Why do non-Catholics try to use our Scriptures against us?

[cleargospel99]

Nothing does happen outside of the Will of God, however, we see different “types” of His will. Firstly, there is His positive will. This encompasses the things that God wants to happen to us. However, there is also His permissive will. This means that even though God could possibly run the universe like a big train set, He doesn’t. He allows us to have free will, and to engage in activities that are damaging to ourselves.
Think of the ultimate bad thing: hell. God does not desire any of us to go to hell. Nothing about being in hell could possibly be the least bit good but he allows us to choose it.

Think about what you just said. If you have free will, then your choice to do evil is done outside the scope of God’s governing Will that controls the universe.

But, the consequence of your decision to do evil impacts the universe, not just yourself, so you have a universal chain reaction of uncontrolled events starting with the originating act of “allowed” disobedience.

Now you have to multiply the affect a billions of times, going back many generations, the permeutations are virtually infinite, because according to scripture (all have sinned).

If all the constant sinning, which impacts not only the sinner but all those other victims, then virtually everything that happens, must happen outside the Will of God.

But if we believe that, then how can we simultaneously assert that God is in control, and “everything works together for good”?

If you follow your premise to its conclusion, then random chance must rule and God is not near, but at a distance, observing but not interfering.

Can Satan, or anyone else for that matter, thwart God’s absolute purpose?

(If you are wondering what this has to do with the original thread…
The answer to my question should be fairly straight forward for anyone familiar with the text of the scripture.)

For example: Isaiah 55:11

 

[Spirithound]

Think about what you just said. If you have free will, then your choice to do evil is done outside the scope of God’s governing Will that controls the universe.

But, the consequence of your decision to do evil impacts the universe, not just yourself, so you have a universal chain reaction of uncontrolled events starting with the originating act of “allowed” disobedience.

Now you have to multiply the affect a billions of times, going back many generations, the permutations are virtually infinite, because according to scripture (all have sinned).

If all the constant sinning, which impacts not only the sinner but all those other victims, then virtually everything that happens, must happen outside the Will of God.

But if we believe that, then how can we simultaneously assert that God is in control, and “everything works together for good”?

If you follow your premise to its conclusion, then random chance must rule and God is not near, but at a distance, observing but not interfering.

Can Satan, or anyone else for that matter, thwart God’s absolute purpose?

So, I’m guessing that you don’t believe we have free will?
Could you make a case (ie, show me Bible references) for God governing the universe that tightly? Make sure you show where it says it is good that people go to hell.

 

[colliric]

Think about what you just said. If you have free will, then your choice to do evil is done outside the scope of God’s governing Will that controls the universe.

But, the consequence of your decision to do evil impacts the universe, not just yourself, so you have a universal chain reaction of uncontrolled events starting with the originating act of “allowed” disobedience.

Now you have to multiply the affect a billions of times, going back many generations, the permutations are virtually infinite, because according to scripture (all have sinned).

If all the constant sinning, which impacts not only the sinner but all those other victims, then virtually everything that happens, must happen outside the Will of God.

But if we believe that, then how can we simultaneously assert that God is in control, and “everything works together for good”?

If you follow your premise to its conclusion, then random chance must rule and God is not near, but at a distance, observing but not interfering.

Can Satan, or anyone else for that matter, thwart God’s absolute purpose?

(If you are wondering what this has to do with the original thread…
The answer to my question should be fairly straight forward for anyone familiar with the text of the scripture.)

For example: Isaiah 55:11

Free Will is not outside the scope of God’s will. It is God’s will we be diffrent and diverse… without free will that would not be possible. God is not a dictator, he allows us Free will because of that. Before we gained the knowledge of good and evil, free will was only a positive thing. This was because sinning was impossible because we did not know what it was.

But essentially after that was changed, his gift of free will turned into a self created problem for us. Regardless of this God will never take back the gift of free will, he desires it. But he will help us to fix the problem we caused, he does this by allowing us the gift of forgiveness, the help of the Holy Spirit and the ability to fix and correct our own sin though giving us “the power to be made the sons of God”(the free will, to accept the goodness of God, reject the evil of sin and be made by him, his sons… This is the Douay Rheims translation of John 1:12) after he changed his mind when he destroyed the world the first time(with the flood).

Genesis 8:21

And the Lord smelled a sweet savour, and said: I will no more curse the earth for the sake of man: for the imagination and thought of man’s heart are prone to evil from his youth: therefore I will no more destroy every living soul as I have done.

