Why do orthodox Lutherans reject epjscopacy?

[hn160]

It is my understanding, that in Germany which wasn’t a real country as we know it in modern times but a bunch of princely states of which a couple were Electors of the Holy Roman Empire. Since none of the bishops joined the reformation and would be the head of the reformation churches, the Prince of each state that suported reformation became the head of the church, much like Henry VIII and the Church of England. The superintendents were appointed to oversee the what the various churches were teaching and the training of pastors.
I think that the English District of the LC-MS, it’s head is a Bishop. I personally wouldn’t mind if the LC-MS would change it’s polity.

 

[Ad_Crucem]

Maybe…just maybe…this is your purgatory for not believing in purgatory…

On a serious note…thanks for the replies…and Jon too.

LOL!

Well, as I will shortly not be Lutheran, I won’t be in purgatory for not believing in purgatory but I still won’t believe in purgatory…or something like that, ha!

 

[andrewstx]

The problem there is, is ELCA really Lutheran? Is TEC really Anglican? Seeing as the former has downplayed the Book of Concord, and the latter abandoned both the Prayer Book and Thirty Nine Articles, and both are rather liberal now even about Holy Scripture itself, what exactly will this merger look like?

Well I can’t speak to ELCA since they weren’t around when I was visiting an ALC and LCA church.

But I ended up in TEC for over 15 years and that too was before the schisms.

They did not abandon the BCP they revised it. You don’t worship according to the 1549 BCP do you? It is the same principle, except the last official UK revision was in 1662. Did the CofE “abandon” their BCP in 1662?

The 39 articles have not been removed, they were placed in a different part of the BCP, and frankly I’m glad. The articles were far too Zwinglistic and Calvinist for my taste.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Perhaps because many posters are Americans and that there are several LCMS posters on Catholic Answers Forum, a misunderstanding about Lutheranism occurs. The norm in worldwide Lutheranism is episcopacy. Aside from several synods in America [Missouri and Wisconsin], the vast majority of Lutherans have bishops and most adhere to apostolic succession including the ELCA.

Does that mean the vast majority of Lutherans are not confessional?

 

[pablope]

It is my u

I think that the English District of the LC-MS, it’s head is a Bishop. I personally wouldn’t mind if the LC-MS would change it’s polity.

What do you mean by “polity”?

 

[pablope]

LOL!

Well, as I will shortly not be Lutheran, I won’t be in purgatory for not believing in purgatory but I still won’t believe in purgatory…or something like that, ha!

Did not realize you are going orthodox.

Anyway…better bring a lot of quarters…you know…toll for the toll houses…

 

[Ad_Crucem]

Did not realize you are going orthodox.

Anyway…better bring a lot of quarters…you know…toll for the toll houses…

Just cookies

 

[Ad_Crucem]

What do you mean by “polity”?

Form of church governance. Episcopal, congregational, presbyterian, etc.

 

[ndismyhome]

EvangelCatholic;10966139American Lutherans [minus LCMS:

have followed the Provoo Communion of European Lutherans and Anglicans; thus the full communion and eventual merger of Lutherans and Episcopalians in the U.S/ Canada.

I know that there are a number of Lutherans who, in trying to recover Lutheran liturgical forms that have been long abandoned in favor of “seeker” services, have given themselves wholly into Episcopal liturgics and piety.

A few of my colleagues have even expressed their desire to merge with Episcopal church. I joke with a few of my more Lutheran colleagues that we are going to be part of the American Branch of the Western Presby-Luther-palian Church, inc. eventually.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

I know that there are a number of Lutherans who, in trying to recover Lutheran liturgical forms that have been long abandoned in favor of “seeker” services, have given themselves wholly into Episcopal liturgics and piety.

A few of my colleagues have even expressed their desire to merge with Episcopal church. I joke with a few of my more Lutheran colleagues that we are going to be part of the American Branch of the Western Presby-Luther-palian Church, inc. eventually.

Father,

When I was a seminarian, the idea of full communion with Episcopalians was a dream. There may be less enthusiasm for full communion with Presbyterians due to more pronounced differences concerning the Eucharist. But what I see happening is a movement to include rather than exclude. The first thing Lutherans and Anglicans did after embracing the Provoo Communion was to celebrate Mass together; that is the priority and command.

 

[ndismyhome]

Father,

When I was a seminarian, the idea of full communion with Episcopalians was a dream. There may be less enthusiasm for full communion with Presbyterians due to more pronounced differences concerning the Eucharist. But what I see happening is a movement to include rather than exclude. The first thing Lutherans and Anglicans did after embracing the Provoo Communion was to celebrate Mass together; that is the priority and command.

