary was just a sinner like everybody else. Jesus was protected from sin because he had no human father. The orignal sin is passed on by the father. Mary didn’t have to be made sinless.

Are you saying the Holy Spirit would pick just any human being?

If it did, What the heck made Mary “full of grace” or if you will “highly favoured”? there were argubally women as full of faith as she was, why was she picked and why was she the favoured or filled with Grace? according to you she was jsut a normal human being… nothing special.

I don’t agree simply because it is rather derogatory of God’s power to suggest he didn’t make sure the woman he used was birthed sinless. You get seeds to grow by putting them in fertile land, and you put the best seed in the best cultivated soil. God put his seed in the best possible soil he knew would ever appear on the land. Perfect fruit bearing seed requires Perfect soil to nurture it and guide it’s growth, which is something Mary did, and when Joseph died, she did it alone. Christ, as a human child, developed like any other human being and like every other human being required his mother’s assistance. It was not until His baptism that he had developed enough to take up his father’s mission as his father’s son.

Mary was therefore sinless that is why she was the only woman ever in history to birth Christ, because she was the first sinless woman since Eve ate the fruit and was therefore full of grace or as protestants would say was “highly favoured”.

 

[daro2096]

Are you saying the Holy Spirit would pick just any human being?

If it did, What the heck made Mary “full of grace” or if you will “highly favoured”? there were argubally women as full of faith as she was, why was she picked and why was she the favoured or filled with Grace? according to you she was jsut a normal human being… nothing special.

I don’t agree simply because it is rather derogatory of God’s power to suggest he didn’t make sure the woman he used was birthed sinless. You get seeds to grow by putting them in fertile land, and you put the best seed in the best cultivated soil. God put his seed in the best possible soil he knew would ever appear on the land. Perfect fruit bearing seed requires Perfect soil to nurture it and guide it’s growth, which is something Mary did, and when Joseph died, she did it alone. Christ, as a human child, developed like any other human being and like every other human being required his mother’s assistance. It was not until His baptism that he had developed enough to take up his father’s mission as his father’s son.

Mary was therefore sinless that is why she was the only woman ever in history to birth Christ, because she was the first sinless woman since Eve ate the fruit and was therefore full of grace or as protestants would say was “highly favoured”.

She was a God fearing woman. She wasn’t sinless. God chose her because she was related to King David.

If Mary was sinless then what was the point of Jesus coming to earth? Mary could have been our sub sacifice instead.

Jesus knew who he was from a very young age. Jesus existed before he became a baby. He was with the hebrews who were thrown into the fire in Daniel 3.

 

[daro2096]

The Roman Catholic Church is based on Pagan religion and it dates back to Babylon. Why do your priests wear the hat of Dagon the fish god?

The Catholic Church hijacked the Scriptures and denied them to the common man. For centuries man had to relie on the priest to tell him what God said. The common man wasn’t allowed to have Scriptures. If someone was caught giving out tracts of Bible they were burned at the stake.

The great reformers tried to change the Catholic Church. Luther didn’t want to leave the church but wanted to reform it, bring it back to the Bible but Babylon will not be healed and so he came out and said the Bible and the Bible alone is our standard.

Jesus said in vain do they worship me teaching the commandments of men.