Why do non-Catholics try to use our Scriptures against us?

[Chancellare]

How is it part of God’s plan that their ideas have prospered against impossible odds?

Remember the words of the Pharisee Gamaliel
Acts 5:38-39
38Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. 39But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God."

I wouldn’t count on the Gamaliel rule either, if I were you because:

That verse refers to the apostles who were clearly acting on the basis of Christ’s direct teachings and even Gamaliel saw what was going on. The same apostles were acting on the basis of Christ’s ORAL teachings and passed on their ORAL traditions and teachings to the future generation of Christians. These ORAL traditions and teachings later became Holy Traditions and Holy Scriptures of the Church founded by Christ. The same ORAL traditions that Luther later on repudiated and the same Scriptures he later on censored down into 66 books. So how can Gamaliel’s rule refer to the repudiator and censor of the events he witnessed?

Clearly Gamaliel did not contemplate the Protestant schism when he saw the works of the Apostles. That would over-extend the meaning of this verse to absurdity.

 

[cleargospel99]

The same ORAL traditions that Luther later on repudiated and the same Scriptures he later on censored down into 66 books.

This is an unsupported assertion that has no factual basis and only serves to perpetuate religious bigotry.

I may be mistaken, but it is my understanding that the Roman Church holds to the material sufficiency of the scripture and that there is no “secret knowledge” of the Apostles handed down that was not captured by their writings.

Certainly nothing in the Oral tradition would contradict that which already exists in the written one.

Let’s be clear about what Luther taught. He did not teach Scripture was the only rule of faith, but he did say it was the only infallible rule of faith. Because it is God-breathed.

Tradition outside of the Holy Scripture does not hold the same status, because God’s Revelation is complete.

Tradition has value in support of the written Word of God, but only to the point where it does not negate or overrule the Word of God. Just as Jesus taught in Matthew 15, Mark 7, Luke 16:19-31; Matthew 23; Matthew 22:29.

 

[Chancellare]

This is an unsupported assertion that has no factual basis and only serves to perpetuate religious bigotry.

Read the “95 Theses” of Luther and the teachings of Calvin, Tyndale, Wycliffe, etc. and let’s talk about “unsupported assertions and bigotry”.You may also review the recorded massacres perpetrated by Calvinists in France.

I may be mistaken, but it is my understanding that the Roman Church holds to the material sufficiency of the scripture

No. That’s Sola Scriptura. Never in the Bible will you find the word “sufficient”. That’s the single most literal reason why Sola Scriptura is unbiblical but many have turned selectively blind on that.

Certainly nothing in the Oral tradition would contradict that which already exists in the written one.

Rephrase: “Holy Tradition”
That’s what the Magisterium has been teaching all along. Hey, we have agreement!

Let’s be clear about what Luther taught. He did not teach Scripture was the only rule of faith, but he did say it was the only infallible rule of faith. Because it is God-breathed.

But that was not what Calvin, Tyndale and the rest of the denominations taught. Luther could not stop the many other “personal revelations” by other protestant preachers who mushroomed outside of the Magisterium.

Tradition outside of the Holy Scripture does not hold the same status, because God’s Revelation is complete.

Magisterium is talking about Holy Tradition, not tradition of men. We are not talking about same thing.

 

[dessert]

My ancestry is irrelevant. I have descended from a long line of sinners. But I know this:

Luke 3:7-9

7John said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 9The axe is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.”

Consider me one of those stones.

John 10:15-17
15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. **16I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. **17The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again.

I’m one of the ‘other’ sheep.

Gregory,
If you really want to make the argument on the basis of church history, you have to remember that all the great “Protestants” were also Catholic priests (Luther, Calvin, Tyndale, Wycliffe to name just a few.) Historically your heritage is our heritage, up to the Council of Trent.

Ask yourself this. Why was Luther so influencial if God was not directing his actions?
v/r
cg99

So was Mennon a Catholic priest and turned his back on his vows and the Catholic Church.
They turned their back on their heritage and walked away.
How can you say a heritage is a heritage and then say it ain’t no more and still claim it? Dessert

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Ask yourself this. Why was Luther so influencial if God was not directing his actions?

For the same reasons that Bonaparte, Hitler, and Stalin were popular. Do you think God was directing their actions?

CDL

 

[St_Violet]

Hello, forgive me if my statements and questions may sound ignorant,

but as I was learning about Martin Luther, it really seems obvious to me that Martin Luther was really a grumpy man and kinda cockie and arrogant and infact he was the kinda guy that you have to agree with 100% to get along with him… am I right or wrong?

Also, I heard that he confessed the doctrine he has taught on his death bed?.. is this true?

Also, I heard that he apologized for the statements he has made about the jews in his writing called " the Jews and Their Lies", I have been trying to find this out but had no luck.

Last one , is it true that he encouraged the nobility (i believe they were called) to torture and kill the peasants during the peasant war because it embarassed him?

sorry about these questions, I saw that we got on the topic about Martin Luther when I just finihed researching about him 5 mins ago and I wanted to get some of these questions cleared up.

 

[cleargospel99]

Ask yourself this. Why was Luther so influencial if God was not directing his actions?

For the same reasons that Bonaparte, Hitler, and Stalin were popular. Do you think God was directing their actions?

CDL

Gregory,

That is an interesting question. What do you think? I have always understood that God was all powerful, all knowing, and everywhere. Can anything happen outside the sovereign Will of God Almighty?