So you see God allows us, in our entirety as a Race, to sin and do evil things, because he affords us Free Will which is far greater a good, than those two evils.

He knows we made the mistake of introducing into our own hearts that flaw, He therefore afford us the ability to fix it ourselves, by ridding our sins and then allowing him to make us his sons, through our own repentance and the searching for forgiveness. He took bigger steps to help us when the first and only human, Mary, born sinless finally was created through the creative process.

He then used that being and proceeded to take bigger steps to help us when Christ was born and Christ became the last lamb we would ever need. Jesus took and continues to take all our sin away, when we allow him to and help him in doing it.

God tried fixing it himself before, through wiping out all the evil ones, and showing us his wrath… but then he realized his underlying love for us, and helping us get rid of our flaws, was the better way of doing it.

 

[cleargospel99]

Let me be sure I understand this clearly:

When you say man has “free will”, is that the same thing as saying man’s ability to make a decision for good or evil is completely autonomous from God’s divine decree?

If so, how do you reconcile this assumption with the apostolic teaching in Romans Chapters 8-9?
v/r
cg99

 

[JoeyWarren]

if there is not freewill, then it was not the serpent that caused the downfall of man, but God himself…?

 

[contramundum7]

The Roman Catholic Church is built on the assumption that in Matthew 16:13-19 Jesus appointed Peter the first pope and so founded His Church and established the papacy. If this is true, then all true Christians must become catholic. If it is false, the whole catholic religion is false and cultic and no true Christians could be identified with such a system. We must, then, search the Scriptures in order to know what is true. The Scriptures are not merely the writings of men, “But holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit” (II Peter 1:21). "All Scripture is inspired by God and useful for teaching, for reproving, for correcting, for instructing in justice; that the man of God may be perfect, equipped for every good work: (II Timothy 3:16-17). “Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words (the Bible) shall not pass away” (Matthew 24:35). Both Scripture and history testify to the authenticity, reliability, efficiency, and sufficiency of the Bible. Though some catholic translations are better than others, all are reliable enough for general study with catholics.
When Jesus, in Matthew 16:18, said, “Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” He used the demonstrative “this” (taute), pointing to Peter’s confession, “Thou are the Christ, the Son of the living God” as the rock. Jesus said, “Thou are Peter (petros, a stone - all believers are stones, see I Peter 2:5 and Ephesians 2:21), and upon this rock (petra, a huge rock foundation - the confession that Jesus is the Christ), I will build my church”. He did not promise to build His Church upon Peter. Jesus would not have trusted such a precious possession as His Church to the leadership of even one fallible man much less a whole succession of them. The pope of Rome is called the Vicar of the Son of God (Vicarius Filii Dei). In the Bible we find that the Holy Spirit, not a pope, was sent to take the place of Jesus on earth. That is what Vicar means. The Holy Spirit was given to guide us into all truth (John 16:7-15) and the Scriptures were given for teaching, for reproving, for correction, and for instruction (II Timothy 3:16). Christ did not leave His Church to human leadership. Jesus Himself is still the Head of His Church. He speaks to us through His infallible Word, the Holy Scriptures, by His ever present and infallible Holy Spirit.

U still haven’t answered my question: Does the beast (Satan):
speak out against abortion, homosexuality, divorce & remarriage, stem cell research, etc.??
Does the beast read more scripture straight from the Bible at every Mass than any other “church”???
Where do get this stupid idea that the Catholic Church is the anti-Christ??
If you had an answer, you would have given it by now…

 

[RNRobert]

U still haven’t answered my question: Does the beast (Satan):
speak out against abortion, homosexuality, divorce & remarriage, stem cell research, etc.??
Does the beast read more scripture straight from the Bible at every Mass than any other “church”???
Where do get this stupid idea that the Catholic Church is the anti-Christ??
If you had an answer, you would have given it by now…

He probably got the idea that the Pope is the antichrist and the Catholic Church the Whore of Babylon from the writings of “prophet” Ellen G. White.

 

[contramundum7]

He probably got the idea that the Pope is the antichrist and the Catholic Church the Whore of Babylon from the writings of “prophet” Ellen G. White.

Also, daro’s been suspended so he won’t be able to end any posts for a while (if ever).

thanks for that info. What was he suspended for?

