Why do non-Catholics try to use our Scriptures against us?

[dessert]

Ok I will start one as I have also pondered the meaning of this poem but have not started disclosing what I feel because I am not sure if it is a revelation thing so I will start it and you could divert it to thwarting God’s power, also the devil was the a big subject in the Passion but I think we talk about him too much I mean the non-C do alot. Just listen to a preacher on TV and they will invariably say devil a lot more than the Lord Jesus. Dessert

 

[Mannyfit75]

You are very close to the truth, but you overlook one small point.

Yes Jesus and his disciples used the Greek Septuagint, however, they do not quote from any of the deutero-canon. So your argument is a little week on that point.

2/3 of the NT cited from the Deutrocanonical.

That the Septuagint contained writings that were not scripture, alongside writings that were, is not news.{/quote]

Consider these links.

cathtruth.com/catholicbible/deut.htm

Obviously they recognized which writings possessed divine inspiration (that is: were God-breathed 2Tim3:14-17) and those that were not.

Remember Jesus and Paul confirm that the Jews
were the keepers of the Oracles of God, so they possessed, the “infallible” authority on that matter and they did not view the (approx 7 books + addl writings) deutero-canon as scripture.

Yet the Jews rejected Jesus in their Council of Jamnia in 90 C.E, they also excommunicated Christians from their synagogues. The Septuagint is written by 70 Helenistic Jews who translated the Hebrew Scripture into Greek. The Jews of the Dispersion lost their language of Hebrew and were accustom to speaking Greek.

Early in Christian history, many Converts were Greek speaking. Hence the Septuagint was used by the early Christians. We know the Gentile outnumber the Jewish Christian.

Jerome addressed this himself as he assembled the original Latin Vulgate.

The Reformers didn’t edit the Bible willy-nilly, they had good reason to separate the deutero-canon, just as Jerome had done, and many others. The Reformers were serious academics who were well versed in their Gospel and their church history.

Jerome recanted his remarks about the Deutrocanonical Books, and appeal to the authority of the Church which acknowledges the Council of Carthage in 396 AD. The Council was under the influence of St. Augustine. The list of the Canon of Books in the Council of Carthage are the same in the Council of Hippo, Council of Florence and the Council of Trent.

You need to learn more about history before you say that Jesus and Apostles didn’t use them.

 

[cleargospel99]

2/3 of the NT cited from the Deutrocanonical.

That the Septuagint contained writings that were not scripture, alongside writings that were, is not news.{/quote]

 

[cleargospel99]

Not so fast, if we are going to share the pie let’s see if we are eating the same fruit.

What was He( God) carrying? In the poem footprints in the sand there were only one set sometimes and at times there were two. Why?

I don’t know. Can you enlighten me?
v/r
cg99

 

[Spirithound]

Would you be so kind as to provide some examples of the NT writiers or Jesus actually quoting the deutero-canonical portions of the Septuagint texts?

Whether or not there are quotes from the Deuterocanon is irrelevant, as there are several Protocanonical books that are not quoted in the NT. What is relevant is that Jesus and the apostles quoted the LXX, and the LXX comes as a package.

 

[cleargospel99]

Whether or not there are quotes from the Deuterocanon is irrelevant, as there are several Protocanonical books that are not quoted in the NT. What is relevant is that Jesus and the apostles quoted the LXX, and the LXX comes as a package.

Then why does Jesus refer in Luke 24:44 to “the Law, the Prophets and the Psalms” and not to the other collections contained in the Septuagint?

Should I simply take your word for the truth, over an against the Word of the Lord Himself?

 

[distracted]

The Roman Catholic Church is the Mother and the Protestant Churches are the Harlots.

I like the way how Catholics claim the Bible was written by them. There was no such thing as a Catholic Church until after 476AD.

History lesson time.

During the Roman Empire guess who was the Pope? The Caesers. All the statues in Rome were original pagan gods. The statue of David was the god Pan. The staue of Peter was Zeus or Jupiter. The statue of Mary was Diana and so on. These statues are older than the Christian religion. When Constantine became “Christian” he didn’t stop worshiping pagan gods. He had his army march through the river and said now you are Christians. Ha all they were was wet Pagans. When the Roman Emperor moved the seat of Government from Rome to Turkey he left the Bishop of Rome in charge of Church matters. When there was some opisition to the Pope in the early 6th century the Pope asked the Roman army to wipe out three nations. In 538AD the last oposition to the Pope ended.