Your servant,
cg99

 

[Spirithound]

Gregory,

That is an interesting question. What do you think? I have always understood that God was all powerful, all knowing, and everywhere. Can anything happen outside the sovereign Will of God Almighty?

Outside of the permissive will of God? No.
Outside of the positive will of God? YES.

 

[cleargospel99]

Outside of the permissive will of God? No.
Outside of the positive will of God? YES.

Would you care to elaborate?

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Gregory,

That is an interesting question. What do you think? I have always understood that God was all powerful, all knowing, and everywhere. Can anything happen outside the sovereign Will of God Almighty?

Your servant,
cg99

God allows evil to happen for purposes often beyond our discernment. He is not Himself the author of evil. Evil is a choice to reject God. He allows this because He gives free will…even the free will to reject Him. Outside of the New Birth in Baptism we are enslaved to sin and death. With the New Birth in Baptism our humanity has been restored. We are free to choose life or death.

The Enlightenment was and is a choice of darkness and death to a great extent. The splintering of the Church is a choice of darkness and death which leaves wide open the door to cynicism and governments based not upon submission to God but upon pure lust for power.

Perhaps I will start a new thread on “The Enlightenment: The Real Dark Ages” if I have time.

CDL

 

[Spirithound]

God allows evil to happen for purposes often beyond our discernment…

Thanks Gregory!

 

[cleargospel99]

Are you saying it is possible for a man to thwart the will of God?

Can you give an example, maybe from the Scripture perhaps?

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Are you saying it is possible for a man to thwart the will of God?

Can you give an example, maybe from the Scripture perhaps?

No, it is not possible to thwart the will of God in the ultimate sense. It is possible to disobey God and cause tremendous harm against the will of God, but His will cannot finally be thwarted. God is not the author of evil. Yet, He allows it for a time.

Revelation 6-7 portrays this truth. “How long” the martyrs ask, “will you hold back Your vengence against those persecuting the brothers and sisters?” The Lord gives them a robe bleached bright in the blood of the Lamb so that their blood is mingled with Christs and gives them each a crown and adds, “Not long. When the number of those who are to suffer is fulfilled.”

CDL

 

[Spirithound]

No, it is not possible to thwart the will of God in the ultimate sense. It is possible to disobey God and cause tremendous harm against the will of God, but His will cannot finally be thwarted. God is not the author of evil. Yet, He allows it for a time.

Revelation 6-7 portrays this truth. “How long” the martyrs ask, “will you hold back Your vengence against those persecuting the brothers and sisters?” The Lord gives them a robe bleached bright in the blood of the Lamb so that their blood is mingled with Christs and gives them each a crown and adds, “Not long. When the number of those who are to suffer is fulfilled.”

CDL

If we were to say that God actively wills everything that happens, then we would have to conclude that everything is good. Certainly, good can be drawn out of most things, but it is equally certain that even better things could be drawn out of truly good things.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

If we were to say that God actively wills everything that happens, then we would have to conclude that everything is good. Certainly, good can be drawn out of most things, but it is equally certain that even better things could be drawn out of truly good things.

One must account for the fact that our free will has been restored with the work of Christ. God will draw all his baptized children home in His time but we go through tests. We excercise our free will. But eventually His will is all that matters but He woos us with His love.

If we don’t keep those truths in tension we will be unable to account for the suffering and the intentional evil that exists.

E.g., The Lord allowed me to wander in Protestantism most of my life. As you indicate He brought good out of evil. But He did also let me wander in the wilderness. Eight years ago I finally succumbed to His wooing and became Catholic.

CDL

 

[cleargospel99]

Romans 8:28

“And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.”

If we know that “all things work for good”, then that would include things which we might presently view as evil. Like Joseph’s brothers selling him into slavery. Right?

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Romans 8:28

“And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.”

If we know that “all things work for good”, then that would include things which we might presently view as evil. Like Joseph’s brothers selling him into slavery. Right?

Yes, but with this caveat. It was stupid and evil of the brothers to do what they did even though God knew and directed the final outcome. It’s sort of like Satan’s situation. Why does he continue to rebel even though he knows that he is lost? CS Lewis’ study of that question in his famous Screwtape Letters is most insightful.

Thank you for a pleasent conversation.

CDL

 

[St_Violet]

thanks for helping me get my questions cleared up:shrug:

 

[cleargospel99]

What I don’t understand is how anything can happen outside the Will of God.

Scripture teaches that “all things work together for good”, which would necessarily include evil things.

Even Satan, a created being, created for destruction has a purpose in the divine plan, does he not? Can he accomplish anything that God has not purposed.

That is, if God has a purpose, who can thwart his purpose, for He is the Almighty.

My point is this: According to the Scripture there exists NO element of chance in the universe, everything is under God’s direct control.

If there does exist one element of randomness outside the will of God, then God would not be the God Almighty He claims to be in the Bible, but only God very mighty or kinda mighty.

 

[Spirithound]

What I don’t understand is how anything can happen outside the Will of God.

Scripture teaches that “all things work together for good”, which would necessarily include evil things.

Nothing does happen outside of the Will of God, however, we see different “types” of His will. Firstly, there is His positive will. This encompasses the things that God wants to happen to us. However, there is also His permissive will. This means that even though God could possibly run the universe like a big train set, He doesn’t. He allows us to have free will, and to engage in activities that are damaging to ourselves.
Think of the ultimate bad thing: hell. God does not desire any of us to go to hell. Nothing about being in hell could possibly be the least bit good but he allows us to choose it.