While communion is a good and noble thing to strive for, I find that most of those in favor of it on our end functionally subordinate our Lutheran theology and practice in favor of Episcopal/ Anglican forms. It seems that the Lutheran desire for union is manifesting as anglo-philia.

 

[JonNC]

While communion is a good and noble thing to strive for, I find that most of those in favor of it on our end functionally subordinate our Lutheran theology and practice in favor of Episcopal/ Anglican forms. It seems that the Lutheran desire for union is manifesting as anglo-philia.

Something we pesky Missourians are not inclined to.

Jon

 

[ndismyhome]

Something we pesky Missourians are not inclined to.

Jon

I have to say, I didn’t realize the depth of the loss in the ELCA of our liturgical heritage until I stumbled onto the Ft. Wayne seminary. Gottesdienst and other groups have really opened my eyes, especially as concerns our attempts to recover liturgy by assuming Episcopal practice.

 

[JonNC]

Father,

When I was a seminarian, the idea of full communion with Episcopalians was a dream. There may be less enthusiasm for full communion with Presbyterians due to more pronounced differences concerning the Eucharist. But what I see happening is a movement to include rather than exclude. The first thing Lutherans and Anglicans did after embracing the Provoo Communion was to celebrate Mass together; that is the priority and command.

The pronounced differences indeed! Altar and pulpit fellowship with a reformed group should have as a baseline prerequisite nothing less than agreement with these three words: “ist ist ist”. It is not exclusion to expect partners to recognize UAC Article X.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

I have to say, I didn’t realize the depth of the loss in the ELCA of our liturgical heritage until I stumbled onto the Ft. Wayne seminary. Gottesdienst and other groups have really opened my eyes, especially as concerns our attempts to recover liturgy by assuming Episcopal practice.

I really like Anglican liturgy, by why on Earth would any Lutheran anywhere be willing to give up Lutheran liturgy? It doesn’t make sense to me. If doctrinal agreement with the Anglicans is attainable , I am certain it would not require the sacrificing of the distinctive Lutheran mass.

Jon

Jon

 

[steido01]

I have to say, I didn’t realize the depth of the loss in the ELCA of our liturgical heritage until I stumbled onto the Ft. Wayne seminary. Gottesdienst and other groups have really opened my eyes, especially as concerns our attempts to recover liturgy by assuming Episcopal practice.

I always look forward to receiving my copy in the mail. It’s comforting to read that our distinctively Lutheran traditions are making a bit of a comeback.

 

[benjohnson]

I really like Anglican liturgy, by why on Earth would any Lutheran anywhere be willing to give up Lutheran liturgy?

I really feel at home in the Anglican liturgy, but the Lutheran liturgy can just as beautiful and sublime, and it has it’s own virtues. Snuffing out either liturgy would diminish the light of the Gospel in my opinion.

 

[Stilldreamn]

I always look forward to receiving my copy in the mail. It’s comforting to read that our distinctively Lutheran traditions are making a bit of a comeback.

Me too! Why is it not surprising that a siginificant percentage of Lutherans here are subscribers?

 

[EvangelCatholic]

While communion is a good and noble thing to strive for, I find that most of those in favor of it on our end functionally subordinate our Lutheran theology and practice in favor of Episcopal/ Anglican forms. It seems that the Lutheran desire for union is manifesting as anglo-philia.

Not sure I entirely understand “anglo-philia” with Lutheranism. I have attended joint Lutheran-Episcopal Eucharists, mostly ordinations. The historic Mass was celebrated and it appears both Lutherans and Episcopalians were happy with the worship. I live in the metro New York region where the two denominations have much in common.

It is my understanding that the Provoo accord was initiated by Lutherans in Finland. The LWF gathered other national Lutheran churches in Europe in the effort to reach out to Anglicans.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

The pronounced differences indeed! Altar and pulpit fellowship with a reformed group should have as a baseline prerequisite nothing less than agreement with these three words: “ist ist ist”. It is not exclusion to expect partners to recognize UAC Article X.

Jon

We have had this discussion before and I appreciate your point of view. In-fact, I did not agree with full communion with Presbyterians when it was first being considered because of our Lutheran position on the Real Presence. What I see happening, however, is the influence of the Church-Catholic that full communion provides. Not every Lutheran attending Mass believes or understands that Christ in fully present despite church teaching. I am sure that there are Presbyterians, like nearly all Anglicans, who embrace the mystical physical eucharistic belief yet their confessions may reject it.

To me, it is not surprising that the holy Church is moving toward reunion and ironically it is Lutherans who seem to be leading the way.