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GregoryPalamas
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Angainor
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Right. Illustrate that.
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GregoryPalamas
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Angainor,
I guess your remarks are cute in some strange way. Do you plan to post anything for discussion or are you just fooling around?
CDL
I guess your remarks are cute in some strange way. Do you plan to post anything for discussion or are you just fooling around?
CDL
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Angainor
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I happen to think Lutheran Protestants never “decided they were not catholic” and never took action themselves to split from the Church catholic.
That is getting off-topic however.
If by “our Scriptures” you mean “the Bible”, the Bible is pre-reformation and therefore not exclusively Roman Catholic.
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GregoryPalamas
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Your arrogant assertion neither makes any sense nor is it appropos. You do assert that Lutherans wish to be Catholic. So, join the Catholic Church. Is there any evidence at all, except for your cute assertion that the Catholic Church did not exist before Trent, that the Lutheran groups actually want to be Catholic?
CDL
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Angainor
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Lutheran groups think they are catholic, and always have been.
Evidence? Wikipedia isn’t authoritative, but I didn’t write this so obviously somebody thinks Lutherans think they are catholic.Lutherans see themselves as “a reform movement within the greater Church catholic.”
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GregoryPalamas
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Why does it matter what a person thinks is true as long as it is demonstably untrue? If someone thinks that the moon is made of green cheese but can not demonstrate it why should the claiment be taken seriously?
CDL
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Angainor
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You asked if “Lutherans wish to be Catholic”. I answered the only way I know. They think they already are (So obviously the answer to your question is yes, they do wish to be catholic). If it is so demonstrably untrue, feel free to demonstrate it. That is what I asked earlier.
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Chancellare
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That’s great! That means you agree to change name from Lutheran to Catholic at Trent!That makes some sense. That means “Lutheran” might be far older than I thought!
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GregoryPalamas
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It is demonstrably untrue by the simple fact that Lutherans estblished a separate and competing church to the one true Church. If the Lutherans were truely Catholic they would find a way to actually become Catholic in reality and not just in their wishful thinking.
If you wish to discuss Trent then start a thread. That could be fun.
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Angainor
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You say “separate”, we say our church is “within” the greater Church catholic.
If “Catholics” truly want Lutherans to be “Catholic” it wouldn’t take much. Well, there would have to be a boatload of “anathemas” from Trent recanted. Papists burned a lot of bridges from 1545-1563 (there is a pun in there for the (very) perceptive).
Not my idea of fun.
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cleargospel99
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I think Lutherans are catholic as are most other mainline Protestant groups as well as the Orthodox, that believe in the Trinity, the diety and humanity of Christ, the fact of the ressurrection, the truth of the Gospel.
These are the things that are the distinctives of Catholic Christianity.
That is why all who claim Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior are welcome to participate without exception in the Lord’s Supper at our church.
The Holy Scriptures are God’s Word, for us to proclaim. It is not our private property, we are not allowed to change, edit or evaluate it. It is the foundational truth for all things.
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cg99
These are the things that are the distinctives of Catholic Christianity.
That is why all who claim Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior are welcome to participate without exception in the Lord’s Supper at our church.
The Holy Scriptures are God’s Word, for us to proclaim. It is not our private property, we are not allowed to change, edit or evaluate it. It is the foundational truth for all things.
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cg99
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JoeyWarren
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So the verse takes this context:
**
, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.**
**Build a church upon a church? **
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GregoryPalamas
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Easy to say. But it doesn’t mean anything. Do you trace your anscestory back to those other Protestants, the Albigensians, or is it back to the Gnostics?
What amazes me on the poll about Protestant anscestory is the continual claim that Protestants are the real Catholic, or the real Christians, but no one can trace their anscestory back to Christ and the Apostles. It must have started someplace.
CDL
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cleargospel99
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My ancestry is irrelevant. I have descended from a long line of sinners. But I know this:
Luke 3:7-9
7John said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 9The axe is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.”
Consider me one of those stones.
John 10:15-17
15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. **16I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. **17The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again.
I’m one of the ‘other’ sheep.
Gregory,
If you really want to make the argument on the basis of church history, you have to remember that all the great “Protestants” were also Catholic priests (Luther, Calvin, Tyndale, Wycliffe to name just a few.) Historically your heritage is our heritage, up to the Council of Trent.
Ask yourself this. Why was Luther so influencial if God was not directing his actions?
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cg99
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Angainor
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The Confession of Faith which was submitted to His Imperial Majesty Charles V at the Diet of Augsburg in the year 1530 by certain princes and cities
I will speak of thy testimonies before kings, and will not be put to shame.
Psalm 119:46
Preface to the Emperor Charles V.
…2] and then also concerning dissensions in the matter of our holy religion and Christian Faith, that in this matter of religion the opinions and judgments of the parties might be heard in each other’s presence; and considered and weighed 3] among ourselves in mutual charity, leniency, and kindness, in order that, after the removal and correction of such things as have been treated and understood in a different manner in the writings on either side, these matters may be settled and brought back to one simple truth and Christian concord, 4] that for the future one pure and true religion may be embraced and maintained by us, that as we all are under one Christ and do battle under Him, so we may be able also to live in unity and concord in the one Christian Church.
And inasmuch as we, the undersigned Elector and 5] Princes, with others joined with us, have been called to the aforesaid Diet the same as the other Electors, Princes, and Estates, in obedient compliance with the Imperial mandate, we have promptly come to Augsburg, and—what we do not mean to say as boasting—we were among the first to be here…
21] If the outcome, therefore, should be such that the differences between us and the other parties in the matter of religion should not be amicably and in charity settled, then here, before Your Imperial Majesty we make the offer in all obedience, in addition to what we have already done, that we will all appear and defend our cause in such a general, free Christian Council, for the convening of which there has always been accordant action and agreement of votes in all the Imperial Diets held during Your Majesty’s reign, on the part of the Electors, Princes, and other Estates of the Empire…
The whole preface to Emperor Charles V is a good read.
Background: The Emperor called the Diet of Augsburg in hopes of restoring Christian unity. The Lutherans brought a prepared statement of Christian faith, the Augsburg Confession. Their adversaries did not have a prepared statement of faith of their own to debate but instead prepared a rebuttal of the Augsburg Confession called the Confutation. The Confutation was read aloud to the assembly, but the Lutherans were not given a written copy. Nevertheless, the Lutherans were expected to simply accept it. The adversaries chose not to participate in the free Christian Council offered by the Lutherans.
Lutheran stenographers recorded the Confutation as it was read and published a response.
The Confutation was eventually published by the adversaries 43 years later (well after the adversaries formally adopted the Confutation’s conclusions at Trent–thanks for nothin’).
Trent was a council, but not the free Christian Council the Lutherans were hoping for it was a council by the adversaries for the adversaries.
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Chancellare
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I would not count on the likes of Luther, Calvin, Tyndale, etc., if I were you. They may have the best intentions but they broke off from the Church and proliferated the thousands of denominations who cannot agree among themselves which is which.
Remember, Lucifer was the smartest of all angels before he broke off. So was Judas. And they all thought they were right when they did what they did.
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cleargospel99
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How is it part of God’s plan that their ideas have prospered against impossible odds?
Remember the words of the Pharisee Gamaliel
Acts 5:38-39
38Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. 39But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God."
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Spirithound
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We can use that logic to validate Hinduism, which has been around for 6000 years. Islam, similarly, 1500 years. Lutheranism and Anglicanism are only about 500 years old, and most denominations are even younger. Let’s see who’s still around 1000 years from now.
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