During 538AD to 1798AD the common man was not allowed to own a Bible or manuscripts that Rome didn’t authorise. You weren’t allowed to read(if you were lucky enought to be able to read, the people were kept dumb on purpose by the church) a Bible in any language other than Latin and only priests were allowed. This is why this period was called the Dark Ages. You were not allowed to question the Pope’s authority. People were kept in line through fear not love.

Take an RCIA class and then i will talk to you. otherwise, i won’t even read your Posts… You are ignorant of what the Catholic Church really is and teaches… very ignorant…

 

[distracted]

I am catholic, but not Roman Catholic. I agree there is only one Truth, and it stands irrespective of our actions or opinions.

If predestination is a belief from the Devil why does Apostle Paul teach it?

I understand and agree that belief in predestination and the autonomous free will of man are mutually exclusive and contradict each other. What is the Apostolic teaching on this matter?

The Bible teaches that man’s will is either in bondage to sin or bondage to Christ, but it does not teach that man is a free agent.

The regenerate heart is a “slave to Christ”, but the unregenterate heart is a “slave to sin.”

Do you know about the Pelagian heresy? He taught that man was a free agent that could do good independent from God’s grace.

It would help if you had the scripture handy, and were more familiar with it: www.biblegateway.com. Otherwise you are just offering speculation, subjective private opinion, which I KNOW the Roman Church condemns.

Nobody can use the scripture against you, unless you position yourself against the scriptures.

The Bible teaches us that Jesus had to die on the Cross to fulfill the law of God.

v/r
cg99

i just didn’t have the scirptures handy that u mention. I know the scriptures fairly well… And they tel me that predestination is a heretical belief. True, when people sin, they are slaves of sin an when they are regenerate, they are slaves to Christ… but at any time, a person has the choice to choose the opposite side…
maybe it would b good if you were to explain your definition of the term… (?).

 

[cleargospel99]

i just didn’t have the scirptures handy that u mention. I know the scriptures fairly well… And they tel me that predestination is a heretical belief. True, when people sin, they are slaves of sin an when they are regenerate, they are slaves to Christ… but at any time, a person has the choice to choose the opposite side…
maybe it would b good if you were to explain your definition of the term… (?).

Romans 9

10Not only that, but Rebekah’s children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[h] 13Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”*

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
**“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[j] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. **17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[k] **18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. **
19One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ "[l] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Ephesians 1

**4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world **to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he[c] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, **in accordance with the riches of God’s grace *8that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding.

 

[rtconstant]

2/3 of the NT cited from the Deutrocanonical.

Mannyfit,
Would you be so kind as to provide some examples of the NT writiers or Jesus actually quoting the deutero-canonical portions of the Septuagint texts?

Also, if you have Jerome’s recantation regarding the deutero-canonical books, could you cite that for the edification of all?

v/r
cg99

Here is a link that I found with many of the deuterocanonical allusions: freerepublic.com/focus/religion/767812/posts

Most allude to the teachings of the books instead of direct quotes however the volume does tend to show a general familiarity with the so called deuterocanonicals.

It should pointed out that Esther and Ecclesiastes also lack any explicit mention however would you suggest they should be excluded? This is the problem with the negative argument. Also if one but flips the argument then we notice the Enoch is quoted by Jude and yet it is not present in the Canon. Does this mean that the Canon as we’ve known it is in fact incomplete?

It should be noted that St. Justin Martyr makes note that the Christians possessed a different OT than the Jews. St. Iranaeus apparently also noted that Baruch was considered on par with Jeremiah and ascribed the authorship of Susanna to Daniel. Finally Origen acknowledges all of the deuterocanonicals as divine in his letter to Julius Africanus.

The Hebrew Canon was compiled a century after the birth of Christ and there simply were no longer any reliable Hebrew texts of the so called deuterocanonicals. They likely would have been added if available since the Septuagint was considered authoritative with them intact.