 

[contramundum7]

Let me be sure I understand this clearly:

When you say man has “free will”, is that the same thing as saying man’s ability to make a decision for good or evil is completely autonomous from God’s divine decree?

If so, how do you reconcile this assumption with the apostolic teaching in Romans Chapters 8-9?
v/r
cg99

i don’t have those scriptures handy but i KNOW predestination is a belief from the devil… Why would Jesus have to die on a Cross if everything was predestined??
why do i continually make the choice to stay Catholic even when i have been treated badly by some members of hte Church and have one “beef” after another? I could leave like ot hers do… and in anger, have sometimes considered it… But i MAKE THE CHOICE 2 stay… Not because i want to (sometimes) but because that is where Jesus is…
If you knew what i know… you would be Catholic…

 

[RNRobert]

thanks for that info. What was he suspended for?

Probably for gems like this:

I am in the true church. Jesus lead me to the SDA.

I feel sorry for you all that have been duped in the Catholic Church. You are so blind.

and especially this one (note the bolded section):

I don’t feel any different after you cussing me.

** Satan’s church is the Catholic Church.**

Want me to leave? Fine but don’t say on Judgment Day that you didn’t know you were in the false church.

 

[contramundum7]

Probably for gems like this:

and especially this one (note the bolded section):

thanks… i had read some of those…

So what does it mean to be suspended? I mean, for how long is he not able to Post things here?

I guess i have this thing about censorship… i am not sure (at this point, with the limited info i have) that he should be suspended - i mean, just off the top of my head, that seems kind of wrong…
Or am i missing something??

 

[RNRobert]

thanks… i had read some of those…

So what does it mean to be suspended? I mean, for how long is he not able to Post things here?

I guess i have this thing about censorship… i am not sure (at this point, with the limited info i have) that he should be suspended - i mean, just off the top of my head, that seems kind of wrong…
Or am i missing something??

Not sure how long the suspension lasts. I guess it’s up to the moderators.

As for censorship, I believe the forum rules forbid making deragatory comments about the Catholic Church. I mean, it’s one thing for a non-Catholic to come here and say “I disagree with the Catholic Church because…” or “I think Catholicism is wrong because…” (talk about censorship, one these forums I’ve heard a number of Catholics say they were not allowed to participate in a Protestant forum simply because they were Catholic!), but daro did not come here to learn what we believe, or even to engage in a reasoned debate. No, he came here with an agenda, to “rescue” us from the “Whore of Babylon.” The discussions on these boards can get heated enough without types like him fanning the flames.

 

[contramundum7]

Not sure how long the suspension lasts. I guess it’s up to the moderators.

As for censorship, I believe the forum rules forbid making deragatory comments about the Catholic Church. I mean, it’s one thing for a non-Catholic to come here and say “I disagree with the Catholic Church because…” or “I think Catholicism is wrong because…” (talk about censorship, one these forums I’ve heard a number of Catholics say they were not allowed to participate in a Protestant forum simply because they were Catholic!), but daro did not come here to learn what we believe, or even to engage in a reasoned debate. No, he came here with an agenda, to “rescue” us from the “Whore of Babylon.” The discussions on these boards can get heated enough without types like him fanning the flames.

Thanks for that info. Now i understand - he broke the rules…
I still haven’t gotten my question answered from any Protestant… How can t he “Whore” or beast read so much scripture at Mass, uphold the dignity of all human life, promote life-long marriage, etc… Why would Satan want to do all that??
Will some Protester please answer that one??

 

[JoeyWarren]

Last year about this time, Sanduskey and I got suspended for 3 days.

It is more interesting to find out why a Catholic gets banned after a couple of thousand posts…

 

[cleargospel99]

i don’t have those scriptures handy but i KNOW predestination is a belief from the devil… Why would Jesus have to die on a Cross if everything was predestined??
why do i continually make the choice to stay Catholic even when i have been treated badly by some members of hte Church and have one “beef” after another? I could leave like ot hers do… and in anger, have sometimes considered it… But i MAKE THE CHOICE 2 stay… Not because i want to (sometimes) but because that is where Jesus is…
If you knew what i know… you would be Catholic…

I am catholic, but not Roman Catholic. I agree there is only one Truth, and it stands irrespective of our actions or opinions.

If predestination is a belief from the Devil why does Apostle Paul teach it?

I understand and agree that belief in predestination and the autonomous free will of man are mutually exclusive and contradict each other. What is the Apostolic teaching on this matter?