As for St. Jerome: I honestly don’t know if he ever officially recanted his personal views. I do know this though; his reluctance to include them actually lends weight to their inclusion. The fact that Jerome despite his personal misgivings still submitted to ecclesiastical tradition and included them in his work demonstrates the prestige that these writings held in the Church at large. It should also be noted that Jerome’s extensive time in Palestine and his reverence for the Hebrew tongue and the Hebrew manuscripts likely colored his opinions. This is understandable.

 

[distracted]

Romans 9

10Not only that, but Rebekah’s children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[h] 13Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”*

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
**“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[j] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. ***17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[k] **18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. **
19One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ "[l] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Ephesians 1

**4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world **to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he[c] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, **in accordance with the riches of God’s grace **8that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding.

None of these scriptures proves predestination. Frankly, i believe God only could harden Pharaoh’s heart if the Ph LET him… God undoubtedly did things 2 harden his heart, but he cooperated w/ the hardening…
And that is what the spiritual life is all about: cooperating or not cooperating with God.
Besides, Pharoah could have cried out to God in repentance @ the last min. as he was drowning… and God would have forgiven him… Man was given free will and God does not take it away from him…

 

[dessert]

I don’t know. Can you enlighten me?
v/r
cg99

We are never outside of God’s will because it is God’s will and the testament of Jesus Christ that we have the HOPE of eternal spiritual life. We still have the freedom of our own human will.
You would think this would make us free.It makes us not slaves but friends of God. A friend does not make a friend a slave.

So when we are in his arms with our arms around His waist or His neck our hand is on His Heart and our free will is linked to His.
But when we get down and stray away and let go of His hand we are exercising our free will again. And His hand is not a vise to keep us tight. He is still near, we are not out of his will because it is his will that we be free. Free to chose to return not only walking beside him but IN his footsteps, footprints following.There should not really be two sets of footprints, but one always.
God endures with much patience, he gave pharoh many chances to change his mind and only after much severity did his heart soften.

So the Gentiles respond but the Jews don’t, but if weren’t for the Jews there would be no Gentiles! Grace and Faith. The Gentiles are grafted onto the vine, thank God there is a vine.

Answer; God is carrying our free will that we give in obedience to His love and receive forgiveness for our sin.
Dessert

 

[PauloFreire2]

Fundamentalism replaces Christ with the Bible. It actually views the Bible as God. It’s idolatrous. Now, I mean this in a loving way, so don’t accuse me of being uncharitable.

 

[dessert]

Romans 9

10Not only that, but Rebekah’s children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[h] 13Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”*

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
**“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[j] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. ***17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[k] **18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. **
19One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ "[l] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Ephesians 1

**4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world **to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he[c] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, **in accordance with the riches of God’s grace **8that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding.

Are you feeling God has a predestined something for you to do?
Dessert

 

[Spirithound]

Then why does Jesus refer in Luke 24:44 to “the Law, the Prophets and the Psalms” and not to the other collections contained in the Septuagint?

Should I simply take your word for the truth, over an against the Word of the Lord Himself?

Colliric already answered this question for you in post 281. Scroll up.

 

[cleargospel99]

Colliric already answered this question for you in post 281. Scroll up.

Read 282 and you will see that he did not answer it fully.

Now Mannyfit backed up the truck and unloaded a bunch of stuff the might be quotes from the d-c, but I am working through it and so far, nothing would qualify as a direct quote. Now the Apocryphal writings mimic actual scripture, so one can readily see that the authors might crib some of the messages already addressed in the OT. However if you were to apply this standard, then you could make the same argument for the Book of Mormon being quoted by the Aposltes. Which we would agree cannot be true.

Yes there are some similar ideas but nothing so far as I can tell that would qualify as a direct quote.

When the Apostles or Jesus refered to scripture, they usually said “As it is written:”

However, my research is not over and may take some time. For the moment, I have yet to see definitive proof that Christ or the Apostles regarded the Apocrypha itself as scripture.

I will let you know when I do.

 

[cleargospel99]

Are you feeling God has a predestined something for you to do?
Dessert

Indeed

Philippians 1:3-6

3I thank my God every time I remember you. 4In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy 5because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, 6being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

 

[colliric]

You are very close to the truth, but you overlook one small point.

Yes Jesus and his disciples used the Greek Septuagint, however, they do not quote from any of the deutero-canon. So your argument is a little week on that point.

That the Septuagint contained writings that were not scripture, alongside writings that were, is not news.

Obviously they recognized which writings possessed divine inspiration (that is: were God-breathed 2Tim3:14-17) and those that were not.

Remember Jesus and Paul confirm that the Jews
were the keepers of the Oracles of God, so they possessed, the “infallible” authority on that matter and they did not view the (approx 7 books + addl writings) deutero-canon as scripture.

Jerome addressed this himself as he assembled the original Latin Vulgate.

The Reformers didn’t edit the Bible willy-nilly, they had good reason to separate the deutero-canon, just as Jerome had done, and many others. The Reformers were serious academics who were well versed in their Gospel and their church history.

Well we better chuck out the book of Esther then, because that’s not quoted either!

Oh and Judges, Ruth, Song of Solomon, Ecclesiastes, Ezra-Nehemlah, Chronicles. They’re all gone under this new rule of everything that’s Canon in the OT must be quoted directly in the NT…

Sorry but your arguement against is quite silly.

 

[Spirithound]

Read 282 and you will see that he did not answer it fully.

You are very close to the truth, but you overlook one small point.

Yes Jesus and his disciples used the Greek Septuagint, however, they do not quote from any of the deutero-canon. So your argument is a little week on that point.

On the contrary, the fact that the deuterocanon is not quoted in the NT is irrelevant, because Ezra, Nehemiah, Ester, Ruth, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Obadiah, and Nahum are also not quoted. Are these books any less Scriptural? As I said earlier, the LXX is to be taken as a package, deuterocanon and all.

That the Septuagint contained writings that were not scripture, alongside writings that were, is not news.

Obviously they recognized which writings possessed divine inspiration (that is: were God-breathed 2Tim3:14-17) and those that were not.

Proof please?

Remember Jesus and Paul confirm that the Jews were the keepers of the Oracles of God, so they possessed, the “infallible” authority on that matter and they did not view the (approx 7 books + addl writings) deutero-canon as scripture.

Jesus and Paul confirm that the Jews were the keepers of the Oracles of God. When the Jews rejected the New Covenant, they lost their claim to the Oracles. Jesus said to the Samaritan woman that salvation is from the Jews, but do you observe all of the disciplines and rules that the Jews do? I think not. That was the whole point of the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15), that we are no longer bound by the Jewish Law, and the Church that Jesus founded is separate and autonomous from the Jews who refused to believe. And actually, they did view the LXX including the deuterocanon as Scripture, until they saw that the early Christians (read Catholics) were converting many Jews using the LXX, and specifically these books. Check out this article catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0409fea4.asp

Jerome addressed this himself as he assembled the original Latin Vulgate.

Regardless of Jerome’s personal opinion, he yielded willingly to the authority that he knew Jesus had appointed to the Pope.

 

[colliric]

Read 282 and you will see that **he did not answer it fully.
**
Now Mannyfit backed up the truck and unloaded a bunch of stuff the might be quotes from the d-c, but I am working through it and so far, nothing would qualify as a direct quote. Now the Apocryphal writings mimic actual scripture, so one can readily see that the authors might crib some of the messages already addressed in the OT. However if you were to apply this standard, then you could make the same argument for the Book of Mormon being quoted by the Aposltes. Which we would agree cannot be true.

Yes there are some similar ideas but nothing so far as I can tell that would qualify as a direct quote.

When the Apostles or Jesus refered to scripture, they usually said “As it is written:”

However, my research is not over and may take some time. For the moment, I have yet to see definitive proof that Christ or the Apostles regarded the Apocrypha itself as scripture.

I will let you know when I do.

yes I did, your follow up post is speculative, it is not refutation. I showed how Jesus saying “the Law, The prophets and psalms” applies quite validly to the Septuagint.