The Bible teaches that man’s will is either in bondage to sin or bondage to Christ, but it does not teach that man is a free agent.

The regenerate heart is a “slave to Christ”, but the unregenterate heart is a “slave to sin.”

Do you know about the Pelagian heresy? He taught that man was a free agent that could do good independent from God’s grace.

It would help if you had the scripture handy, and were more familiar with it: www.biblegateway.com. Otherwise you are just offering speculation, subjective private opinion, which I KNOW the Roman Church condemns.

Nobody can use the scripture against you, unless you position yourself against the scriptures.

The Bible teaches us that Jesus had to die on the Cross to fulfill the law of God.

v/r
cg99

 

[Spirithound]

If predestination is a belief from the Devil why does Apostle Paul teach it?

I understand and agree that belief in predestination and the autonomous free will of man are mutually exclusive and contradict each other. What is the Apostolic teaching on this matter?

The Bible teaches that man’s will is either in bondage to sin or bondage to Christ, but it does not teach that man is a free agent.

The regenerate heart is a “slave to Christ”, but the unregenerate heart is a “slave to sin.”

The Church does have a doctrine labelled “predestination”, but that word, like so many others, can have a couple dozen different definitions, depending on who you’re talking to.

I don’t think that “slave” and “bondage” are being used to mean fully the same things in each of the quotes above.

 

[cleargospel99]

The Church does have a doctrine labelled “predestination”, but that word, like so many others, can have a couple dozen different definitions, depending on who you’re talking to.

I don’t think that “slave” and “bondage” are being used to mean fully the same things in each of the quotes above.

24 different definitions for predestination (Wow!) Surely an infallible interpreter has the means to clear up such confusion.

What you “think” is just private speculation and is not really dealing with objective truth.

Surely somebody in the church of Rome should be conversant in the Letter to the Romans. No?

How do you reconcile autonomous man with Romans 8 and Romans 9?

v/r
cg99

 

[Chancellare]

Quote:
Originally Posted by cleargospel99 View Post
I may be mistaken, but it is my understanding that the Roman Church holds to the material sufficiency of the scripture

Reply:
No. That’s Sola Scriptura. Never in the Bible will you find the word “sufficient”. That’s the single most literal reason why Sola Scriptura is unbiblical but many have turned selectively blind on that.

With no rejoinder from Cleargospel, do we take it as his admission of error?

 

[cleargospel99]

Quote:
Originally Posted by cleargospel99 View Post
I may be mistaken, but it is my understanding that the Roman Church holds to the material sufficiency of the scripture

Reply:
No. That’s Sola Scriptura. Never in the Bible will you find the word “sufficient”. That’s the single most literal reason why Sola Scriptura is unbiblical but many have turned selectively blind on that.

With no rejoinder from Cleargospel, do we take it as his admission of error?

Not quite.

The fact is that the infallible church of Rome does not have a formal position on the matter. Some Romans adopt partim-partim, some adopt material sufficiency. Yes these to methodologies are contradictory, but that is something that as yet remains unresolved.

I think however either Patrick Madrid, or James Akin would take issue with your characterization of their position on material sufficiency as the same as Sola Scriptura. These are the leading apologists featured on CA and others. (I do try to read your stuff)

You can’t find Pope in the bible either. So do you reject that as well?

Actually the word “sufficient” occurs at least 5 times in the bible.
Kind of blows up your theory.

Here’s a homework assignment: Read Psalm 119, and then tell me how God thinks we should view the Holy Scripture.

**The only reason, you feel others can use your scripture against you, is for the simple reason that you really don’t know what it says. **

The scripture is unique because it is not a disjointed collections of wisdom writings, full of meaningless platitudes. It is a history of God’s revelation over 1600 years, and 40 authors It has a beginning a middle and an end. It all fits togther, there is no need to go looking for mysterious codes or allegories. It is not fiction.

It is plain enough, that the fundamental truths of the faith can be gleaned from a dedicated study of the text. This does not obviate the role of the church as the “pillar and foundation”.

The church is commanded to be obedient to the Word and subject to its correction from time to time.

 

[dessert]

It is His grace that is sufficient for us. 2CO 12;9
Pope, (papa) ‘bishop, pope’
from GK papas 'patriarch, bishop originally ’
“father” ’
bishops of Asia minor Bishop of Alexandria 250
Leo the great (440-461)